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 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.

Well there is tons of bad and rewritten fluff in the 40k universe. I wouldn't put the blame entirely on Guilliman.

I will agree that rules wise Gman is the worst thing that could have happened to the space marine codex. His rules really put a dampner on how good they can make a space marine units because if it can reroll hits and wounds just for standing next to an untargetable character...that is just silly.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.

I hope they all return.

Lemondish wrote:

I hope they all return.

Can't you just play HH?

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

I hope they all return.

Can't you just play HH?

Can't you just not play with the characters, only play with people who don't use them, play anything before 7.5, or set your games/narratives either before Gathering Storm or in some random area in Imperium Nihilus? /sarcasm/

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

I hope they all return.

Can't you just play HH?

Can't you just not play with the characters, only play with people who don't use them, play anything before 7.5, or set your games/narratives either before Gathering Storm or in some random area in Imperium Nihilus? /sarcasm/

Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.

 Stux wrote:
Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.

I used it to show that it was just as valid as Crimson's first comment, but I assumed that Crimson's comment was made in jest. Just showing that my comment was just as serious as his.

I mean, could you imagine seriously suggesting to someone to stop playing 40k because they preferred the way the story was going, and you personally didn't like the way the story was going?
That would be pretty harsh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.

I used it to show that it was just as valid as Crimson's first comment, but I assumed that Crimson's comment was made in jest. Just showing that my comment was just as serious as his.

I mean, could you imagine seriously suggesting to someone to stop playing 40k because they preferred the way the story was going, and you personally didn't like the way the story was going?
That would be pretty harsh.

Good point! Yeah, that would be ridiculous.

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

I hope they all return.

Can't you just play HH?

Can't you just play narrative and stipulate no primarchs?

It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.

 Crimson wrote:
It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.

Now 40k also involves Primarchs. You might not like it, which is fine. As you pointed out, there's other historical eras to explore, and even geographic ones, where you can avoid the current 40k.

Personally, I think having the two eras being linked makes the universe feel coherent. There's fun and narrative story in being able to trace an event that happened in M31 and seeing the consequences, conflicts, and causality come through in M41 is good, in my opinion.

One thing I would prefer is that Bobby G wasn't such a crutch to fix how kinda meh Space Marines, particularly non Primaris are if you want a chance against the more competitive lists other factions can take. I don't mind him being back, I do mind that he is treated as an assumed auto include.

I feel like the sarcasm tag was necessary, most of these posts can be read in a sassy tone

Also on the note of HH I'd say GW wants to mimic its success. We all know FW is more expensive than GW, which is already expensive all things considered. You want a 30k army? You could probably get 2 40k armies for that price. Well I'm from Canada so definitely.

Anyway point is HH is basically the same but strictly marines with primarchs while being way more expensive.

 Crimson wrote:
It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.

Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.

As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).

Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.

When only one really and its only on RG

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

If it makes you feel any better, I can guarantee you that when Russ gets a model and new lore I will hate every bit of it.

#vengeanceforprospero

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.

When only one really and its only on RG

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

If it makes you feel any better, I can guarantee you that when Russ gets a model and new lore I will hate every bit of it.

#vengeanceforprospero

If Russ doesn't come back with an optional beard I'll be just as salty.

He just looks too clean compared to his boys with no facial hair.

Then again I feel like Dorn needs a mustache so maybe I'm just a hair-etic.

I'm half-hoping he comes back completely twisted by the warp and barely clinging to his humanity but I know we can't expect anything cool out of the Space Wolves.

I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.

Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.

As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."

If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is narratively much more interesting than the first.

GW understood this correctly with WFB, the empire had no chances to win, and the setting had lost its interest. So they actually let the bad guy win the round and went to the next one, where the situation is extremely bad, but at least a fight is possible.

GW has let chaos win the round (No idea why chaos fans say that narratively they didn't get anything from Gathering storm, they actually won!) and went to the next one again, with the galaxy split in two by a huge warp rift.
Gman and primaris may be not doing much for the imperium, but is a sign that something is changing and i like it. We may come to a point when the imperium can actually fight an impossibly uphill battle (which is interesting) instead of just delaying the inevitable (boring, at least for those who don't play imperium).

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.

Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.

As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."

If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is narratively much more interesting than the first.

GW understood this correctly with WFB, the empire had no chances to win, and the setting had lost its interest. So they actually let the bad guy win the round and went to the next one, where the situation is extremely bad, but at least a fight is possible.

GW has let chaos win the round (No idea why chaos fans say that narratively they didn't get anything from Gathering storm, they actually won!) and went to the next one again, with the galaxy split in two by a huge warp rift.
Gman and primaris may be not doing much for the imperium, but is a sign that something is changing and i like it. We may come to a point when the imperium can actually fight an impossibly uphill battle (which is interesting) instead of just delaying the inevitable (boring, at least for those who don't play imperium).

So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.

And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.

I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.

As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.

Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.

AoS narrative is much better in this regard. You have the forces of Sigmar which get some meaningful wins, but this also means that they can be handed some quite big blows. This is how a war of this scale should be, give and take punches all the time. If you don't allow one of the sides to be able to recover some ground, you also become unable to take ground from it (40K for the last 20 years).
Gathering storm is the first time that the Chaos manages to score a significant win with real effects on the imperium.
This means that to keep the narrative going, you must also allow imperium to score big sometimes, even if in the end they are always the underdogs.

And what is this stuff about "never ending supply of warriors"? I guess you don't know much about AoS right? Only Chaos (as always) has an ending amount of daemons to use.

tneva82 wrote:So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.

Unique doesn't mean enjoyable. While 40k was enjoyable for a time, the fatigue of the setting never changing and the constant "there's no hoooooooooope" being about as subtle as a freight train was weighing me down.

While what they have done is more character based, it's not "dime a dozen" any more than the original was uniquely grimdark. In fact, the main things that I see about 40k that make it unique compared to other sci-fi franchises is the constant ultraviolence, the barbaric methods employed by all sides, the aesthetic design, and the quasi-religious aspects. That is unchanged with Gathering Storm.

And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.

And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)

Adeptus Astarte is copyright able so they dont need Primaris for that purpose.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

tneva82 wrote:So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.

Unique doesn't mean enjoyable. While 40k was enjoyable for a time, the fatigue of the setting never changing and the constant "there's no hoooooooooope" being about as subtle as a freight train was weighing me down.

While what they have done is more character based, it's not "dime a dozen" any more than the original was uniquely grimdark. In fact, the main things that I see about 40k that make it unique compared to other sci-fi franchises is the constant ultraviolence, the barbaric methods employed by all sides, the aesthetic design, and the quasi-religious aspects. That is unchanged with Gathering Storm.

And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.

And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)

thing is, a static setting gets stale after awhile, and 40k was getting stale, it was the same old story day in day out, I mean, is it any wonder that so many of the 40k stories where underwhelming from a rules POV. Let's face it, you could write a pre-GS 40k story with a friken mad libs generator.

"The Imperial world of *planet name here* is important because it is a rare source of *insert some Important tool of war* the planet is under threat by *enter antagionist faction* and must be defended by *enter IoM Faction(s)* .. OR THE IMPERIUM IS DOOOOOOOMED!... I mean it's doomed anyway! but it'll be doomed sooner... DOOOOOM!"

the post gathering storm era at least gives GW a chance to mix things up a little. heck the Indomatus crusade actually let's the IoM go on the offensive for once, sure it's to take back territory lost during the time jump but... it's SOMETHING.
Belive me, I can sympathize not liking where the wristers/devs are taking the storyline, I stopped following Battletech because I disliked where they where going with that. but change can be good, and in the case of 40k, I suspect change is nesscary as there are elements of the setting that proably need an over haul.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

tneva82 wrote:And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.

And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)

For me the issue is that old 40k was a setting big enough to contain stories, AOS and new 40k seems to be going for a grand narrative with an accompanying setting. The difference is that stories or grand narratives cant be static like a setting can, in fact, a setting should be static to some degree to allow the smaller stories to take place in it. A narrative on the other hand is meaningless if there is no change after it's conclusion. This creates issues for example AOS where the story is basically a cosmic tug-of-war between good and evil that can never actually affect any of the sides in a meaningful way, because the story is tied to wargaming-setting. And if it actually had some meaningful change it would hurt the settings function as a wargame backdrop.

Old 40k on the other hand was a setting, so the static nature of it was a feature, not a bug.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm half-hoping he comes back completely twisted by the warp and barely clinging to his humanity but I know we can't expect anything cool out of the Space Wolves.

That would indeed a way to make it a least somewhat cool, but we been over this before, and most primarch fans don't like the idea. They want the primarchs to return pretty much as they were, and continue like the last ten thousand years really didn't happen.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I would prefer is that Bobby G wasn't such a crutch to fix how kinda meh Space Marines, particularly non Primaris are if you want a chance against the more competitive lists other factions can take. I don't mind him being back, I do mind that he is treated as an assumed auto include.

So much this.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.

When only one really and its only on RG

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

True - Russ will be a Giant super wolfen riding a two headed super wolf pulling a wolf chariots full of wolves but apparenrtly thats all in keeping with the older fluff and themes.....

The Lion will just be a giant dick to everyone because thats his only thing that he does.

and somehow RG will still be the one everyone hates..

If anyone will be a shinning light of super awesomeness it will be a Space Wolf. I miss the old Wolves.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.

As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).

Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.

Jesus Christ, the margin of missing the point here is utterly colossal. The daemon Primarchs are not the same, they've always been there, they don't violate the theme of chaos. And comparing Lord Solar Macharius to a primarch. Wow! Macharius was a notmal man, not a demigod annointed by gods, who rise to the occassion, did a bunch of important stuff, and died. He is exactly the sort of person this Primarch business overshadows. And this was never about the tabletop, people can use the special characters for all I care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.

Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.

As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."

If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is

Whilst I utterly disagree, at least I can understand this viewpoint. You're not trying to pretend it was not a significant change, so we only disagree on whether it was a good change.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.

As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).

Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.

Jesus Christ, the margin of missing the point here is utterly colossal. The daemon Primarchs are not the same, they've always been there, they don't violate the theme of chaos. And comparing Lord Solar Macharius to a primarch. Wow! Macharius was a notmal man, not a demigod annointed by gods, who rise to the occassion, did a bunch of important stuff, and died. He is exactly the sort of person this Primarch business overshadows. And this was never about the tabletop, people can use the special characters for all I care.

No I think you are missing his point - you claim the story has changed but w are saying it has Not - its just a different character trying to do stuff.

Did 40k "Break" for you the last time one man, Vandire took control over the whole Imperium?

Or Living Saints walked amngst the Mortals or the Necron fluff completely changed their entire bak story and that of the galaxy?

In fact when you read anything written by Matt Ward? Especially see Grey Knights.

If not why not?

We will see what GeeDubs can make of the current changes, it maybe for the better or for the worse, execution is what matters.

Narratively to me 40k has never been about "good guys" and "bad guys". Not about good and evil fighting for the fate of the universe. It's just a setting that takes place in last days of an old crumbling empire, slowly torn apart by it's own unsustainability and the new powers coming to fill the power vacuum. At best various people and cultures wish to spin a narrative of some grand struggle, maybe even try to create one for their own perceived benefit, people like the Tau or Emperor who see the world as one of binary choices.

If anything 40k is a satirical cautionary tale about empires and dictators. There is hope in this universe, but it's just not for the trouble making factions we see and play, but for the rest of the galaxy, for those countless civilizations, human or otherwise, who mostly just mind their own business, and so never get models or attention.

I do fear that 40k, while superficially looking the same, is loosing some of that deeper meaning for the sake of shallow fanficcy-ness that GS and much of the 8ed fluff have been.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.

When only one really and its only on RG

When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".

True - Russ will be a Giant super wolfen riding a two headed super wolf pulling a wolf chariots full of wolves but apparenrtly thats all in keeping with the older fluff and themes.....

The Lion will just be a giant dick to everyone because thats his only thing that he does.

and somehow RG will still be the one everyone hates..

If anyone will be a shinning light of super awesomeness it will be a Space Wolf. I miss the old Wolves.

You practically read my mind! Except I don't miss old wolves. I never liked the fact most their dudes don't wear helmets.