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 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'd say the tier should be Tzeentch > Eldar/Thousand Sons > Normal Grey Knights (Their powers are often described in books as just manifestations of their emotions, not always something they control perfectly) > Librarians/Sorcerers > Imperial Psykers and the like.

I'd actually put Eldar much lower than you did; the thing is that Tzeentch, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights are entirely incapable of running an army without multiple psykers, while Eldar could if they so wished not run any psykers at all. The three truly psychic-focused factions depend on having a large diversity of powers because their HQ options see diminishing returns and there's no real way to get around that. Eldar, on the other hand, can just run Autarchs instead once they have enough Farseers and Warlocks.

You guys are definitely forgetting Nids. They have highly intense psychic abilities, and the shadow lets them win almost every psychic battle by default. The lore on things like the Maleceptor is pretty insane, that thing is like a bio-engineered psychic brain in a shell 1000x the size of a regular psykers brain.

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, I agree...and it's part of the issue with Guardians having a new WS/BS of 3+. They become better in many instances than Aspect Warriors which is simply wrong. You might not webway portal them if they were BS 4+, etc. You've all but murdered the reason for having Dire Avengers...where they could be genuinely decent troops if Guardians were slightly worse. It wouldn't hurt to drop a point or two on the Dire Avengers though. 12 is pushing it for a Toughness 3 model with 4+ armour...

It's the same reason you saw a big rise in Space Marine Scouts when they inexplicably became as good as Marines with a similar stat-line bump. Why remove the steps or tiers in an army? They exist for a reason. To provide options and more considerations when making an army.

I think the argument in a White Dwarf at the time was that some players found it hard to remember when units have divergent stat lines in their army. I don't know if this is true or not - but then people struggled with the to hit/to wound charts for decades, so maybe I can see it.

Really though - infantry guardians just don't make much sense in the fluff and never have. If you were a dying race you wouldn't put civilians in harms way. You certainly wouldn't give them next to no protection and a gun which from 3rd edition (might be wrong here) has had the same range as a pistol, and so guarantees your opponent can charge you if you can shoot them.
Also putting Guardians back to WS/BS 4+ would also (in theory, I guess you could argue technology helps) effect bikers and all the vehicles. In which case the army goes from being elite to being more like Guard or Tau. Which doesn't really fit the fluff feel.

Different stats don't change the fact guardian defenders/dire avengers occupy the same space. Every edition one is better than the other - so you are likely to use that one unless you really fancy a change.

Very little faith Banshees or Scorpions can be fixed without making them incredibly cheap - and even then I suspect there would be better options unless you can have them jog across the field Ork style. As I see it we have had multiple editions handing Banshees out buffs and they still don't work.

The problem with assault is that there is critical mass. Light assault is garbage in 8th. Given the difficulties/expense of getting across the table, charging, taking overwatch and then your opponent can just withdraw you can't kill a few guys once you get there. It might be obnoxious but 30 Boyz work. 15 Genestealers with a good chance of a turn 1 charge work. 5-10 Banshees never will.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'd say the tier should be Tzeentch > Eldar/Thousand Sons > Normal Grey Knights (Their powers are often described in books as just manifestations of their emotions, not always something they control perfectly) > Librarians/Sorcerers > Imperial Psykers and the like.

I'd actually put Eldar much lower than you did; the thing is that Tzeentch, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights are entirely incapable of running an army without multiple psykers, while Eldar could if they so wished not run any psykers at all. The three truly psychic-focused factions depend on having a large diversity of powers because their HQ options see diminishing returns and there's no real way to get around that. Eldar, on the other hand, can just run Autarchs instead once they have enough Farseers and Warlocks.

I was mostly quoting lore wise, but using it as a parallel for game purposes. I'd also add Tyranids, as mentioned, to the second tier.

Tyel wrote:

Also putting Guardians back to WS/BS 4+ would also (in theory, I guess you could argue technology helps) effect bikers and all the vehicles. In which case the army goes from being elite to being more like Guard or Tau. Which doesn't really fit the fluff feel.

To be fair, it worked fine for 20+ years and 5 editions. Jetbikes, Falcons, Wave Serpents, War Walkers etc all found extensive use through the editions at their lower skill ratings. I never minded my War Walkers and Wave Serpents being BS3 personally.

Their specialness came from the other abilities of these units (holofields, Fast vehicles, Skimmer status, advanced weaponry, Jetbikes vs Bikes, etc), the stat boost in 6E really felt like it was just feeding the tired "elves are superior" trope for its own sake. At least to me

It also fit nicely with the buffing nature of many of the seers powers. The 6th change was juat a clear pet army buff from a designer without self control.

Also, remember in 2nd edition, almost every vehicle had proper targeters, so they were equivalent of BS4...but I agree, BS3 would have been fine with me. Points reduced as appropriate (or allow simple wargear on the vehicles at an added cost, etc.)

One other minor gripe about Eldar...excusing for the moment that Psykers became hapless combatants....their psychic weapons need work. Nothing says "bitch" like a psychic force weapon with 0 AP.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Also putting Guardians back to WS/BS 4+ would also (in theory, I guess you could argue technology helps) effect bikers and all the vehicles. In which case the army goes from being elite to being more like Guard or Tau. Which doesn't really fit the fluff feel.

To be fair, it worked fine for 20+ years and 5 editions. Jetbikes, Falcons, Wave Serpents, War Walkers etc all found extensive use through the editions at their lower skill ratings. I never minded my War Walkers and Wave Serpents being BS3 personally.

Their specialness came from the other abilities of these units (holofields, Fast vehicles, Skimmer status, advanced weaponry, Jetbikes vs Bikes, etc), the stat boost in 6E really felt like it was just feeding the tired "elves are superior" trope for its own sake. At least to me

For more than 20 years Assault Marines couldn't benefit from their jump packs in the charge phase either, but once you take that away the angry grumbling begins.

Face it, no one likes the nerfs back down to what things "used to" be like. Which is a shame because sometimes it's a lot more balanced than what we currently have with some things.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Thousand Sons

- Drop Rubrics to base of 13

Are you kidding?

2+ save against 1 damage weapons
5++
Ignores penalty for moving and shooting heavy
Default gun is 4, -2, 1
Aspiring sorcerer has a 1/d3 smite
Extra attacks against Imperium on 6+
And an expanded wargear list with little restrictions

If this was 13 points then your regular marines would need to be 6 points.

- The 2+ is only a bit better than what marines get in cover anyway.
- The 5++ almost never comes into play.
- You almost never want them in melee so DTTFE is pretty moot.
- No natural morale mitigation.
- Perils on casting can absolutely obliterate the unit so I always need to save a reroll for that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "an expanded wargear list with little restrictions".

I need 10 models for the heavy. Warpflamers are nearly impossible to use.

Note : I'm not really complaining about them. Saving 60 points isn't going to break me. It would just open more lists heavy on them.

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

And playing against Grey Knights with Daemons, every unit being able to cast a Smite on 5+ that is an automatic 3 MW is absurd. Just absurd.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

And playing against Grey Knights with Daemons, every unit being able to cast a Smite on 5+ that is an automatic 3 MW is absurd. Just absurd.

Don't daemons just have a strat to bring the unit back if killed by a GK unit?

Eldar can't be BS4+ because then it would be even more difficult to make Tau feel distinctive.

A Death Guard buff would be nice for plague marines, hardly anyone ever plays those. But the same could be said for vanilla marines, rubric marines, or anything else that is power armored.

Also, I'm not sure if a points drop is something I'd actually want, I'm actually fine with playing fewer models, but they need to feel elite at least. 4 pts Catachans are so much better than normal marines it's insane.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Eldar can't be BS4+ because then it would be even more difficult to make Tau feel distinctive.

Isn't BS 4+ supposed to be for trained soldiers?
I know Tau border between guardsmen and marines but since there's no 3.5 on a 6 sided die


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gryphonne wrote:
A Death Guard buff would be nice for plague marines, hardly anyone ever plays those. But the same could be said for vanilla marines, rubric marines, or anything else that is power armored.

Also, I'm not sure if a points drop is something I'd actually want, I'm actually fine with playing fewer models, but they need to feel elite at least. 4 pts Catachans are so much better than normal marines it's insane.

A marine is just a more expensive guardsman. I'd like to start custodes I bet they feel more like super soldiers

 fraser1191 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

And playing against Grey Knights with Daemons, every unit being able to cast a Smite on 5+ that is an automatic 3 MW is absurd. Just absurd.

Don't daemons just have a strat to bring the unit back if killed by a GK unit?

Good thing you'll have 20+ MW a turn to deal with it

Bharring wrote:
Agreed.

I like the tradeoff of "rocket strapped to my back" vs "Sneak up to you". I like both ASM and Scorpions. A lot of the rules dovetail well to make them just about equal, same general use, but different ways of doing it. Until Scorp infiltrate was killed.

Sometimes, I want my skirmishers to jet around the board. Other times I want to plan how to get my skirmishers past my enemy's line. Unfortunately both suck right now.

Any buff to Scorpion's CC ability I hope gets put into the ASM too.

To me a proper assault marine has 2 wounds and 2 attacks.and costs about 15 points.

I think a striking scorpion be infiltrate - 1+ save in cover - have their mandiblaster attack and have 3 attacks ap-1 - have the ability to advance and charge and cost about 13.
I think these units would get some play with these stats.

Banshees I think need a special ability. Like -1 to hit for the units they end a charge with. 3 attacks with ap-3 - and something like a 5++(call it a dodge) They should have the ability to fall back and charge. Cost like 13 points.

Firedragons should be like 20 points.

Swooping hawks I think are actually pretty good. Maybe upgrade the stats on the hawks talon.


Spiders - have them wound on 2's vs anything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

And playing against Grey Knights with Daemons, every unit being able to cast a Smite on 5+ that is an automatic 3 MW is absurd. Just absurd.

It's actually a 4+ smite . Though. A LOC coming back to life after you hit it with 6 smites. That is basically GG.

There is a way around this though - just take a detachment of vindicar assasins and have them finish off units with their ignore invo.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights can't kill daemons, or the daemons just come back. That, right there, is absurd. Just absurd. That stratagem alone is the biggest "FU" to a faction in any game i've ever seen.

And playing against Grey Knights with Daemons, every unit being able to cast a Smite on 5+ that is an automatic 3 MW is absurd. Just absurd.

Don't daemons just have a strat to bring the unit back if killed by a GK unit?

Good thing you'll have 20+ MW a turn to deal with it

So perpetually killing one unit over and over? I think that draigos lore. Cool

If all you're doing is smiting and not using your shooting phase (which masses of storm bolter fire is excellent for daemon killing) then you have other issues and a 2CP strat is not one of them.

This is the crux of the issue isn't it? Imagine a world where Grey Knights are a strong faction that stands on its own, even in fairly competitive formats - if such an army just automatically does 3 mortal wounds to any daemon unit with every unit in their army then there's zero way for daemons to compete with that.

Frankly, the Grey Knights bonuses against daemons need to be nerfed down (about the level of impact Deathwatch have against Xenos is fine) if GK's are ever going to be a good army without just ruining things for Chaos players.

 NurglesR0T wrote:



Don't daemons just have a strat to bring the unit back if killed by a GK unit?

Good thing you'll have 20+ MW a turn to deal with it

That doesn't make sense, Karol. You are comparing current state GK, that's not what he's saying. If the army becomes balanced against the rest of the game without it, having it a buff like that vs Daemons is probably going to destroy the match up.

"I'd actually put Eldar much lower than you did; the thing is that Tzeentch, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights are entirely incapable of running an army without multiple psykers"

From a gameplay perspective, yes. From a lore perspective, no. Every single CWE Eldar is a psyker. But trained not to use it when not walking the appropriate Paths. (Not claiming every Eldar is a Farseer-powerhouse-psyker.)

"To me a proper assault marine has 2 wounds and 2 attacks.and costs about 15 points."
All Marines should have 2A base. And wouldn't even need a points increase. Still not sold on 2W base, but there's virtually no way that's happening in CA.

"I think a striking scorpion be infiltrate - 1+ save in cover - have their mandiblaster attack and have 3 attacks ap-1 - have the ability to advance and charge and cost about 13.
I think these units would get some play with these stats."
But are those the right stats? 1+ save in cover would make them very hard to dislodge. I'd rather they didn't become more durable after they engaged, though. And I'd rather they retain their AP0. They aren't armor hunters. Their CC ability should stay at "We'll kill some backfielders, but not a tank or frontline unit". And fewer things need Advance + Charge, not more. What they really need is a way to "get there" that isn't just "magic fairydust, freechargenao". Something like "1+ save in cover if they have not attacked", or Scout-like deployment options, or old-outflank or something. Their durability is about right. Their killiness is about right. They just don't have any real ambush ability - which is what should define them.

"Banshees I think need a special ability. Like -1 to hit for the units they end a charge with. 3 attacks with ap-3 - and something like a 5++(call it a dodge) They should have the ability to fall back and charge. Cost like 13 points. "
I'd love to see the Banshees Wail do more - like, instead of the "Always fight first, unless of course you might not have fought first anyways" rule they have now, make it something more synergistic with other friendly units. Something like "enemy units within 3" suffer -1 to hit" - and maybe the Exarch gets a 6" bubble instead (around her, not the unit). More attacks is just inflation, and fewer things should have decent dodge invulns, not more. They aren't Wyches.

I like Fall Back and Charge on more CWE stuff. I wish Battle Focus were 'Fall back for free' instead of what it is. But again, no way that's happening in CA.

"Firedragons should be like 20 points."
Fire Dragons are good at what they do. But nobody wants Melta these days. Because other stuff is OP.

"Swooping hawks I think are actually pretty good. Maybe upgrade the stats on the hawks talon."
I agree that Hawks are about right right now. But I want their Grenades back. Wouldn't change much, but made them more obviously a toolbox. Plus, RF2 instead of A4 made a more risk/reward scenario in the index. If I were wishlisting, I'd suggest that, too.

"Spiders - have them wound on 2's vs anything."
That works. I was thinking more Flamer-style weapons on them. Strength might need to go down for that. But it'd be more fitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing:
However else you buff them, what Banshees/Scorps really need is a nerf to Spears.

Nerfing Spears doesn't make you take Banshees and Scorpions.

Scorpions are surprisingly an easy fix. Make their Deep Strike an Infiltration mechanic again. Any point adjustments as necessary of course.

Nerfing Spears will not do much except increase the number of Wave Serpents on the field instead of increasing the use of Banshees and Scorpions.

Banshees and Scorpions suffer mostly from being a 3/3 unit which means you are paying a premium for stuff that is going to have a hard time killing stuff. At least the Scorpions get a +1 to strength, but most of the time they are going to collapse. If they are lucky they'll get a round of combat before their opponent Falls Back and shoots the Aeldari CC dead.

The reason Shining Spears are popular is because they sync quite well with Aeldari Psychic Powers whereas you'll most of the time not waste your powers on a unit of Banshees and Scorpions. It's the reason people take large squads of Shining Spears; to maximize psychic power ability.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That doesn't make sense, Karol. You are comparing current state GK, that's not what he's saying. If the army becomes balanced against the rest of the game without it, having it a buff like that vs Daemons is probably going to destroy the match up.

How is it any worse than eldar matching up against armies with 3+ armor as a main protection? Ap-4 all over the place.

Bad matchups happen. Some armies excell vs other armies. An army doesnt need to be at a lower power level because it's good against 1 army. Heck - Chaos gets free abilities against imperium.

I think the solution here is simple though - give GK a smite more like TS so it's not more or less effecitve vs everything. Retain the reroll wounds in CC though because that is super situational and plenty of rules exist like this through out the game. It adds character.

By nerfing spears, I just mean that any buff to Scorpions or Banshees that'd make them worth taking over Spears would make them OP. So you'd need to buff them while nerfing Spears (a little, not a lot).

Spears (and Reapers) "suffer" from being high PPM models that can be taken in largish units. Doubling the impact of a 9-man Spears unit will mean more than doubling the impact of a 9-man DA unit, even if DAs and Spears were equally powerful/pt.

The Newman wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Terminators/deathwing kinda need some help. I'd like to run a full deathwing army but terminators and the LR are not in the best place right now. Some points costs need to be shifted around or something. I never see anyone take that cool looking glaive. I like the idea of an elite army like that, but reducing points costs per model means a larger numerous army...which isn't what I really want. I'm not experienced enough at the game to really say what the best course is.

Yeah. To be competitive without any rules changes Marines need a 20%-25% cost reduction over the entire faction, and that's not what I think any marine player actually wants. On the other hand, to feel like they're actually worth 13 points the basic Marine profile needs to be vastly tougher than it actually is. Like, T5 and a 2+ 5+++ save levels of tougher. And possibly A2. And to justify the premium Space Marines pay over Guard for any given weapon system they would need the ability to ignore penalties to hit for moving built into the basic army-wide rules. And a significant number of their strategems are based on taking three of something that is hard to justify taking at all.

They're just in a bad place.

I agree & IMO Terminators should already ignore the HW penalty. It has in the past specifically mentioned that Tactical Dreadnought Armor was to be a stable heavy weapons platform...

Aren't some of the highest-ranking monofaction lists already SM, though? Sure, soups of all kinds crap on them, but they aren't nearly as bad as a 20-25% cost reduction factionwide.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't some of the highest-ranking monofaction lists already SM, though? Sure, soups of all kinds crap on them, but they aren't nearly as bad as a 20-25% cost reduction factionwide.

Remove the reroll your rerolls crutch of Guilliman and vanilla marine codex is a fair fight for necrons currently.
Really marines need more worj than is likely in CA to make them work without having some OP outcomes with all the snowflake codex's.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't some of the highest-ranking monofaction lists already SM, though? Sure, soups of all kinds crap on them, but they aren't nearly as bad as a 20-25% cost reduction factionwide.

What? Where do you get this info?