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Bharring wrote:
By nerfing spears, I just mean that any buff to Scorpions or Banshees that'd make them worth taking over Spears would make them OP. So you'd need to buff them while nerfing Spears (a little, not a lot).

Spears (and Reapers) "suffer" from being high PPM models that can be taken in largish units. Doubling the impact of a 9-man Spears unit will mean more than doubling the impact of a 9-man DA unit, even if DAs and Spears were equally powerful/pt.

Isn't that always the case though that some are just more point efficient in buffing? If I have S.Cannon Serpent and a BL Serpent I am most of the time probably going to get better ROI from buffing the BL Serpent and debuffing its target(which is probably going to be a high wound/armor target). This is just a general problem with psychic powers and abilities that buff rerolls. At least with the Aeldari psychic powers you are going to have a harder time using them due to a high warp charge compared to something static like Roboute's buff aura.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Bharring wrote:
By nerfing spears, I just mean that any buff to Scorpions or Banshees that'd make them worth taking over Spears would make them OP. So you'd need to buff them while nerfing Spears (a little, not a lot).

Spears (and Reapers) "suffer" from being high PPM models that can be taken in largish units. Doubling the impact of a 9-man Spears unit will mean more than doubling the impact of a 9-man DA unit, even if DAs and Spears were equally powerful/pt.

Isn't that always the case though that some are just more point efficient in buffing? If I have S.Cannon Serpent and a BL Serpent I am most of the time probably going to get better ROI from buffing the BL Serpent and debuffing its target(which is probably going to be a high wound/armor target). This is just a general problem with psychic powers and abilities that buff rerolls. At least with the Aeldari psychic powers you are going to have a harder time using them due to a high warp charge compared to something static like Roboute's buff aura.

Not so much - spears are clearly undercosted compared to every other biker unit. The fact that you can buff them to high levels just makes them one of the best units in the game. They aren't the only undercosted unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Bharring wrote:
By nerfing spears, I just mean that any buff to Scorpions or Banshees that'd make them worth taking over Spears would make them OP. So you'd need to buff them while nerfing Spears (a little, not a lot).

Spears (and Reapers) "suffer" from being high PPM models that can be taken in largish units. Doubling the impact of a 9-man Spears unit will mean more than doubling the impact of a 9-man DA unit, even if DAs and Spears were equally powerful/pt.

Isn't that always the case though that some are just more point efficient in buffing? If I have S.Cannon Serpent and a BL Serpent I am most of the time probably going to get better ROI from buffing the BL Serpent and debuffing its target(which is probably going to be a high wound/armor target). This is just a general problem with psychic powers and abilities that buff rerolls. At least with the Aeldari psychic powers you are going to have a harder time using them due to a high warp charge compared to something static like Roboute's buff aura.

Not so much - spears are clearly undercosted compared to every other biker unit. The fact that you can buff them to high levels just makes them one of the best units in the game. They aren't the only undercosted unit.

More or less every other biker unit is overpriced for what it does which is why you don't see many Space Marine bikers, DA Bikers, CSM bikers, Windriders, Vypers, Ork Bikers, or really any other bikers so your point is moot unless the point is that Shining Spears should also be as useless as the rest.

They are also a unit that requires a lot of synchronicity to work properly(Guide, Doom, Jinx, and/or Ynnari ability. All of these things require point investments). I am going to be curious when the eventual nerf comes whether they will fall back into the dust bin of history where they've stayed since forever. It was at least nice to have been able to use them for a year or so.

[edit]

Redacted. I should probably stop dumping on my chosen faction so much, I start wondering why I play at all.

[/edit]

I really want to see the Ynnari characters offered as normal HQs with the appropriate keyword to Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Having to completely rebuild your army around Ynnari to use them is silly. I would also be fine removing strength from death from the game in its entirety, and replacing all soulburst mechanics with a targeted "+1 attack" or "+1 shot" kind of buff. It'd still be good, as you'd get an extra shot out of reapers, but shooting twice is just bonkers good. By toning it down and making it easier to take these characters, you affect balance in a really positive way: people can play the models and stay mono-faction (if that's your goal), and there's less reason to power game a ynnari list.

And the last thing i want to see is a Ynnari codex. They have 3 models. It makes no sense.

Can my grey knights actually be playable?

 Marmatag wrote:
I really want to see the Ynnari characters offered as normal HQs with the appropriate keyword to Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Having to completely rebuild your army around Ynnari to use them is silly. I would also be fine removing strength from death from the game in its entirety, and replacing all soulburst mechanics with a targeted "+1 attack" or "+1 shot" kind of buff. It'd still be good, as you'd get an extra shot out of reapers, but shooting twice is just bonkers good. By toning it down and making it easier to take these characters, you affect balance in a really positive way: people can play the models and stay mono-faction (if that's your goal), and there's less reason to power game a ynnari list.

And the last thing i want to see is a Ynnari codex. They have 3 models. It makes no sense.

Agreed, however GW has indeed release army books in the past that only had 3 models. The first Imperial Knight "codex" was released for a single kit that had only 2 builds
A Ynnari codex could also include specifc CWE, DE and Harlie units to be used and give them specific Ynnair datasheets, rather than relying on having the other books.

-

 Jaxler wrote:
Can my grey knights actually be playable?

Legally? Sure.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Bharring wrote:
By nerfing spears, I just mean that any buff to Scorpions or Banshees that'd make them worth taking over Spears would make them OP. So you'd need to buff them while nerfing Spears (a little, not a lot).

Spears (and Reapers) "suffer" from being high PPM models that can be taken in largish units. Doubling the impact of a 9-man Spears unit will mean more than doubling the impact of a 9-man DA unit, even if DAs and Spears were equally powerful/pt.

Isn't that always the case though that some are just more point efficient in buffing? If I have S.Cannon Serpent and a BL Serpent I am most of the time probably going to get better ROI from buffing the BL Serpent and debuffing its target(which is probably going to be a high wound/armor target). This is just a general problem with psychic powers and abilities that buff rerolls. At least with the Aeldari psychic powers you are going to have a harder time using them due to a high warp charge compared to something static like Roboute's buff aura.

Not so much - spears are clearly undercosted compared to every other biker unit. The fact that you can buff them to high levels just makes them one of the best units in the game. They aren't the only undercosted unit.

More or less every other biker unit is overpriced for what it does which is why you don't see many Space Marine bikers, DA Bikers, CSM bikers, Windriders, Vypers, Ork Bikers, or really any other bikers so your point is moot unless the point is that Shining Spears should also be as useless as the rest.

They are also a unit that requires a lot of synchronicity to work properly(Guide, Doom, Jinx, and/or Ynnari ability. All of these things require point investments). I am going to be curious when the eventual nerf comes whether they will fall back into the dust bin of history where they've stayed since forever. It was at least nice to have been able to use them for a year or so.

Not that I disagree with what you are saying about the other bike units. They obviously just cost too much. There is a middle ground between a company vet on bike (36 with no special weapon or close combat weapon) and a shinning spear (31 with all it's gear) You start putting gear on that Company vet and hes over 50 points and still doesn't have fly key word. it's clear - 1 needs to come up and 1 needs to come down. In the end the company vet should cost more because he will have a 3++ save t5 more or less they do about the same damage though and still doesn't have access to eldar buffs.

 Galef wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I really want to see the Ynnari characters offered as normal HQs with the appropriate keyword to Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Having to completely rebuild your army around Ynnari to use them is silly. I would also be fine removing strength from death from the game in its entirety, and replacing all soulburst mechanics with a targeted "+1 attack" or "+1 shot" kind of buff. It'd still be good, as you'd get an extra shot out of reapers, but shooting twice is just bonkers good. By toning it down and making it easier to take these characters, you affect balance in a really positive way: people can play the models and stay mono-faction (if that's your goal), and there's less reason to power game a ynnari list.

And the last thing i want to see is a Ynnari codex. They have 3 models. It makes no sense.

Agreed, however GW has indeed release army books in the past that only had 3 models. The first Imperial Knight "codex" was released for a single kit that had only 2 builds
A Ynnari codex could also include specifc CWE, DE and Harlie units to be used and give them specific Ynnair datasheets, rather than relying on having the other books.

-

True, although historical GW seems to not be a predictor for future releases.

I just see Ynnari in their current form making balance a lot harder and in general you have to build very specific lists to make them work. It'd be nice to open them up a bit, and have native in-faction psychic access for my DE army. It's not like DE can function without doom and jinx anyway.

Agreed. I think the best way to address Ynnari is to release a book, codex or not, that has just the 3 Characters with a special rule that they do not affect Aeldari detachment bonuses if added to one. They can just be added as if they had the right keywords and give they detachment YNNARI
Make SfD an aura ability that all 3 have that they give to Aeldari units within 18".
Something like re-roll to-wound rolls instead of double actions. You can make 1 Psychic powers grant "move, shoot, charge or fight twice"

YNNARI units would not have SfD at all, but merely get a minor bonus for being range of one of the Characters

-

serious question guys.

Why is it problematic for ynnari to fight twice and shoot twice in a turn but it's not problematic for an army to shoot twice and fight twice off of stratagems? If they could double up on strats and ability and fight 3 times i'd be with you (outside of harliquens though it's not happening) and i don't see anyone exploiting harliquens with it anyways.

Please explain.

Serious answer, because it is something Aeldari can do, so it has the stigma of being OP and unacceptable

Honestly, I'd like GW to stop pricing things based on what buffs it. Price the buffing unit highly if you must, but leave the wargear and other options alone so armies who can't or don't take that buff aren't being penalized for it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly, I'd like GW to stop pricing things based on what buffs it. Price the buffing unit highly if you must, but leave the wargear and other options alone so armies who can't or don't take that buff aren't being penalized for it.

I'm not sure they do anything like that. Pretty sure they just pull numbers out of hats to determine point values. How do you charge for a buff anyways? Especially with the fact that characters have protections from being targeted first - this is the natural way you could balance buffs.

It's like in LOL if they have a healer support and you don't take them out you literally can not win the fight. However - they are usually very vulnerable characters. 40k buff characters are practically immune to damage - that is the real problem. Cause buffs almost always hit above their weight class. Perhaps we should go back to the old ways - where characters have to be in units to be protected AND they aren't allowed to tank for those units. That way you could focus characters by wiping out their units and then crushing them.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't some of the highest-ranking monofaction lists already SM, though? Sure, soups of all kinds crap on them, but they aren't nearly as bad as a 20-25% cost reduction factionwide.

Roboute is a lot of points after all.

I think Roboute and Ynnari are in about the same place.

Once OP hot garbage. Now, nerfed to where they can do work, but are questionable.

In both cases you have special character(s) who buff units insanely well. And, in both cases, the units they buff can be fielded for the same points in their army, or in armies that can't take the character(s).

Both Tac Marines and Shining Spears are really hard to price such that they're a valid option both with and without said character(s), without making them OP.

Marines won't be fine generally until Big G himself is terribad. Eldar won't be fine generally until Ynnari gets sorted out somehow.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly, I'd like GW to stop pricing things based on what buffs it. Price the buffing unit highly if you must, but leave the wargear and other options alone so armies who can't or don't take that buff aren't being penalized for it.

I'm not sure they do anything like that. Pretty sure they just pull numbers out of hats to determine point values. How do you charge for a buff anyways? Especially with the fact that characters have protections from being targeted first - this is the natural way you could balance buffs.

It's like in LOL if they have a healer support and you don't take them out you literally can not win the fight. However - they are usually very vulnerable characters. 40k buff characters are practically immune to damage - that is the real problem. Cause buffs almost always hit above their weight class. Perhaps we should go back to the old ways - where characters have to be in units to be protected AND they aren't allowed to tank for those units. That way you could focus characters by wiping out their units and then crushing them.

They upped Guilliman's points to try and balance his buffing, which was fine, the problem was they upped the cost of things he could buff too which hurt factions that don't or can't take him. I mean Grey Knights have to pay a premium on Autocannon Razorbacks despite the fact that they don't need or want Guilliman in their army lists.

Bharring wrote:
I think Roboute and Ynnari are in about the same place.

Once OP hot garbage. Now, nerfed to where they can do work, but are questionable.

In both cases you have special character(s) who buff units insanely well. And, in both cases, the units they buff can be fielded for the same points in their army, or in armies that can't take the character(s).

Both Tac Marines and Shining Spears are really hard to price such that they're a valid option both with and without said character(s), without making them OP.

Marines won't be fine generally until Big G himself is terribad. Eldar won't be fine generally until Ynnari gets sorted out somehow.

Ehh - Big G just needs to be reworked - like instead of an aura - he can make 1 units reroll hits and wounds. Let him keep his 12 inch aura though which is just kinda cool. With a significant drop in points.
Then reprice every marine unit accordingly. Ynnari IMO are not really a big problem. As I have pointed out repeatedly - all their abilities can be duplicated with stratagems and spells. Plus they aren't getting it for free - they give up an army trait and battle focus (very good abiltiies) to get it. Why do ynnari do so well? Because the units they exploit are OP - it's simple as that.

Ynari just need their own codex.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly, I'd like GW to stop pricing things based on what buffs it. Price the buffing unit highly if you must, but leave the wargear and other options alone so armies who can't or don't take that buff aren't being penalized for it.

I'm not sure they do anything like that. Pretty sure they just pull numbers out of hats to determine point values. How do you charge for a buff anyways? Especially with the fact that characters have protections from being targeted first - this is the natural way you could balance buffs.

It's like in LOL if they have a healer support and you don't take them out you literally can not win the fight. However - they are usually very vulnerable characters. 40k buff characters are practically immune to damage - that is the real problem. Cause buffs almost always hit above their weight class. Perhaps we should go back to the old ways - where characters have to be in units to be protected AND they aren't allowed to tank for those units. That way you could focus characters by wiping out their units and then crushing them.

They upped Guilliman's points to try and balance his buffing, which was fine, the problem was they upped the cost of things he could buff too which hurt factions that don't or can't take him. I mean Grey Knights have to pay a premium on Autocannon Razorbacks despite the fact that they don't need or want Guilliman in their army lists.

Yeah I agree with that. Except - at the same time if you are going to go after problematic interactions but don't go after all of them - or even the most problematic interactions...you don't accomplish anything.

All they did was doc ultras 40 points to the top space marine build and every other space marine faction got that much weaker if they utilized assault cannons. Meanwhile IG and Eldar hardly get touched...I think spirit seers went up 10 points...MY MY GOD GOD. Those are the armies that win everything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ynari just need their own codex.

Thy need their buff to be reworked. Instead of insane buff for one unit it should be moderate buff for many units. That way it would make sense to field an actual Ynnari army, instead of just one allied mini detachment. Them drawing units from other Eldar factions is perfectly fine, it is their thing. They're like Inquisition for Imperium, a great excuse for a weird soup.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ynari just need their own codex.

Yeah that will help - in the codex it states - they can't use craft-world stratagems.

Honestly they could do something awesome with it...like this army doesn't start with any CP However when they kill units they gain CP (kind of like how daemon kin used to work) they could use those CP to do the things that SFD allows them to do - plus some other cool ideas they can come up with. That would be cool.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly, I'd like GW to stop pricing things based on what buffs it. Price the buffing unit highly if you must, but leave the wargear and other options alone so armies who can't or don't take that buff aren't being penalized for it.

I'm not sure they do anything like that. Pretty sure they just pull numbers out of hats to determine point values. How do you charge for a buff anyways? Especially with the fact that characters have protections from being targeted first - this is the natural way you could balance buffs.

It's like in LOL if they have a healer support and you don't take them out you literally can not win the fight. However - they are usually very vulnerable characters. 40k buff characters are practically immune to damage - that is the real problem. Cause buffs almost always hit above their weight class. Perhaps we should go back to the old ways - where characters have to be in units to be protected AND they aren't allowed to tank for those units. That way you could focus characters by wiping out their units and then crushing them.

They upped Guilliman's points to try and balance his buffing, which was fine, the problem was they upped the cost of things he could buff too which hurt factions that don't or can't take him. I mean Grey Knights have to pay a premium on Autocannon Razorbacks despite the fact that they don't need or want Guilliman in their army lists.

Yeah I agree with that. Except - at the same time if you are going to go after problematic interactions but don't go after all of them - or even the most problematic interactions...you don't accomplish anything.

All they did was doc ultras 40 points to the top space marine build and every other space marine faction got that much weaker if they utilized assault cannons. Meanwhile IG and Eldar hardly get touched...I think spirit seers went up 10 points...MY MY GOD GOD. Those are the armies that win everything.

You can address problems without nerfing every part of the combo though. You need to pull the lynchpin out of the combo instead of just wildly flailing a nerf bat around though.

I dunno, the Commisar nerf and Conscript nerfs weren't nothing.

And the CWE book was written at the same time as the last CA - why would you see nerfs to a book that wasn't out when CA was written?

Yes, more balancing is needed. If only the FAQ made some changes?

Yes, more balancing is needed after those too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Assault Cannon was an amazing weapon on it's own right, for it's points. It went up too much, and the other options those armies have are bad, though.

Bharring wrote:
I dunno, the Commisar nerf and Conscript nerfs weren't nothing.

And the CWE book was written at the same time as the last CA - why would you see nerfs to a book that wasn't out when CA was written?

Yes, more balancing is needed. If only the FAQ made some changes?

Yes, more balancing is needed after those too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Assault Cannon was an amazing weapon on it's own right, for it's points. It went up too much, and the other options those armies have are bad, though.

the conscript nerf didn't really matter - infantry squads are just as problematic.

Only because the goalpost doesn't stand still.

Bharring wrote:
Only because the goalpost doesn't stand still.

What do you mean?

Because before the CA, Conscripts *did* matter a crapton more than Guardsmen did. And Commisars also mattered.

Guardsmen might be the same sort of problem, but not as bad.

If they bump Guardsmen to 10ppm in CA, next year you'll be saying the same thing about whatever comes next.

Bharring wrote:
Because before the CA, Conscripts *did* matter a crapton more than Guardsmen did. And Commisars also mattered.

Guardsmen might be the same sort of problem, but not as bad.

If they bump Guardsmen to 10ppm in CA, next year you'll be saying the same thing about whatever comes next.

Disagree - infantry were never inferior to conscripts.

IG don't have another extremely OP troop choice to take that place.