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Bremon wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

Gnollu wrote:
Any leaks on IG?
Being AM player I honestly don't mind guardsman being 5ppm but I am more curious about vehicles (e.g. leman russ having only two viable variants, unplayable deathstrike) and other not necessarily fun options like mortar squad for 33 pts

Increasing basic Guardsmen to 5ppm would cause a domino effect on the rest of the game, as Guardsmen are used as the base for all other infantry price calculations.

Any receipts for that?

Beware: Math.

I calculated this out on reddit a while back:

Everything uses the humble Guardsman as its basic unit, at 4 points:
6", BS4, WS4, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 6LD, 5+, lasgun.

Vets are the first bump at 6pts:
6", BS3, WS3, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 6LD, 5+, lasgun.

1WS, 1BS, 2 points.

Next we look at a Sister at 9pts:
6", BS3, WS4, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 7LD, 3+, bolter.

1BS, 1LD, 2 save, 1 invuln, and upgraded to a bolter, for 5 pts more. If we assume that weapon upgrades to whatever the army's basic weapon are free, and that all stats cost 1 point regardless of their value in practical application, then this makes sense.

Now let's look at a Skitarii Ranger for 7pts:

6", WS4, BS3, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 6LD, 4+ and has a rifle similar to a bolter.

1BS, 1 Save, and upgraded weapon, for 3 points. If weapon upgrades are free and everything else costs a point, then these are overcosted by 1 point.

Next up, an Ork Boy:
5", WS3. BS5, S4, T4, 1W, 2A, 6LD, 6+ with a bolter.

-1" move, +2WS, -1BS, +1S, +1T, +1A, -1Save, upgraded gun, for 2 points.

So canceling out the positives with the negatives of the same scope, we get: -1" move, +1WS, +1S, +1T, +1A, -1Save, weapon upgrade.

If we again assume that every stat is worth a point, regardless of its real practical application, and that weapon upgrades do not incur an actual point cost, then Boyz end up at +2 and are 2 points more.

How about a Kabalite Warrior from a recent book, at 6pts:

7", BS3, WS3, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 7LD, 5+ and has a weapon comparable to a bolter (-1 vs vehicles/monsters, +1 vs infantry).

1" move, 1BS, 1WS, 1LD, and an upgraded weapon for 2 points. Power creep is real.

If we look at Defender Guardians, they're basically the same but cost 8pts, which would be +4 and again give credence to the 1-point-per-stat formula, with whatever their army's basic weapon is being free.

Space Marine Scouts are 11 points:

6", WS3, BS3, S4, T4, 1A, 1W, 7LD, 4+ with an upgraded weapon and infiltrate.

1WS, 1BS, 1S, 1T, 1LD, 1 Save. +6 for 7 points more. Is infiltrate worth a point?

Marines are 13pts:

6", WS3, BS3, S4, T4, 1W, 1A, 7LD, 3+, upgraded weapon.

1WS, 1BS, 1S, 1T, 1LD, 2 Save, upgraded weapon. Assuming the weapon is free again, that's +7... but for 9 more.

If we use 17% instead of a point for each save up or down, then all of those numbers stay relatively on point, except Kabalites (8), Skitarii (5.7), Marines (12.04), and Scouts (10.53).

If we assume that Skitarii are calculated as regular Guardsmen, and like them pay a point for bolter-equivalent guns, then they make sense (7.02).

That said, of the listed units, Kabalite Warriors should be 8, and Marines should be 12.

I don't think that's how they determine the costs. Upgrades can't have flat costs due to scaling factors and force multipliers. They must be determined empirically, in context.

Yeah that’s some janky find-math-where-there-isn’t-any research.

+1 T when your armor save is good and/or you have multiple wounds or +1A when you have good ws/s/weapon are worth more than 1 point.

I reject your mathematical theories.

PuppetSoul wrote:

Everything uses the humble Guardsman as its basic unit, at 4 points:
6", BS4, WS4, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 6LD, 5+, lasgun.

Vets are the first bump at 6pts:
6", BS3, WS3, S3, T3, 1W, 1A, 6LD, 5+, lasgun.

1WS, 1BS, 2 points.

Uh, vets don't have better WS than Guardsmen. Which puts your +1 BS at 2 points. If we look at the original prices for Guard infantry we have:
- Conscripts 3 pts
- Infantry: 4 pts
- Vets: 6 pts

So going from Conscripts to Infantry we see that +1 WS, +1 BS and +3 Ld (counting sarges) are worth 1 point, but if we look at Infantry to vets, +1 BS is worth 2 points...
Of course, if you look at current prices conscripts and infantry are the same points. Which means that +1 WS, +1 BS and +3 Ld are free...

Your baseline isn't even consistent within the same book.

Also, did you just say that Skitarii rangers are overcosted? If anything they're undercosted, so your math can't be right. Can you imagine 6 pt Rangers?

I think 7pts is about right. If we are using the guardsmen/kabalite/firewarrior system.

Skitarii rangers cost feels pretty good to me but somehow they still don't show up on top tables. Ever. Lol.

Turns out fundamentally your toughness 3 armor 4+ or 5+ dude dies pretty close to the same whether he costs 4 points or 7..... and why would you want to take 10 7 point guys when you could have almost 18 4 point guys? It's kinda a no-brainer.

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7pts is about right. If we are using the guardsmen/kabalite/firewarrior system.

Sure, but all of them are undercosted vs Tacticals, Necrons and Dire Avengers, so they're on the undercosted side of things. Consider also that Vanguard are 8 pts even though I personally find Rangers to be more versatile and effective.

Martel732 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I doubt Space Marine players will be happy. Not because I don't doubt GW will cave to the demands of it's largest cash cows, but because the expectatoins they've set up for themselves will make anything short of total power armor domination as "not going far enough".

If that's the narrative that makes you feel better... I've not once called for domination. In fact, marines are so far from that it would take a colossal mess up to make it happen.

You, you specificly, have said that Space Marines were underpowered in 7th because they were weaker than Eldar

They were underpowered because they needed to be spotted 400 pts to win. Gladius was great. Marines were terrible.

BA were weaker than almost everything in 7th. They were literally marines without gladius.

Your point?

Dandelion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7pts is about right. If we are using the guardsmen/kabalite/firewarrior system.

Sure, but all of them are undercosted vs Tacticals, Necrons and Dire Avengers, so they're on the undercosted side of things. Consider also that Vanguard are 8 pts even though I personally find Rangers to be more versatile and effective.

Honestly I don't think anyone would bat an eye if Vanguard went down to 7 as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think 7pts is about right. If we are using the guardsmen/kabalite/firewarrior system.

Sure, but all of them are undercosted vs Tacticals, Necrons and Dire Avengers, so they're on the undercosted side of things. Consider also that Vanguard are 8 pts even though I personally find Rangers to be more versatile and effective.

Honestly I don't think anyone would bat an eye if Vanguard went down to 7 as well.

Well at the very least, vanguards and rangers should just be the same cost whether it's 7 or 8 pts. They both started at 10 pts anyway, and were 9 pts in the codex so they'd still be ahead from when they started. But, in light of 7 pt Ork boyz, rangers/FW/guard and Kabs need to go up by a point too.

Kabalites should NEVER have been 6. Especially with guardians at 8. WTF@@#!>?????

Martel732 wrote:
Kabalites should NEVER have been 6. Especially with guardians at 8. WTF@@#!>?????

Yeah, I was pretty confused by that move.

Lemondish wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

IG guardsmen point increase

Not going to happen, as their cost is the foundation cost for every other infantry unit, and there is nothing about the unit that warrants a cost increase besides people who don't bring anti-horde crying that "existing is worth more than 4 points".

The math is clear - they should be 6 ppm. No point hiding from it.

5ppm puts them mathematically in the same boat as fire warriors in terms of durability per point and damage output per point. 6ppm is overkill with kabalites, GSC neophytes, and skitarii rangers being priced as they are.

Putting IS at 6ppm also means you need to reprice veterans, which currently are currently gak and would make them even worse. No, 5ppm is a good spot, anything more and you would need to overhaul the entire faction.

Okay then. 5 ppm.

And Commanders jump to 50.

And Tempestor Primes are 45 points already, have no invulnerable save, need to take a stick in place of their pistol to give a second order, but have deepstrike and have 4+ armor, so how do you point that appropriately?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Marmatag, are Scion players happy with CA18?

Martel732 wrote:
Kabalites should NEVER have been 6. Especially with guardians at 8. WTF@@#!>?????

Yeah, I've always been baffled with the Kabalites pricing..

Basing it off rumours, if guardsmen and leman russ get points changes, will GW just released a new codex as the book will be all wrong :p

 Smirrors wrote:
Basing it off rumours, if guardsmen and leman russ get points changes, will GW just released a new codex as the book will be all wrong :p

Every book is wrong. Paging BCB to tell you in how many ways.

More than anything i wanna know if necrons and gk are receveing some love with CA, im so tired of getting stomped every time and losing 0-12 or 0-16

I guess well get the release or leaks with Warhammer World on 24th to 25th

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I doubt Space Marine players will be happy. Not because I don't doubt GW will cave to the demands of it's largest cash cows, but because the expectatoins they've set up for themselves will make anything short of total power armor domination as "not going far enough".

If that's the narrative that makes you feel better... I've not once called for domination. In fact, marines are so far from that it would take a colossal mess up to make it happen.

There aren't many people that want an auto win army though. Actually sounds like a decent poll to me

I think that depends on how bad the expiriance was with the army, when it was not good. I wouldn't mind a year or two of GK being the best army there is, after that they can make them mid tier again.

In regards to release dates, the last thing I heard a couple of weeks back, was that it was planned for latest November – this could just be the pre-order though, with the actual release date at the start of December.

We’re going to start seeing more about it rather soon imo.

Preorders will be up next saturday, This Sunday we will probably see the chapter approved in the next week article in warhammer community page

Look people i have the calculator if anyone wants it but heres what straight math says a few units should be:

Marines: 9.5
Sisters: 9
Guard: 5.5
Terminator(pf sb): 39.3
Gk terminator: 39.2
Gk marine: 20.1

How the heck does a GK terminator end up cheaper than a Terminator? Is the PF that expensive compared to a Force Weapon and being a Psyker?

 alextroy wrote:
How the heck does a GK terminator end up cheaper than a Terminator? Is the PF that expensive compared to a Force Weapon and being a Psyker?

I think he's being facetious

Err. A powerfist is potentially realy good and fore weapons middling and GK psychics a joke.

That math might be correct.

 Earth127 wrote:
Err. A powerfist is potentially realy good and fore weapons middling and GK psychics a joke.

That math might be correct.

Nemesis Greatsword is S8, -3, and D6 instead of D3. It also doesn't have -1 to hit.

Also why would you believe that a marine is only 0.5 points more than a sister?

Well D6 isn't that great to be honest. Flat d3 or 4 would be much better. There were countless times I can remember, when by miracle my NDK surived to get in to melee, hits contected only to do 1-2 wounds.

The price of GK is something someone smart is going to have to explain to me one day. Paying a ton of points for melee upgrades you can't use, while having 1A seems mind blowing. But then again, so is a BA marine fist costing the same as an IG dudes powerfist. No idea what gave GW the idea to do stuff like that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Nemesis Greatsword is S8, -3, and D6 instead of D3. It also doesn't have -1 to hit.

...

But that's not a GK terminator weapon...

Kitane wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Nemesis Greatsword is S8, -3, and D6 instead of D3. It also doesn't have -1 to hit.

...

But that's not a GK terminator weapon...

exactly power fist is great for anti tank/monster but the halbred and swords do much better against w1 models, -1 to hit sucks