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2018/11/16 11:37:43
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
If we want to look at it as 1 Castellan and then a Catachan brigade etc, then, it’s a different comparison to “Knight lists”.
We also then have to consider the changes the Castellan and Guardsmen are rumoured to be getting.
Do the Vaults still lose at +70 points IF, the Castellan is going up ~+100-150 and Guardsmen are going up to a base of 5ppm?
We also have to presume that things like Hellhounds will potentially get hit (though prob only the FW one and standard flamer one).
End result is, you’ll prob still be able to get 3 Vaults in 1 list, but, you likely won’t get close to as much in a Guard/Knight soup list as you currently do.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Well id wager against as the vault can only do 3d3 MW against a knight so 9d3 if all 3 Vaults do the same...for this youd have to be within 9“ to get the most out of the one power...
The knights however dont have to charge the Vault they can just shoot it to death.
You can kill the support for the Vaults EASILY with armigers or the other knights (scarabs for example with knights rocket pods or even heavy stubbers).
Then again...this is a very skewed comparison you are trying to make. The 3 Vault plus support (mostly Cryptek/Deceiver and scarabs) is the MOST competitive build necrons have.
Pure Knight list is (very) strong but not the most competitive.
Just add skitarii if you dont want to soup. They can hold obj. even if there are a million scarabs as they arent troops.
Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?
I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.
Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.
As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.
Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?
Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...
Thank you!
I made the pure Knights comparison, because the comments were
I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.
So why is a 3 Vault list worse than a far superior Knight list? I don't really get it
This implies that the direct comparison being made is that Knight lists are better than the 3 Vault lists.
If the actual comparison is “why is a 3 Vault list worse than an Imperium Soup list” then, sure, but it’s a completely different statement and comparison, as I wouldn’t consider an Imperium list with 1 Knight in it, to be a “Knight list”.
If we want to run it was 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 200-300 points of Guardsmen support, then, the comparison still works. Can 3 Knights and 2 Armigers beat 3 Vaults?
Vaults are actually pretty strong. However, they have really bad damage output versus single models such as Knights. So even if you wanted to prove that Vaults are strong, you chose a match-up that wouldn't showcase it anyways. A lot of the Powers that the Vaults use are better against units of models and not separate model units.
I just made an observation and put out a question based off the other comments of Vaults vs Knights.
I do agree that the Vault’s power lie in targeting multi-model units, but, I feel that between their 20 str 7 shots and the MW potential they can hold their own vs Knights.
It’s all a lot of hyperbole anyway, as no one knows the full picture, and even when we do get the book, people will still have hundreds of opinions, right, or wrong.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/16 11:42:51
2018/11/16 11:43:01
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
Well, any points drop is better than nothing I guess but I still feel like it should be more. Land Speeder should be 40 points base and the rest dropped by 15% minimum.
As long as Guilleman exists this won't happen for vanilla marines. He's a power blackhole for that book. If you get ANYTHING priced appropriately with him not in the list, adding Guilleman immediately breaks it. Yes, even at 440pts or w/e the hell he's at now.
2018/11/16 12:20:33
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
But I'm not just considering Guilliman though, I'm also considering the other SM codex armies like DA/BA/SM as well. They share similar points costs and have to deal with it as well regardless of a big primarch babysitting them.
2018/11/16 12:23:32
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
As a Necron player, I actually don't mind them nerfing the Tesseract Vault at all. I really don't like the model, and find it pretty boring to play with and against. I will, however, be pretty mad if that turns out to be the only change (and no one will blame me).
2018/11/16 12:32:53
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
Well, any points drop is better than nothing I guess but I still feel like it should be more. Land Speeder should be 40 points base and the rest dropped by 15% minimum.
As long as Guilleman exists this won't happen for vanilla marines. He's a power blackhole for that book. If you get ANYTHING priced appropriately with him not in the list, adding Guilleman immediately breaks it. Yes, even at 440pts or w/e the hell he's at now.
Except if they were to say, move G up to 10 wounds. That's the biggest nerf I can think of when it comes to him. He skews the game so much. If he's able to be targeted he is still good, but the player using him will actually have to think when they use him vs. putting him in the middle of a blob of dudes/vehicles.
2018/11/16 12:35:36
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Crimson_ wrote: Or just give him the Chapter Master + Lieutenant aura and put him around 330pts.
Some kind of change along these lines is the best thing you can do to Bobby. He's too much of a force multiplier, he ruins the balance of the whole book (and punishes all non-ultramarine variants in the process).
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of auras in general. i'd rather most buffing commanders got something akin to Guard Orders or Necron MWBD, so you didn't have to castle up so much. It makes marines so static and boring.
2018/11/16 13:32:14
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Lemondish wrote: Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.
If coupled with 10-25% increases for cheap infantry, Space Marines will actually start looking decent. Just think about how much better 11 or 12 points Chaos Space Marines look to 5 point Cultist.
2018/11/16 14:18:25
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Lemondish wrote: Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.
If coupled with 10-25% increases for cheap infantry, Space Marines will actually start looking decent. Just think about how much better 11 or 12 points Chaos Space Marines look to 5 point Cultist.
I always forget csm are even a thing.
2018/11/16 15:09:34
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Marines and CSM being just a bit more than twice the cost of Cultists/Guardsmen is a heck of a lot better than them being over 3x more expensive.
+3pts to Shining Spears is about exactly what I expected. Now let's hope Windriders (with TwinCatapults) get decreased enough to be able to take 2 for the same cost as 1 Shining Spear, because that's the only way you make them a viable choice over Spears. Upgrading their weapon can take them above 1/2 cost of a Spear, but not without.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 15:28:43
I'd much rather see Guilliman get pseudo orders where he could give X Ultramarine units reroll hits and wounds until your next turn, instead of everything in a biddle. But to separate it from order I guess it would have global "cast"
2018/11/16 15:30:46
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
But keep in mind that, like Marines with Guilliman, Spears are not broken unless they are Ynnari. CWE Spears are fine with just +3ppm. Especially if -1 to hit traits become Cover instead. And other bikes are in need of a decrease, so it could even out "in comparison"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 15:33:23
What if other bikes gets a point decrease though ? Particularly SM bikes should get a price cut if landspeeders at 50ppm are a thing (it's roughly the price of an attack bike with HB...)
Hard to "judge" any of the info we are getting without the whole picture.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 15:45:44
2018/11/16 15:40:05
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Crimson_ wrote: Or just give him the Chapter Master + Lieutenant aura and put him around 330pts.
Some kind of change along these lines is the best thing you can do to Bobby. He's too much of a force multiplier, he ruins the balance of the whole book (and punishes all non-ultramarine variants in the process).
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of auras in general. i'd rather most buffing commanders got something akin to Guard Orders or Necron MWBD, so you didn't have to castle up so much. It makes marines so static and boring.
I'd be on board with that, especially if it came with a price drop for Marine Captains and Lieutenants. I'd also seriously be on board with nerfing Bobby G into the dirt* if it meant the other SM chapters (and Ultramarines for that matter) could be properly pointed.
* I actually think just banning named characters from competitive play altogether and rebalancing all the books around the generic characters is the better plan though. Bobby G might be the worst offender but every named character specific to a chapter/house/klan/forge world/craftworld/whatever causes shades of the problem. Better to just eliminate the root cause and restrict those big names to narrative play.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/16 15:46:47
Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?
I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.
Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.
As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.
Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?
Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...
Honestly pure Knights would still win though. Vaults have like no codes that help them besides Mephrit, and Knights have far more Strategems to use.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/11/16 17:06:04
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?
I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.
Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.
As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.
Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?
Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...
Honestly pure Knights would still win though. Vaults have like no codes that help them besides Mephrit, and Knights have far more Strategems to use.
Vaults get no codes as they are Ctan shard units...
2018/11/16 17:16:34
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
I'd be on board with that, especially if it came with a price drop for Marine Captains and Lieutenants. I'd also seriously be on board with nerfing Bobby G into the dirt* if it meant the other SM chapters (and Ultramarines for that matter) could be properly pointed.
* I actually think just banning named characters from competitive play altogether and rebalancing all the books around the generic characters is the better plan though. Bobby G might be the worst offender but every named character specific to a chapter/house/klan/forge world/craftworld/whatever causes shades of the problem. Better to just eliminate the root cause and restrict those big names to narrative play.
But special characters make up 100% of GK non GM NDK HQs that get taken. The generic master, and specially the librarian just plain suck, the champion and the chaplain make no sense for the points they cost, they could drop them 20pts each and they would still be bad. And the techmarine is a real gem, twice the cost of a normal techmarine, no bike option, no conversion beamer and a bad psychic power .
Plus unline other marines we don't get a functional chapter tactic rule.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2018/11/16 19:00:10
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/11/16 19:19:01
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?
Marmatag wrote: Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.
That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?
