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These two are entirely different from one another with the former completely ignores all the established logic and common sense and just go with something that is dark. It is utterly stupid and makes me feel like Warhammer 40k is becoming a parody of itself instead of turning the cheese into something entertaining while maintaining its overall tone.

This incident is written in the Custodes Codex which angers me. An Astra Militarum commander is set for execution by the Commissariat for this unorthodox tactics but is saved by the Custodes. He then becomes a warmaster and defeat a major Waaaaagh!. Once it is set then done, the Commissariat executes him. What the hell? There are so many things wrong with this that it makes my brain hurt.

One, Commissars don't execute people for fun. There are 3 ways you will get executed: disobey orders, inappropriate acts (blasphemy, indiscipline, crime against civilians, etc...) and poor leadership (a commander would still get executed for losing too many troops for a victory). The guy in question is already a commander, so he couldn't have disobeyed anyone. Commissars cannot execute people for coming up with different tactics: fighting against Orks is different from Tau and having many different approaches to rely on is necessary. If this commander is executed for unusual way of thinking, Creed, Straken, Marbo and a dozen others would have been shot long ago.

Two, how do Commissars execute a Warmaster? There is a limit as to who the Commissars can execute. They can't execute Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, Mechanicus personnel and Inqusitorial Troops as these belong to different organizations which the Commissar have no authority over. Likewise, a Warmaster is designated by the Lords of Terra. Without authorization from the Lords of Terra themselves, Commissars can't execute a Warmaster.

Three, so he leads a victorious campaign against the Orks and they still execute him? Every Imperial organization allows for repentance and redemption if the sinner is willing. Uriel Ventris was exiled from the Ultramarines because he deviated from the Codex, but later got accepted back and restored as Captain after his exploits in fighting the Iron Warriors.

The sins of your past always catch up to you.

That is indeed a ridiculous piece of fluff. I would personaly throw it in the "rumor and legend of the setting" pile. It's probably the kind of stories guardsmen tell about Commissars to make them look all the more threatening, even warmasters can get executed.

I think it was meant to show the Custodes protecting individuals for a purpose, not because they actually care about the person, and then withdrawing their protection once that purpose is fulfilled. I think it was meant to show a certain callousness.

The example in question was about a Lieutenant who was to be executed for insubordination. I guess it would be like Stannis from Game of Thrones: the good does not cancel out the bad and vice versa. The rest of the Imperium might also take the stance of: He's gone to the Emperor who will reward or punish him as the Emperor deems fit. Maybe he gets a Warmaster's funeral, and his death is covered up.

Of course one could still argue that the Imperium loses out on a resourceful commander that might otherwise have gone on to achieve further victories. So it can still be grimderp.

Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well.

Um, pointless, grinding bureaucracy is more or less a defining feature of Grimdark. The removal or rational, intelligent thought and oversight from the operation of the Imperium, which ploughs on by utter inertia.

Where does it say that a Commissar cant execute a Warmaster? Commissars are the authority of imperial Law within the
In this example, the High Lords didn't make him a Warmaster, the Custodes did (who exist outside the High Lords), so it could be argued that he was a condemned man under the protection of the Custodes. And once that protection was gone......

Yeah I didn't see this as bad at ALL. the Leuitenant in question was up for execution for a "contriversial act of insubordination" which to me suggests he disobeyed a abd order and won a battle as a result as for the limits of the comissarites power, they don't have one, in fact being able, if they need to, to take out a warmaster is proably important, I mean not even a warmaster is above betrayal

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Where does it say that a Commissar cant execute a Warmaster? Commissars are the authority of imperial Law within the
In this example, the High Lords didn't make him a Warmaster, the Custodes did (who exist outside the High Lords), so it could be argued that he was a condemned man under the protection of the Custodes. And once that protection was gone......

The Custodes cannot make a Warmaster out of someone and expects all the Guardsmen, Space Marines and Imperial Navy would just go with it. That is literally the US army installing a general in the Saudi army.

Horus was the first Warmaster and he was appointed by the Emperor himself. Then you have Slaydo and Macharius, both appointed by the Lords of Terra.

The execution still being carried out could be an example of bureaucratic infighting. After all, the Custodes had publicly humiliated the commisariat by cutting down the then Lieutenant's executioners and then remaining very visible bodyguards for presumably years. The commisariat might have had to reassert its authority by making an example out of the Warmaster.

Now a person in the Imperium could argue that a member of the Custodes is often one of the High Lords of Terra and the Custodes being closer to the Emperor might be assumed to know the Emperor's will, but a counterargument might be that they are still fallible short of a direct explicit command by the Emperor. It then can become one of those legalistic/theological verbal debates that never ends. Ultimately like with so much in the Imperium, it boiled down to who could get their way through the application of force. The Custodes got their way through sheer force...until they stopped caring.

I have always argued against the stupidity of grimdark for the sake of grimdark, even where it does not make sense. Keep that crap out of my 40k please, the setting does not need to revert into the childishness and self parody it evolved from. A little "grimderp" and a little humor is fine so long as it is injected in a tasteful way, the Ciaphas Cain novels do a wonderful job of this. As to the story in question, I have not read it but it sounds like one of "those" stories. Like the absolutely awful 7th edition Tempestus Scion codex that butchered all of the lore built up until that point.

A few thoughts:

Political protections are often only short term affairs. The Custodes protected the Lieutenant for a very specific purpose. They didn't protect him out of loyalty, love, care, a sense of fair play nor any other reason other than he was the person they could see who would resolve an issue. During that period they stepped in and extended their political influence to not void the execution, but delay it.

That protection existed only as long as he remained useful to the Custodes, once his purpose was done the Custodes either formally withdrew or simply stopped acting in his defence. Thus the political influence of the Commissar, and his associated wing of the Imperium, rose and allowed them to carry out the formerly paused sentence.




Think of it like this, a murderer is convicted to execution. The trial is done, the hammer has fallen and the sentence is issued. Then its found that the accused has important knowledge/skills that are unique to them. The sentence is put on hold, the original accusation isn't overturned, and the accused is allowed to live longer to carry out the role required by society. Then upon completion they are justly returned to their incarcerated state and executed.


The Custodes didn't overturn the accusation nor justify the accused innocence, they simply gave them a stay of judgement. It's perfectly fitting within the Grim-Dark world. Especially since the majority of the Imperium operates with an almost robotic view toward most of the population. Heck consider that Hive Worlds treat the majority of their working inhabitants like a living machine. 18 hour shifts that leave little time to eat, rest and return to work the next day.
It is a brutal machine that functions because the Imperium always has more bodies. They can lose whole planets and still the core of the Imperium functions. In fact many of the core worlds likely don't notice the loss of whole swathes of worlds, or if they do it might be a blip in the supply of resources for a while till a new supply source is found.

Taking the fantasy (as in 40k world) to much to heart. Chill out have your read any other GW universe novels they all have discrepancies... why? cause most are by various authors (have you read how primarius marines came around...).

Black library or GW have a plethora of writers they use all the time. They contract multiple authors to propergate the fantasy of their reality. You think if have multiple authors that everything lines up?

Oh a commissar executes a warmaster... if I had a penny every time a commissar executed someone... (why can't they execute whoever the gak they want? Arn't they above rank?, who is gunna stop them?). I honestly didn't read it but that is not the point. Pretty sure if think about it aren't commissars predominately religious zealots for the emperor, why do they care if die so long as they execute the person they think against the emperor...

Commissars exist outside of the formal rank system precisely so they can execute whomever they see fit.

Private, Sergeant, Lieutenant, Lord High Commander, Warmaster. Doesn't matter. You cannot outrank your Regimental Commissar because he doesn't have a rank. And he doesn't have a rank precisely because he's there to keep everyone, even you, perhaps especially you, in line.

They're also charged with maintaining fighting Morale. Here, we see a legendary being (second only in the Emperor's creations to the mythical Primarchs) saying 'nope. Not yet. Leave him be for the moment'.

This is a Demi-God. A walking representation and expression of the Direct Will of Him On Earth.

You gonna pull rank there? You gonna get our your little Black Book and start demanding his name, rank and serial number? Of course not.

First, you're going to besmirch yourself over the mere fact he's noticed your existence, let alone has been paying attention to you.

Next, as someone with a crucial role in Morale, realise 'I could still pull the trigger, but them I'm going to get sliced into tiny bits, which will be an open challenge to the Commisarriat in the eyes of the troops'.

Finally, you find your Aide and arrange fresh undergarments and dress trousers, with the previous pair being burned.

Sure, you could put in an official protest. But again, who in the entire Imperium is going to gainsay a Custodes. About the only person with any authority to do so is another Custodes, or Guilliman himself. No one else is going to dare.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Commissars exist outside of the formal rank system precisely so they can execute whomever they see fit.

Private, Sergeant, Lieutenant, Lord High Commander, Warmaster. Doesn't matter. You cannot outrank your Regimental Commissar because he doesn't have a rank. And he doesn't have a rank precisely because he's there to keep everyone, even you, perhaps especially you, in line.

They're also charged with maintaining fighting Morale. Here, we see a legendary being (second only in the Emperor's creations to the mythical Primarchs) saying 'nope. Not yet. Leave him be for the moment'.

This is a Demi-God. A walking representation and expression of the Direct Will of Him On Earth.

You gonna pull rank there? You gonna get our your little Black Book and start demanding his name, rank and serial number? Of course not.

First, you're going to besmirch yourself over the mere fact he's noticed your existence, let alone has been paying attention to you.

Next, as someone with a crucial role in Morale, realise 'I could still pull the trigger, but them I'm going to get sliced into tiny bits, which will be an open challenge to the Commisarriat in the eyes of the troops'.

Finally, you find your Aide and arrange fresh undergarments and dress trousers, with the previous pair being burned.

Sure, you could put in an official protest. But again, who in the entire Imperium is going to gainsay a Custodes. About the only person with any authority to do so is another Custodes, or Guilliman himself. No one else is going to dare.

The commissar is the type a person who is like what you are doing is against the Emperor so out you go etc, they don't care if: Donald Trump or Albert Einstein or Vladmir Putin or Barak Obama or William Shakespeare etc etc you stuffing up the way it is suppose to be ... dead... He doesn't care if he/she dies.

] To relate a real world context


Threw in a couple of contemporaries to make relevant...

Feels like Two Face from Batman. The Warmaster will -flips coin- die!

pm713 wrote:
Feels like Two Face from Batman. The Warmaster will -flips coin- die!

Sounds like every politician in every country ever...

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
.

The commissar is the type a person who is like what you are doing is against the Emperor so out you go etc, ...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
.

The commissar is the type a person who is like what you are doing is against the Emperor so out you go etc, ...

... and the subject of their justice has been picked out for a purpose by one of that same Emperor's holy guard.

If Gabriel descended from the heavens to tell the Spanish Inquisition to stop burning that heretic because he had a purpose for him, I don't think the priests would have bothered to quibble.

I was uner the impression that the Spanish Inquisition was the most (in)famous for a reason; because it was used as a tool of political repression by the Spanish state, not as a purely religious institution as in the rest of the Catholic countries. I'm not a student of it, though. Perhaps you're thinking of the suppression of the Cathars in southern France? "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."

bibotot wrote:
These two are entirely different from one another with the former completely ignores all the established logic and common sense and just go with something that is dark. It is utterly stupid and makes me feel like Warhammer 40k is becoming a parody of itself instead of turning the cheese into something entertaining while maintaining its overall tone.

This incident is written in the Custodes Codex which angers me. An Astra Militarum commander is set for execution by the Commissariat for this unorthodox tactics but is saved by the Custodes. He then becomes a warmaster and defeat a major Waaaaagh!. Once it is set then done, the Commissariat executes him. What the hell? There are so many things wrong with this that it makes my brain hurt.

One, Commissars don't execute people for fun. There are 3 ways you will get executed: disobey orders, inappropriate acts (blasphemy, indiscipline, crime against civilians, etc...) and poor leadership (a commander would still get executed for losing too many troops for a victory). The guy in question is already a commander, so he couldn't have disobeyed anyone. Commissars cannot execute people for coming up with different tactics: fighting against Orks is different from Tau and having many different approaches to rely on is necessary. If this commander is executed for unusual way of thinking, Creed, Straken, Marbo and a dozen others would have been shot long ago.

Two, how do Commissars execute a Warmaster? There is a limit as to who the Commissars can execute. They can't execute Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, Mechanicus personnel and Inqusitorial Troops as these belong to different organizations which the Commissar have no authority over. Likewise, a Warmaster is designated by the Lords of Terra. Without authorization from the Lords of Terra themselves, Commissars can't execute a Warmaster.

Three, so he leads a victorious campaign against the Orks and they still execute him? Every Imperial organization allows for repentance and redemption if the sinner is willing. Uriel Ventris was exiled from the Ultramarines because he deviated from the Codex, but later got accepted back and restored as Captain after his exploits in fighting the Iron Warriors.

Well, most of this is actually wrong. Commissars actually can execute people for different tactics (yes, even if successful, and certainly for prioritizing men over mission).
Being a 'commander' or higher isn't any protection from summary execution

Wrath of Iron is a good example of both. As are several versions of the Guard Codex- particularly the ones where available commissars had to be attached to the highest ranking officers and worked down until you ran out of commissars. Executing higher ranking officers was actually the priority!

Yes, Commissars will execute people for divergent tactics and even victory. Ideological purity matters a lot more to the imperium, practicality less.

And not every Imperial organization allows for repentance and redemption, particularly not for normal humans. They are very much disposable (it used to flatly be policy that every guardsmen was killed after facing chaos forces, and every marine mind-wiped).
For exceptional individuals and exceptional deeds? Sure, you can sometimes find redemption. But not most of the time, and certainly not for something as mundane as orks. The Imperium as a whole is not forgiving. Redemption is rare, death is easy.

w1zard wrote:
I have always argued against the stupidity of grimdark for the sake of grimdark, even where it does not make sense. Keep that crap out of my 40k please, the setting does not need to revert into the childishness and self parody it evolved from. A little "grimderp" and a little humor is fine so long as it is injected in a tasteful way, the Ciaphas Cain novels do a wonderful job of this.

The Cain novels are a terrible example. They're a parody of 40k's parody/satire. (And just cribbed from Harry Flashman by Fraser & Hughes)

You can't really have 40k without the grimdark. You're left with... basically nothing.
It can be taken to far, like corruption immune grey knights making themselves more immune by painting themselves with Sisters of Battle, but the grimdark is the basis for the entire property.

Isn't' the commissar Motto:

"Kill any suspect heretic, ask questions later?"

Pretty sure read that and is probably cannon (I get 2 books a month on order for 40k so idk if 40k or some other war biography)

The Imperium bureaucratic machine cares not for your heroic deeds. It expects every citizen to be heroic in times of strife and your personal performance does not mark you as special.

Heck there's a comic in Inferno (original) Issue 2 Bloodquest, where a Marine captain loses 90 brothers and a relic but holds a world against a massive Ork invasion. For the loss of life and relic he's exiled from the order and his name stricken from all records. In that he also leaves with a retinue of his brothers as well - who's names are also stricken from record.


So even within the marines, the best of the best, life is still trivially treated. Granted it wasn't an execution, but its still about as bad as you can get for a Marine of the Emperor.

I swear they need a new writer, for example

The Emperor protects,
As the angels of the fallen descend to the darkness what lights our path is the will from within:
The light blinds our demons, it blinds our misconceptions, it blinds ours woes,
From the blinding fire we will emerge, the faithful, the devout, the will of the Emperor...

bibotot wrote:


Two, how do Commissars execute a Warmaster? There is a limit as to who the Commissars can execute. They can't execute Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, Mechanicus personnel and Inqusitorial Troops as these belong to different organizations which the Commissar have no authority over. Likewise, a Warmaster is designated by the Lords of Terra. Without authorization from the Lords of Terra themselves, Commissars can't execute a Warmaster.

A warmaster or lord solar is appointed by the high lords, but remains a Guard officer and as such subject to commissarial discipline. They'd need to explain themselves to the high lords, but that's not the same thing - that's the benefit of them being outside the rank structure; no one within the Militarum or Battlefleet can ever be 'to high a rank' for them to sanction.

The Custodes cannot make a Warmaster out of someone and expects all the Guardsmen, Space Marines and Imperial Navy would just go with it. That is literally the US army installing a general in the Saudi army.

Horus was the first Warmaster and he was appointed by the Emperor himself. Then you have Slaydo and Macharius, both appointed by the Lords of Terra.

No, because they have Imperial (as in 'speak-with-the-voice-of-the-Emperor', much like inquisitors) authority. It's more like the President of the USA wandering into a US Army lieutenant's court-martial and saying "Case adjourned, here's some general's stars. You're not going to enjoy this mission."

locarno24 wrote:

bibotot wrote:


Two, how do Commissars execute a Warmaster? There is a limit as to who the Commissars can execute. They can't execute Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, Mechanicus personnel and Inqusitorial Troops as these belong to different organizations which the Commissar have no authority over. Likewise, a Warmaster is designated by the Lords of Terra. Without authorization from the Lords of Terra themselves, Commissars can't execute a Warmaster.

A warmaster or lord solar is appointed by the high lords, but remains a Guard officer and as such subject to commissarial discipline. They'd need to explain themselves to the high lords, but that's not the same thing - that's the benefit of them being outside the rank structure; no one within the Militarum or Battlefleet can ever be 'to high a rank' for them to sanction.

The Custodes cannot make a Warmaster out of someone and expects all the Guardsmen, Space Marines and Imperial Navy would just go with it. That is literally the US army installing a general in the Saudi army.

Horus was the first Warmaster and he was appointed by the Emperor himself. Then you have Slaydo and Macharius, both appointed by the Lords of Terra.

No, because they have Imperial (as in 'speak-with-the-voice-of-the-Emperor', much like inquisitors) authority. It's more like the President of the USA wandering into a US Army lieutenant's court-martial and saying "Case adjourned, here's some general's stars. You're not going to enjoy this mission."

Blar de blar, EDITED: for diplomatic reasons

bibotot wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Where does it say that a Commissar cant execute a Warmaster? Commissars are the authority of imperial Law within the
In this example, the High Lords didn't make him a Warmaster, the Custodes did (who exist outside the High Lords), so it could be argued that he was a condemned man under the protection of the Custodes. And once that protection was gone......

The Custodes cannot make a Warmaster out of someone and expects all the Guardsmen, Space Marines and Imperial Navy would just go with it. That is literally the US army installing a general in the Saudi army.

No, it isn't even figuratively close to that. (That is also a bad example, as the US Army has actually installed a few foreign generals in some parts of the world)

Who has precedence in the Imperium can be confusing, but it is all one system, and the Guard (or Imperial Navy) is almost never on top. Astartes usually have precedence in whatever theatre they're operating in, though Titan Legions and other Ad Mech outfits are usually off to the side somewhere (as the Mechanicus is an independent ally of the Imperium in most of the ways that matter), and have to be asked, not ordered, to participate.

The big question isn't if Custodes or Astartes can mess about with Guard ranks and command authority, but if they'd notice or bother. General opinion of novels, codexes and other background material is they can, but generally don't as long as the guard units are pointed in the correct direction, shooting enemies and soaking fire. If they aren't doing that, the Marines may not even wait for the Commissars to cull the officer corps, they may just preemptively do it themselves. Most chapters won't care if a general or a lieutenant is giving the advance order, as long as someone is giving it and the troops are obeying.

Voss wrote:

bibotot wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Where does it say that a Commissar cant execute a Warmaster? Commissars are the authority of imperial Law within the
In this example, the High Lords didn't make him a Warmaster, the Custodes did (who exist outside the High Lords), so it could be argued that he was a condemned man under the protection of the Custodes. And once that protection was gone......

The Custodes cannot make a Warmaster out of someone and expects all the Guardsmen, Space Marines and Imperial Navy would just go with it. That is literally the US army installing a general in the Saudi army.

No, it isn't even figuratively close to that. (That is also a bad example, as the US Army has actually installed a few foreign generals in some parts of the world)

Who has precedence in the Imperium can be confusing, but it is all one system, and the Guard (or Imperial Navy) is almost never on top. Astartes usually have precedence in whatever theatre they're operating in, though Titan Legions and other Ad Mech outfits are usually off to the side somewhere (as the Mechanicus is an independent ally of the Imperium in most of the ways that matter), and have to be asked, not ordered, to participate.

The big question isn't if Custodes or Astartes can mess about with Guard ranks and command authority, but if they'd notice or bother. General opinion of novels, codexes and other background material is they can, but generally don't as long as the guard units are pointed in the correct direction, shooting enemies and soaking fire. If they aren't doing that, the Marines may not even wait for the Commissars to cull the officer corps, they may just preemptively do it themselves. Most chapters won't care if a general or a lieutenant is giving the advance order, as long as someone is giving it and the troops are obeying.

The Astartes can commander whatever they want but like any military the Navy always take it ( ). However, a commissar can always surpass any order because suspect heretical destination.

Voss wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I have always argued against the stupidity of grimdark for the sake of grimdark, even where it does not make sense. Keep that crap out of my 40k please, the setting does not need to revert into the childishness and self parody it evolved from. A little "grimderp" and a little humor is fine so long as it is injected in a tasteful way, the Ciaphas Cain novels do a wonderful job of this.

The Cain novels are a terrible example. They're a parody of 40k's parody/satire. (And just cribbed from Harry Flashman by Fraser & Hughes)

You can't really have 40k without the grimdark. You're left with... basically nothing.
It can be taken to far, like corruption immune grey knights making themselves more immune by painting themselves with Sisters of Battle, but the grimdark is the basis for the entire property.

Absolutely disagree.

Grimdark is the seasoning, and the setting itself is the meat. The seasoning gives the meat its flavor sure, but you can over-season your meat and then it tastes terrible.

Yes, Cain is a blackadder/flashman copy. But the stories are done so well... The author manages to keep the seriousness of the setting (Cain knows he will executed if his true inner nature comes to light) and maintain an appropriately serious narrative while injecting humor into the character's inner dialogue rather than the story itself.

TBH, I'm glad the setting seems to be moving away from the "grimdarkest of the grimdark" stuff like executing everyone involved with fighting chaos (waste of resources, even from a purely pragmatic point of view). It is childish and stretches suspension of disbelief IMO.

The setting may have started in a place more like you describe, but it is rapidly changing, and good riddance. I want to actually tell people that I like warhammer 40k and have them treat me as seriously as if I said I liked star trek.

There is precedent on the highest level for executing war masters...