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 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel like we can reel back a bit on the animosity regarding the competitiveness of Orks. That'll become more apparent in a few months and is easier to revisit then, the pool of tournaments since post CA are still a bit too small IMO.

In an attempt to return to the tactics part of the thread I had a game yesterday and another one a few days before that. I still feel like a mechanised build won't work at the highest tier but they absolutely work at semi competitive tournaments IMO. You gotta keep trying to switch things out and see what works but the basic issue is that too many things lack either the punch or durability to truly work at high level games. But a couple of unis still do solid work basically everytime I bring them out..

I'm still awestruck at just how good the bonebreaka is at mulching a screening unit all by itself. It's a liability if you face IK or lists geared towards killing IK but I'm still having a hard time getting my mechanised lists work without them + the nob squad hiding inside it.

Also, with even more playtesting I can't see myself leaving the home without the Souped-up shokka big mek. He doesn't always get the job done but I don't think I've ever had a game where he didn't get his points back and the psychological terror he brings to anything that lacks an invul is just great.

The weirdboy is still doing great work, Fists of Gork is such an amazing power. It actually makes the Deffkilla scary in CC combined with Brutal but kunning (& maybe the supa cybork body). Without any of those things he's pretty tame. I mean, he still is compared to some of the index options.. But the Killa jet is actually ending up a lot more useful than I though it'd be. I mostly use the skorcha profile (why is it called burna?) to roast something on the way but those meltas have helped so many times to remove a damaged vehicle roadblock my opponent sets up.

I'm so close to loving the shokkjump dragsta, it's one of the most fun units to play and often manages to get me a few secure objective/equivalent points that I shouldn't have been able to get. But it's just sooo expensive for it's durability, especially because once the opponent actually fires at it it often only has 6 wounds left due to it hurting itself. And 24" guns leaves it too exposed.

Mechanised orks in general certainly need some help, everytime I play against a new opponent and get first turn they seems so disheartened when I kill like 33% of their army (mostly chaff and like one armoured target). Then when they get to shoot back they realise that everything folds like damp paper and the games end up close a lot of the time. If I don't go first (or face plasma spam) then you end up tabled T3 in a lot of cases. I have found that flyers help out quite a bit for me though, since you get such an insane threat in your opponents face T1 that target priority can sometimes become a bit wonky.

Even though it'd screw snakebites over I wonder if not every ork vehicle should get the ramshackle rule. It's a fun rule and it'd help a little bit at least.

Can you provide some sample lists?

I'm still unsure what to get for my next purchase. Shokkjump seems a given, but I'm unsure whether I should get just the jumper or the whole speedfreeks box since the KBB and the warbikers aren't exactly stellar. While it's still a good deal for those bikes, I could have a scrapjet and a wartrike instead.
I have a boomdakka snazzwagon that I proxy as a KBB right now, so does running two KBB make sense?
Do you have a KFF in your lists, if so, which one?
What is your opinion on the snazztrike relic?

Here's the competitive 2k list I currently workin towards (need those Wazzbom jets) that's Evil Sunz and actually has speed freek type units:



I've tried to organise it so the roles are quite obvious.

30+10 boyz mob up, get warpath on them and go in T1 (Da Jump) with the bikes and KBB who soften up targets in shooting also. That's the chaff clear (hopefully). The other weird boy saunters up and tries to get FoG off on the Trikeboss so he can soften up a mechanical target for the KillaKlaw boss to finish.

Grots and SAG Mek sit back and take objectives/blow gak up. Yes I'm aware the detachment is immediately better as Bad Moonz. No I'm not changing. The other Big Mek is a healbot for those flyers, buggies and boss (so needs to be ES). He runs up and tries to heal them.

The buggies are annoyances that I don't expect to last past turn 2, but they will engage first turn if they're alive.

The Wazzboms are key, they provide the first turn KFF if I go second and they are the primary anti armour. The flyer strat you suggested using is going to be winner vs Eldar and other flying vehicles that aren't actual flyers.

I think it'll play fun and fluffy while being able to hopefully throw the opponent off with target priority issues. It lacks staying power so healing with the Mek and using LOS blocking terrain will be key. It is FAST. Need to use the speed to your advantage.

E - format.

Hey folks, couple of posts got dinged here for their tone and presentation of replies, I would kindly like to remind all participants of this thread that Rule #1, to be polite, is not optional. Cheers!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

Here's the competitive 2k list I currently workin towards (need those Wazzbom jets) that's Evil Sunz and actually has speed freek type units:

[spoiler]
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [34 PL, 8CP, 651pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 99pts]: Attack Squig, Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw, Shoota (Index), Warlord

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 210pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [4 PL, 70pts]: Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [11 PL, 210pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [12 PL, 2CP, 229pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

Detachment CP [5CP]

Extra Gubbins (1/3 CP) [-1CP]: 1 Extra Shiny Gubbins

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaaagh!

+ HQ +

Big Mek (Index) [5 PL, -1CP, 55pts]: Choppa, Dread Mek, Slugga, Stratagem: Field Commander

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Orks) [55 PL, 1CP, 1119pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

Detachment CP [1CP]

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 4. Fists of Gork

+ Fast Attack +

Kustom Boosta Blastas [5 PL, 100pts]: Kustom Boosta Blastas

Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

Shokkjump Dragstas [6 PL, 120pts]
. Shokkjump Dragstas: Rokkit Launcha

Warbikers [14 PL, 289pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 11x Warbiker: 11x Stikkbombs

+ Flyer +

Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 159pts]: 2x Wazbom Mega-Kannons, Kustom Force Field, Smasha Gun

Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 159pts]: 2x Wazbom Mega-Kannons, Kustom Force Field, Smasha Gun

++ Total: [101 PL, 11CP, 1999pts] ++

I've tried to organise it so the roles are quite obvious.

30+10 boyz mob up, get warpath on them and go in T1 (Da Jump) with the bikes and KBB who soften up targets in shooting also. That's the chaff clear (hopefully). The other weird boy saunters up and tries to get FoG off on the Trikeboss so he can soften up a mechanical target for the KillaKlaw boss to finish.

Grots and SAG Mek sit back and take objectives/blow gak up. Yes I'm aware the detachment is immediately better as Bad Moonz. No I'm not changing. The other Big Mek is a healbot for those flyers, buggies and boss (so needs to be ES). He runs up and tries to heal them.

The buggies are annoyances that I don't expect to last past turn 2, but they will engage first turn if they're alive.

The Wazzboms are key, they provide the first turn KFF if I go second and they are the primary anti armour. The flyer strat you suggested using is going to be winner vs Eldar and other flying vehicles that aren't actual flyers.

I think it'll play fun and fluffy while being able to hopefully throw the opponent off with target priority issues. It lacks staying power so healing with the Mek and using LOS blocking terrain will be key. It is FAST. Need to use the speed to your advantage.[/spoiler]

E - format.

I really like your list but that's no real shocker. I feel more and more that the airwing detachment is the mechanised lists' friend. I actually like the burna-bommer as the third plane because it's 1, cheap and 2, blows up big. Just fly it all the way up T1, hopefully over a random chaff squad but mostly to be annoying and block them from moving out. They don't wanna shoot it down most likely since it blows up so big. I still haven't actually bought another plane to try out the dual wazbom strategy yet so keep us posted on how that works. Right now I mostly run 1 wazbom, 1 dakkajet and 1 burna-bommer. The DJ & BB are handy for movement blocking in general, something that's rarely the case with the wazboms since you need them for auras.

I never run quite as many boyz as you do, mostly because I don't really enjoy playing with that many models. I run one blob of 30 and another 10 man max but they do bring a lot of upside. That means more of a reliance on nobz, who usually do good work. I still haven't cracked quite fully how to make the most out of MANZ yet though. Against some lists they just get outmaneuvered and stuck in the middle of nowhere..

PiñaColada wrote:

I really like your list but that's no real shocker. I feel more and more that the airwing detachment is the mechanised lists' friend. I actually like the burna-bommer as the third plane because it's 1, cheap and 2, blows up big. Just fly it all the way up T1, hopefully over a random chaff squad but mostly to be annoying and block them from moving out. They don't wanna shoot it down most likely since it blows up so big. I still haven't actually bought another plane to try out the dual wazbom strategy yet so keep us posted on how that works. Right now I mostly run 1 wazbom, 1 dakkajet and 1 burna-bommer. The DJ & BB are handy for movement blocking in general, something that's rarely the case with the wazboms since you need them for auras.

Ha I thought you might like the list! :-P I think you may be right with the airwing and BB, particularly for blocking shenanigans. I have a dakkajet and its never really performed brilliantly. Its decent for sniping characters but that's about it. Not much is scared of the supa shoota. I'll let you know how I get on with the wbbj once I've got them on the table.

I never run quite as many boyz as you do, mostly because I don't really enjoy playing with that many models. I run one blob of 30 and another 10 man max but they do bring a lot of upside. That means more of a reliance on nobz, who usually do good work. I still haven't cracked quite fully how to make the most out of MANZ yet though. Against some lists they just get outmaneuvered and stuck in the middle of nowhere..

I like to commit to as few things as possible and swamp with them. Nobs are not bad units but D2+ weapons make very short work of them and they are too fragile to load with expensive PKs or BCs IMO. Particularly PKs because they then hit on 4s. YMMV of course.

The 30 Boyz follow the first 40 to really hit home if needs or they grab/contest an objective depending on the state of play. They can also Green Tide if the opponent doesn't kill them all in a turn.

For me the problem with MANZ isn't their speed, its their output. They just feel weak as gak. PKs hitting on 4s? 3 attacks a pop? Be still my beating heart. Obviously tarpit screens love them and can catch them easily enough too because they are slow as hell as you've mentioned. I don't know, I see talk online about them getting taken in groups of 10 x 2 and mobbing up but without Waaaggghh! Banner support it feels like a bit of a damp squib to me.

that is something i always feel odd doing...
In past editions and even in the index i ran minimum 3x30 boyz and often went 4x30. In the new dex i almost never run more than 2x30, even in bigger games. I have a 4k list that still has only 60 boyz in it.
It feels really weird to do that but i feel horribly gimped if i run more than that unless i go full green tide. And green tide is boring so i wont do that. I guess because i tend to never get any mileage out of the toyz unless i just spam them. When i run walkers for example i run the whole shebang lol... 6 kanz 3 dreads and a mork.

My experience so far in this edition is that:

Grotz are useless except as CP batteries and shields for a Lootabomb, they die to fast, their morale is piss poor and they inflict ZERO damage against most targets (I don't need your anecdotal story about that one time a grot killed a terminator)

Lootas are terrible except in a lootabomba and require massive investments in both CP and grots to make sure it lasts more than 1 turn....and god help you against most competitive lists if you don't mulch their anti-infantry weapons by the end of your 1st turn or at most 2nd because your grots will be dead and your loota bomb after that.

Nothing in our FA slot is worth taking unless you are filling out minimums for a brigade. Stormboyz are just more expensive boyz.

Kanz are a liability due to slow movement, lack of ranged damage and firepower in general and the fact that if you ever get them into CC they kind of suck for their points....terminators are better in CC and are cheaper than kanz.

DeffDreadz same boat as the Kanz but can be funny to deepstrike and use a strat to have them bum rush something.

Boyz.....pathetically they are still probably the best unit in our codex which is sad because they didn't get any better from Index and I would argue they actually got worse even with the Klan buffs but not stratagems.. spending some CP to take a borderline dead mob and bring it back to full strength is just fun.

Burnas.....useless, literally useless, anything they do can be done better and cheaper by boyz and a number of other units.

Tankbustas....Okish, still require a trukk or wagon to be used and that makes them useless when it comes to strats...which sucks because doing a drive by with Tankbustas using the grenade strat would be fun, but as it currently stands its a suicide run because your boyz will die the next turn.

Meganobz....still too expensive and not enough dakka and not durable enough to justify their presence on the board.

Nobz of all flavor....too expensive, too flimsy and are can be replaced with more boyz.

Naughtz....Fun, but not really practical because they cost as much as a knight but don't pack as much of a ranged punch and don't come stock with a invuln unless you pay extra for it (morkanaut)

at the moment my current list is a loota bomb, lots of grots to be shields, a fethload of boyz, 60 of which i keep in reserve to deep strike and a couple of Bonecrusha's to deepstrike with my boyz for a super strong beta strike.

It sucks ork flyers can't pivot twice. If they could my list would have just have like 9 of them zipping around like absolute mad lads.

I had an idea for the bomma. Is it possible to deliberately move it less than 20". Although this would destroy it, the idea would be to move it into the centre of your opponents lines t1 and use a cp reroll on the explosion.

Minimum movement means just that. You must move 20" if possible, and you are not allowed to move off the table deliberately.

So the only way to blow your burna yourself is to navigate it into a corner, so earliest turn 2. Note that when you cannot do the minimum move due to your opponent blocking off all possible places where you could move, the bommer explodes without moving first.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ha I thought you might like the list! :-P I think you may be right with the airwing and BB, particularly for blocking shenanigans. I have a dakkajet and its never really performed brilliantly. Its decent for sniping characters but that's about it. Not much is scared of the supa shoota. I'll let you know how I get on with the wbbj once I've got them on the table.

I like to commit to as few things as possible and swamp with them. Nobs are not bad units but D2+ weapons make very short work of them and they are too fragile to load with expensive PKs or BCs IMO. Particularly PKs because they then hit on 4s. YMMV of course.

The 30 Boyz follow the first 40 to really hit home if needs or they grab/contest an objective depending on the state of play. They can also Green Tide if the opponent doesn't kill them all in a turn.

For me the problem with MANZ isn't their speed, its their output. They just feel weak as gak. PKs hitting on 4s? 3 attacks a pop? Be still my beating heart. Obviously tarpit screens love them and can catch them easily enough too because they are slow as hell as you've mentioned. I don't know, I see talk online about them getting taken in groups of 10 x 2 and mobbing up but without Waaaggghh! Banner support it feels like a bit of a damp squib to me.

I've had pretty decent success with the dakkajet, even though I run them suboptimally (as evil sunz) like you. With "long, uncontrolled bursts" I've wiped squads of inceptors several times as they're fly but not hard to hit. Those guys are also a terror for normal boyz so having a platform that wipes them quick is nice, although obviously there are plenty of other options in the codex to do that. Usually I just use the DJ to wipe my opponents second line of chaff though, since the first is going to get chomped in CC (Gork willing).

My nobz generally die quick when they are out of their transport but if my opponent blows it up then at least they have a 3+ save (with loot it) so they're somewhat surviveable. But usually I run them into a bunch of things and swamp my opponent with attacks, my loadout (5BC+C, 2PS+C &3C+C) is pretty cheap and if they're warpathed I've found them effective against anything that isn't T8. That T8 is the issue though, that's why I want to make MANZ work. I think they're too expensive, but that's mostly due to the weapons not so much the base cost of the model. I think it's a real shame they can't take an ammo runt per 3 MANZ so you can put them in transports without worrying as much. I run mine as dual killsaws which makes them pretty killy in CC but for 43 frickin' points each they are too easy to kill or ignore. T8 in general is just tough to deal with as Orks, sure we can throw in an HQ to deal with it but usually that's a suicide mission. There aren't too many other CC options and basically no shooting will hurt it on 3+. The bonebreaka is good, as long as we're not talking about IK (meaning they can hit back) since they hit oh-so-hard when undegraded. But boy do they degrade, and die easily!

I dunno, the experimentation continues but I'd sure like it if they updated the point costs of the worst offenders in the spring FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Minimum movement means just that. You must move 20" if possible, and you are not allowed to move off the table deliberately.

So the only way to blow your burna yourself is to navigate it into a corner, so earliest turn 2. Note that when you cannot do the minimum move due to your opponent blocking off all possible places where you could move, the bommer explodes without moving first.

Totally trust you but I've had this come up during a game, do you know where that is stated by any chance?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I've tried to organise it so the roles are quite obvious.

30+10 boyz mob up, get warpath on them and go in T1 (Da Jump) with the bikes and KBB who soften up targets in shooting also. That's the chaff clear (hopefully). The other weird boy saunters up and tries to get FoG off on the Trikeboss so he can soften up a mechanical target for the KillaKlaw boss to finish.

So what's your thoughts on bringing two KBB?

Grots and SAG Mek sit back and take objectives/blow gak up. Yes I'm aware the detachment is immediately better as Bad Moonz. No I'm not changing. The other Big Mek is a healbot for those flyers, buggies and boss (so needs to be ES). He runs up and tries to heal them.

Eh, my army is Blood Axes which basically translates to "Sorry, you have no kulture. Wanna trade a relic for a warlord trait?". Picking best kultures for detachments is the least of my worries
If anything, I'll start to paint all my new models blue and switch to deff skulls, just so I have a reason to run my trukkboyz again.

I think it'll play fun and fluffy while being able to hopefully throw the opponent off with target priority issues. It lacks staying power so healing with the Mek and using LOS blocking terrain will be key. It is FAST. Need to use the speed to your advantage.

One of the main reasons I want to invest into some speedy stuff is to get rid of as many boyz from my list as possible. I really hate moving those droves of models since the placement for every single one matters when you reach combat, it just makes my games much less enjoyable. For competitive games I'm running Death Guard anyways, so fun and fluffy is exactly what I'm looking for - I'll be facing wraith armies, imperial fists or tzeench daemons with them, not Castellans or Eldar soup.

PiñaColada wrote:
II never run quite as many boyz as you do, mostly because I don't really enjoy playing with that many models. I run one blob of 30 and another 10 man max but they do bring a lot of upside. That means more of a reliance on nobz, who usually do good work. I still haven't cracked quite fully how to make the most out of MANZ yet though. Against some lists they just get outmaneuvered and stuck in the middle of nowhere..

How many nobz do your run, and how are they equipped? I have had good runs with 3 PK/7 dual choppas and 5 BC/5 dual choppas, though the first one mostly stemms from what models I have available. They do ok-ish though.

Thanks you both for your feedback. One last question: How do you feel about adding a Morkanaut to the list? You both seem to be running the dread detachment for the super-SAG anyways so it would have access to shoot twice stratagem without extra cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Minimum movement means just that. You must move 20" if possible, and you are not allowed to move off the table deliberately.

So the only way to blow your burna yourself is to navigate it into a corner, so earliest turn 2. Note that when you cannot do the minimum move due to your opponent blocking off all possible places where you could move, the bommer explodes without moving first.

Totally trust you but I've had this come up during a game, do you know where that is stated by any chance?

Basically in the rule itself. You have no permission whatsoever to move models off the table outside of certain missions, a flier is no different to an ork boyz in that regard. If you can make a legal move, your are not forced to move off the table.

Just had a rather awesome game. Using the Chapter approved mission with the single objective that turns off invuls around it and gradually shrinks in the capture range.

I used 3 units of meganobs in bonebreakas.
Ran a megamek with KFF
a KFF biker Mek
a deffkilla wartrike
and a waaghbanner on the side.
Oh and 30 grots. But honestly who gives a damn about them.

The opponent had was running Blood Angels

Smash captain
Libby dread
Chaplain and Sang Priest
some scouts and intercessors
5 shield termies
death comp dread
a unit of death company
and finally a stormraven

All in all the MANZ held their own, murdering anything they touched and soaking up a tonne of firepower. Though good help you if you have the new 5' tall buildings.
Having a trio of Bonebreakers is fairly brutal, running over the dreads, characters and death company all up. Not a competitive game by any means but goddamn was it a close and fun game.

The only struggle was dealing with the flyer as I had almost no shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
II never run quite as many boyz as you do, mostly because I don't really enjoy playing with that many models. I run one blob of 30 and another 10 man max but they do bring a lot of upside. That means more of a reliance on nobz, who usually do good work. I still haven't cracked quite fully how to make the most out of MANZ yet though. Against some lists they just get outmaneuvered and stuck in the middle of nowhere..

How many nobz do your run, and how are they equipped? I have had good runs with 3 PK/7 dual choppas and 5 BC/5 dual choppas, though the first one mostly stemms from what models I have available. They do ok-ish though.

Thanks you both for your feedback. One last question: How do you feel about adding a Morkanaut to the list? You both seem to be running the dread detachment for the super-SAG anyways so it would have access to shoot twice stratagem without extra cost.

I run my main Nobsquad with 5 Big Choppas + choppas, 2 with power stabbas + choppas and 3 with dual choppas (and 2 runts), those guys are brought in almost all my games. Usually I have another 5-10 nobz in my list and sometimes up to 5 MANZ. MANZ i always run with dual killsaws but as I mentioned previously they rarely do what I want them to, some games they are amazing but usually they don't do nearly enough. The other nobz I bring are kitted out similarly to the first squad but I often just run the PS & DC nobz from that squad. Then they're cheap at least. I personally don't like the PK since it's so expensive (basically costs the same as another nob) and the damage output is hardly consistent. But that main nobsquad usually does good work, I use warpath on them and charge plenty of soft targets that won't really hurt them in CC (like multiple units of chaff or stuff like tanks if I get that opportunity obviously) and if they don't get the work done you can just fight with them again. Almost anything that isn't T8 will crumble under their weight of attacks but since you have a squad kitted out roughly the same I'm sure you've already noticed that.

Regarding the Morkanaut I don't own one but that's mostly due to the fact that I also have IK and therefore I feel set on big walker models. It does seem like a decent target for "Kustom Ammo" and getting a KFF with a big base on the board. I dislike the fact that the KFF strat (though overcosted) only works with big meks however. Had it been any model with a KFF for 2CP then I could really see myself using it quite a bit. I personally feel like the super SAG is a good use of Kustom Ammo anyways but I'm also okay with it being a complete waste as an outcome half the times when the other half are mind-bogglingly good. That only works if you have some redundancy in damage output coming from somewhere else.

 Jidmah wrote:

Basically in the rule itself. You have no permission whatsoever to move models off the table outside of certain missions, a flier is no different to an ork boyz in that regard. If you can make a legal move, your are not forced to move off the table.

No, I meant does it state anywhere that if it cannot move, it blows up on the spot? That's how I played it (the one time it came up) but my opponent argued that it's no longer on the field and shouldn't even blow up, just disappear and I couldn't find the rule so we just rolled off.

What do you need to take a relic sag?

I just finished 2nd (1pt from the winner) at a local 1750pts tournament with Deathskulls and wanted to share this experience with you guys. You'll find my list in SPOILER at the end, with comments.

The MA Warboss and the 10 boyz unit went into the Bonebreaka every game and I spent 2CP for Tellyporta.
The Defkilla and Nobz were used as guided missiles and screen clearing
The SAG and Lootas usually castled up with Grots around them

First game : Raven Guard with only bikers, venerable dreadnoughts and infantry. Most of the game was spent trying to hit them on 6's, needless to say that it was really frustrating. My SAG paid for himself twice but I had to spend 4CP on him on first turn and 3CP to bring the 30 Boyz back after a devastating 1st turn. I was already out of CP by turn 2. The game ended on turn 3 or 4 by me making a big mistake : my opponent advanced his bikes 20" to contest an objective and shot with his Rapid Fire weapons, which was illegal. I didn't catch that until later... Too bad, it cost me the game. My MA Warboss died against his Biker Chapter master, scoring 1 wound and getting almost auto-killed by Thunder hammer. End result : 9-11

Second game : Alaitoc painted as Iyanden. Yeah... Another -1 to hit. He had 2x3 Warwalkers, a Hemlock, Dark Reapers, Fire dragons, several psykers and at least 2 Serpents. This time it went better as I managed to blow up 3 Warwalkers on first turn with my Lootas (Moar dakka) and a Waveserpent with my Deffkilla (2 melta shots = 3 hits, 10 damage...). Charged the Firedragons that disembarked, killed them, pilled into the Dark Reapers. The game was pretty much over. Still, he managed to snipe my SAG with his Hemlock with silly Eldar shenanigans. The game ended with him being tabled and my Grots catching the Relic. End resultt : 20-0

Third game : Alpha legion painted as Black legion. Yeah... ANOTHER -1 to hit. This is getting silly. His list was mass cultists with Abaddon, 2x3 Obliterators, a few havocs with LC and plenty of buffing characters (Dark Apostle, Exalted Champ and 2 Sorcerers). He got first turn and proceeded to charge half my army with close combat cultists. I lost 30 Grots and 10 Boyz before I could even strike. I retaliated by wiping at least 40 cultists. Second turn Abaddon joined the fray, failled his charge, and he tried to use Warptime on a unit of cultists that just had been brought back with Tide of traitors, but I was unsure if it was allowed so called-up a referee that ruled he couldn't. The following turn was crucial as I had to kill Abaddon with my SAG. I got 2 wounds... Which he saved. I was pretty frustrated but remembered Kustom Ammo ! I shot again, got 2 wounds in, but Abaddon halves damage. I rolled, got a 2. Re-rolled as I was a Deathskull, got a 6 ! Second roll was a natural 6... Abaddon died, humiliated (he had lost a wound earlier). My Bonebreaka lost 12 wounds in CC against his Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion... Crazy rolling on his part. I forgot to deal the Mortal wounds with our 3d6 charge strat, which saved his ass. Fortunately, my Nobz and Deffkilla managed to kill the Havocs and Obliterators. Tabled again. End result : 20-0.

Overall, I was pretty satisfied of how it turned out. Had I not made a mistake at the end of the first game, I might have won... Or not, as I would have had different opponents. Anyway, the permanent -1 to hit was a REAL pain and frankly, I hope it goes away eventually as it's really ruining balanced. I let you know what I thought of each unit below.

Army list + comments :

 koooaei wrote:
What do you need to take a relic sag?

Short answer: 1 CP
Long answer: Use the stratagem for the vigilus dread mob special detachment. A big mek in that detachment can replace his SAG with the relic SAG.

Do you need to pay 1 extra cp for the second relic?

You pay 1 CP for the specialist detachment. The relic SAG is taken like any other relic, so free if it's your first or 1/3 CP if you take it via stratagem.

Still might be worth it in ork gunline lists i guess. Double-shooting sag would be hilarious vs something without high invils and average toughness...like...nothing really. Still worth trying.

SO i was having a debate on which army can do the best mechanized list (80% points must be vehicles). in making them I was surprised how well I think the orks could do

I am not sure most lists out there could deal with it... thoghts on mec orks of how to better do a mostly mechanized list

ended up being 3 outrider detachments, all deathskulls

war trike x2 warboss on bike with da killa claw

10x gretchin x3

kustom boosta wagon x3
scrapjet x3
shokjump dragster x3

traktor cannon x3

waazboom blasta jet
dakka jet x2

With 3 gretchin units, why go with 3 outriders instead of a batallion and an outrider?

I'm also interested in a mechanized list, mostly because I don't want to shuffle around (or convert/paint) hundreds of infantry models. Very interested in how this plays, and whether it's better to bring all buggies or mix in some walkers.

Also, why traktor cannons over smasha guns? I like it because I'd rather build traktor cannons than smasha guns, but am wondering what drove that choice.

Mechanised lists are great fun to play and build, especially for orks IMO. The above list should indeed make two of the outriders into a battalion & the planes into an airwing barring any type of restrictions in that specific scenario. And yes, maybe Orks hold up fairly well if you have an arbitrary 80% mechanised limit but that's against other mech lists. As me and An Actual Englishman have discussed you do run into some real issues against tough competition though.

The traktor kannons are often not as good value as the smashas (but those are insane value) however you can hide them behind terrain just barely T1 so if you don't get to go first the opponent can't draw LoS and when it's your turn to shoot you simply move them 3" and fire because you auto-hit anyways.

As a general tip I have a hard time seeing mass buggies working before they get their prices slashed, I usually bring 4 and that's still a pretty big investment. You need planes to make mechanised lists work IMO and there's an argument for all of them except the blitz-bomma I think.

CP difference is the big one to me.
Two battalions gives more than enough slots for a mechanized list and for the overall cost of 1.5 buggies worth of more HQs and grot requirements you get a gakton more CP.
Vehicles arent as CP hungry as foot orks but you still want to use a lot of stratagems, particularly tellyporta and ramming speed.

3 outrider detachments is just 6cp. Thats nothing. Even just bumping one to a battalion for ~160pts more in HQ + Grots makes it 10CP, which is enough to actually do something.
I really wish they'd up the CP gain from those side detachments. Theyre supposed to let you bring an army in a lot of themes and builds but the CP starvation kinda kills any attempt at that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
CP difference is the big one to me.
Two battalions gives more than enough slots for a mechanized list and for the overall cost of 1.5 buggies worth of more HQs and grot requirements you get a gakton more CP.
Vehicles arent as CP hungry as foot orks but you still want to use a lot of stratagems, particularly tellyporta and ramming speed.

3 outrider detachments is just 6cp. Thats nothing. Even just bumping one to a battalion for ~160pts more in HQ + Grots makes it 10CP, which is enough to actually do something.
I really wish they'd up the CP gain from those side detachments. Theyre supposed to let you bring an army in a lot of themes and builds but the CP starvation kinda kills any attempt at that.

Yeah, its practically mandatory for you to take at least one battalion alongside any of the other more specialized detachments, especially if you're taking the Vigilus ones, which sets you back even further for CP.

What do you think the right CP bonus for the non-brigade/battalion/patrol detachments should be? I feel like 2-3 CP would be right around the money. Enough CP's to warrant taking one as an add-on or standalone, not enough to warrant spamming over brigades and double battalions.

i think 2 is enough. There needs to be somewhat of a reward for filling out a "proper" force but at the same token completely starving the more specialized ones is unfair.
I dont think some of them should be worth more than others since thats codex dependent if its a more expensive requirement or not. Heavy is usually expensive models but uh....orks can field super duper cheap heavy slots lol...

All the codexes i am aware of the vast bulk of their stratagems revolve around troops so a mechanized list doesnt NEED as much CP but still does need it.

SemperMortis wrote:
My experience so far in this edition is that:

Spoiler:

Grotz are useless except as CP batteries and shields for a Lootabomb, they die to fast, their morale is piss poor and they inflict ZERO damage against most targets (I don't need your anecdotal story about that one time a grot killed a terminator)

Lootas are terrible except in a lootabomba and require massive investments in both CP and grots to make sure it lasts more than 1 turn....and god help you against most competitive lists if you don't mulch their anti-infantry weapons by the end of your 1st turn or at most 2nd because your grots will be dead and your loota bomb after that.

Nothing in our FA slot is worth taking unless you are filling out minimums for a brigade. Stormboyz are just more expensive boyz.

Kanz are a liability due to slow movement, lack of ranged damage and firepower in general and the fact that if you ever get them into CC they kind of suck for their points....terminators are better in CC and are cheaper than kanz.

DeffDreadz same boat as the Kanz but can be funny to deepstrike and use a strat to have them bum rush something.

Boyz.....pathetically they are still probably the best unit in our codex which is sad because they didn't get any better from Index and I would argue they actually got worse even with the Klan buffs but not stratagems.. spending some CP to take a borderline dead mob and bring it back to full strength is just fun.

Burnas.....useless, literally useless, anything they do can be done better and cheaper by boyz and a number of other units.

Tankbustas....Okish, still require a trukk or wagon to be used and that makes them useless when it comes to strats...which sucks because doing a drive by with Tankbustas using the grenade strat would be fun, but as it currently stands its a suicide run because your boyz will die the next turn.

Meganobz....still too expensive and not enough dakka and not durable enough to justify their presence on the board.

Nobz of all flavor....too expensive, too flimsy and are can be replaced with more boyz.

Naughtz....Fun, but not really practical because they cost as much as a knight but don't pack as much of a ranged punch and don't come stock with a invuln unless you pay extra for it (morkanaut)

at the moment my current list is a loota bomb, lots of grots to be shields, a fethload of boyz, 60 of which i keep in reserve to deep strike and a couple of Bonecrusha's to deepstrike with my boyz for a super strong beta strike.

I agreee with all of this. Really disappointed your ‘how to fix Orks?’ thread never went anywhere. I guess we are a secondary or tertiary faction for many.

PiñaColada wrote:

I've had pretty decent success with the dakkajet, even though I run them suboptimally (as evil sunz) like you. With "long, uncontrolled bursts" I've wiped squads of inceptors several times as they're fly but not hard to hit. Those guys are also a terror for normal boyz so having a platform that wipes them quick is nice, although obviously there are plenty of other options in the codex to do that. Usually I just use the DJ to wipe my opponents second line of chaff though, since the first is going to get chomped in CC (Gork willing).

My nobz generally die quick when they are out of their transport but if my opponent blows it up then at least they have a 3+ save (with loot it) so they're somewhat surviveable. But usually I run them into a bunch of things and swamp my opponent with attacks, my loadout (5BC+C, 2PS+C &3C+C) is pretty cheap and if they're warpathed I've found them effective against anything that isn't T8. That T8 is the issue though, that's why I want to make MANZ work. I think they're too expensive, but that's mostly due to the weapons not so much the base cost of the model. I think it's a real shame they can't take an ammo runt per 3 MANZ so you can put them in transports without worrying as much. I run mine as dual killsaws which makes them pretty killy in CC but for 43 frickin' points each they are too easy to kill or ignore. T8 in general is just tough to deal with as Orks, sure we can throw in an HQ to deal with it but usually that's a suicide mission. There aren't too many other CC options and basically no shooting will hurt it on 3+. The bonebreaka is good, as long as we're not talking about IK (meaning they can hit back) since they hit oh-so-hard when undegraded. But boy do they degrade, and die

Yea no doubt the DJ has its place depending on your meta. For me though I have enough other units in my list that can do it’s iob well enough, with the bikes and buggies that usually focus on the second layer of screen in their shooting phase.
I wonder if Bonebreakers might be our most viable T8 killing unit. Particularly in a mech/biker list. They are only slightly over costed and relatively tough if covered by a KFF plus they can be filled with Boyz to give them protection. I don’t have my codex with me right now so can someone let me know the answer to this because I just had a weird thought - if I embark a KFF Mek into a vehicle does it get the 5++ in melee too? Not sure if the rules are written a little vague there. Very expensive but might be an interesting tactic to give us some durability in combat. And the heals too, hmmm.

 Jidmah wrote:

So what's your thoughts on bringing two KBB?

Eh, my army is Blood Axes which basically translates to "Sorry, you have no kulture. Wanna trade a relic for a warlord trait?". Picking best kultures for detachments is the least of my worries
If anything, I'll start to paint all my new models blue and switch to deff skulls, just so I have a reason to run my trukkboyz again.

2 KBBs are OK but it depends on the make up of the rest of your list really. Do you need the chaff clear? Their MWs on charges can be clutch but often isn’t really much to get excited about. Lol the clan comment wasn’t at you specifically Jid, just a general statement really. Give your boys whatever kultur you like man. Though the relic is one of the best.

One of the main reasons I want to invest into some speedy stuff is to get rid of as many boyz from my list as possible. I really hate moving those droves of models since the placement for every single one matters when you reach combat, it just makes my games much less enjoyable. For competitive games I'm running Death Guard anyways, so fun and fluffy is exactly what I'm looking for - I'll be facing wraith armies, imperial fists or tzeench daemons with them, not Castellans or Eldar soup.

Yea I totally get that. I can’t stand the green tide play style. It also feels more like I’m in control of a game when 60% of my units are on the enemy turn 1, even though that probably isn’t true. I’ve had opponents concede way too early because the early game felt too brutal for them but if they had hit back they’d have probably seen my army fold and won.

Thanks you both for your feedback. One last question: How do you feel about adding a Morkanaut to the list? You both seem to be running the dread detachment for the super-SAG anyways so it would have access to shoot twice stratagem without extra cost.

No worries. Originally I planned to have a Mork in there to double shoot but the output compared to 2 Wazboms is not much higher at all, its one less KFF in the list, it has way worse mobility to shoot those high value targets and it relies on a stratagem for decent damage output which I didn’t like.

I feel we need to move away from our reliance on stratagems that can be countered in our list building now. For me I’m going to try to lean on them as little as possible or, at least, to try and use the less expensive ones so players are gutted ‘wasting’ a Vect/A Plan on them. A plan really worries me, 3CP is super cheap and often it only needs to be used once per game to completely cripple our army.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I agreee with all of this. Really disappointed your ‘how to fix Orks?’ thread never went anywhere. I guess we are a secondary or tertiary faction for many.

It's a shame more people didn't really chime in but I still implore people to actually write to GW. Voice your concerns and ideas, especially now when we're like a month away from the FAQ. This is the last chance for a while, so shoot an email and give some insight (politely). Some people argue it'll do nothing and that might be true (although I doubt it) but what's the risk?

PiñaColada wrote:

Spoiler:

I've had pretty decent success with the dakkajet, even though I run them suboptimally (as evil sunz) like you. With "long, uncontrolled bursts" I've wiped squads of inceptors several times as they're fly but not hard to hit. Those guys are also a terror for normal boyz so having a platform that wipes them quick is nice, although obviously there are plenty of other options in the codex to do that. Usually I just use the DJ to wipe my opponents second line of chaff though, since the first is going to get chomped in CC (Gork willing).

My nobz generally die quick when they are out of their transport but if my opponent blows it up then at least they have a 3+ save (with loot it) so they're somewhat surviveable. But usually I run them into a bunch of things and swamp my opponent with attacks, my loadout (5BC+C, 2PS+C &3C+C) is pretty cheap and if they're warpathed I've found them effective against anything that isn't T8. That T8 is the issue though, that's why I want to make MANZ work. I think they're too expensive, but that's mostly due to the weapons not so much the base cost of the model. I think it's a real shame they can't take an ammo runt per 3 MANZ so you can put them in transports without worrying as much. I run mine as dual killsaws which makes them pretty killy in CC but for 43 frickin' points each they are too easy to kill or ignore. T8 in general is just tough to deal with as Orks, sure we can throw in an HQ to deal with it but usually that's a suicide mission. There aren't too many other CC options and basically no shooting will hurt it on 3+. The bonebreaka is good, as long as we're not talking about IK (meaning they can hit back) since they hit oh-so-hard when undegraded. But boy do they degrade, and die

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yea no doubt the DJ has its place depending on your meta. For me though I have enough other units in my list that can do it’s iob well enough, with the bikes and buggies that usually focus on the second layer of screen in their shooting phase.
I wonder if Bonebreakers might be our most viable T8 killing unit. Particularly in a mech/biker list. They are only slightly over costed and relatively tough if covered by a KFF plus they can be filled with Boyz to give them protection. I don’t have my codex with me right now so can someone let me know the answer to this because I just had a weird thought - if I embark a KFF Mek into a vehicle does it get the 5++ in melee too? Not sure if the rules are written a little vague there. Very expensive but might be an interesting tactic to give us some durability in combat. And the heals too, hmmm.

Unfortunately they don't gain a 5++ in CC, it's still just versus ranged weapons. But yeah, the bonebreakas are great against anything that can't hit back hard in CC. The problem is that they're so easy to avoid by jumping up in ruins or hiding behind something that's tough to get around.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I feel we need to move away from our reliance on stratagems that can be countered in our list building now. For me I’m going to try to lean on them as little as possible or, at least, to try and use the less expensive ones so players are gutted ‘wasting’ a Vect/A Plan on them. A plan really worries me, 3CP is super cheap and often it only needs to be used once per game to completely cripple our army.

I thought "A plan generations in the making" is once per game? Someone told me that, I haven't looked it up though..
Edit: It is once per game per the FAQ. That's still often enough to cripple an army by removing a vital trick so I still agree that relying on stratagems too much probably isn't the way forward but at least tyranid soup can't keep "vecting" you all day long

Tried loota bomb and a relik sag mek in a 2250 game vs necrons with 4 doomsday arks, immortals, some wraiths and destroyers

Loota bomb was quite good. Wrecked an ark and a bunch of wraiths first turn. Second turn was a bit less impressive cause enemy saves were super hot but 3d turn they wrecked 2 more arks. Basically, made the game.

Relik sag mek didn't feel to be worth it vs crons. Was not worth using vs arks, wraiths had 3++ and all he did in the first 2 turns was kill a couple immortals. Even used vigilus 2cp shoot again strat and killed...1 extra immortal for 2 cp. 3d turn he killed 2 destroyers though. Anywayz, i'm not sure he's worth the hassle. 2 cp to simply get this sag...and than random str. Ap5 is nice but no invul on something worth shooting is sooooo rare. What is he supposed to shoot down? Leman russes? Yeah, now let's roll high enough str and bnumber of shots to get those wounds in. I'd rather spend this oh so needed cp elsewhere.

Also finally tried 3 deepstriking deffdreads. Was also a bit underwhelmed. It's so hard to find a plsce to deepstrike them. Also, mellee vehicles with bases don't really work all that amazing with terrain features. No shooting at all. 3 chances to charge with 1 deepatrike though. All in all, 10 meganobz tend to work better for me. They also have 40 shots which is nice.

 koooaei wrote:
Tried loota bomb and a relik sag mek in a 2250 game vs necrons with 4 doomsday arks, immortals, some wraiths and destroyers

Loota bomb was quite good. Wrecked an ark and a bunch of wraiths first turn. Second turn was a bit less impressive cause enemy saves were super hot but 3d turn they wrecked 2 more arks. Basically, made the game.

Relik sag mek didn't feel to be worth it vs crons. Was not worth using vs arks, wraiths had 3++ and all he did in the first 2 turns was kill a couple immortals. Even used vigilus 2cp shoot again strat and killed...1 extra immortal for 2 cp. 3d turn he killed 2 destroyers though. Anywayz, i'm not sure he's worth the hassle. 2 cp to simply get this sag...and than random str. Ap5 is nice but no invul on something worth shooting is sooooo rare. What is he supposed to shoot down? Leman russes? Yeah, now let's roll high enough str and bnumber of shots to get those wounds in. I'd rather spend this oh so needed cp elsewhere.

Also finally tried 3 deepstriking deffdreads. Was also a bit underwhelmed. It's so hard to find a plsce to deepstrike them. Also, mellee vehicles with bases don't really work all that amazing with terrain features. No shooting at all. 3 chances to charge with 1 deepatrike though. All in all, 10 meganobz tend to work better for me. They also have 40 shots which is nice.

The ideal number for a deff dread deep strike is 2 (assuming what you were saying it was one unit). Three is too unwieldy and cumbersome I've found, and their combined footprint often means you only really have 2 deff dreadz in optimal charge placement anyways.

I feel like a deep striking gorkanaut might be better tbh, its more cost efficient CP wise regarding ramming speed and he has the weight of attacks and decent shooting to actually do something in combat when he gets there and can shoot up something if he doesn't.

I'll try to proxy the naught some time but stll feel that 10 meganobz would be better. For almost the same points. Meganobz are what I can suggest for every ork list tbh. They are simply good. Even if they fail a charge, they have a bit of shooting to thin down bauble wrap or some key infantry units. And the staying power is somewhat higher than that of a naught. And meganobz in cover are hard to chew through even for plasma. Means if you get a squad somewhere, they'll be useful for ground control even if the enemy is already not there.