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 Vineheart01 wrote:
i pretty much can never justify a trukk. I really wish it either had Spiked Ram (which its MODELED WITH) or the wrecking ball wasnt a single attack.
I love that the battlewagons are a threat in their own right. Now a trukk shouldnt be at the same level of deadly but atleast capable of hurting something other than grots would be nice.
Since you cant launch the occupants anymore i dont see a point in them.

Yeah, unfortunately it's relegated to being a relatively inferior mobile gunboat for tankbustas and deffskull boyz. I think the lack of options from transitioning over to the new edition has really hurt its viability, since resilience was never a thing that trukks were bought for. It was cheapness and since GW is adamant in keeping transport costs up, it has the main issue of not having enough damage output shooting wise to play a role once its cargo has been deployed, nor enough cargo space to carry anything meaningful besides 1 or 2 units. If anything, they should make their CC stats closer to the speed freeks vehicles they've released recently, hitting on 4's in CC with the wrecking ball or spiked ram as their mode of damage.

Also, I think you're referring to the grabbin klaw rather than the wreckin ball? the Wreckin ball at least gives you 3 attacks, its the grabbin klaw that forces you to only have one attack with it.

Trukks aren't that great, for sure. But they're under half the cost of the BB and BW, which allows you to field more things. I think whether or not you'll find a use for it will depend on the kind of list you're building.

Ah, yeah i got the two mixed up.
Still, only hits on 5s with 3 attacks. I guess it technically hits hard since it makes it S8 AP-1 2D (assuming it isnt degraded of course).

Its the one thing i love about the battlewagon atm. Even the nonbonebreaka still can deliver a punch on its own merit. One thing im slowly working towards is getting all 5 of my wagons built and trying to use them all lol (3wagons 2 bonebreakas)

 Grimskul wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Boyz benefit most from being in groups of 30. 1 Boss Nob, 19xChoppas, and 10xShootas in pretty optimal. If you take MSUs with Boyz, you're just giving away an extra attack. If you're playing Goffs, consider spending the 1 CP per Blob to make them Skarboys.

Didn’t realise they could mix and match weapons in the squad?

Yup, unlike previous editions, you can choose what gear each boy has, which is useful for giving them a little more flexibility in big mobs, since you're not likely to have all 30 survive and be in range for combat in most cases so having some shootas in the back gives you more options.

Also, regarding Skarboyz, I think it depends on your local meta, since S5 is at an important strength threshold in being able to wound T8 models on 5's. If you're against mainly Aeldari where T3 means you don't really get a benefit and at best you're getting to wound their venoms/skyweavers on 4's, then yeah it's not worth it. Against T4 armies I think wounding on 3's is ultimately worth it, which is mainly MEQ's. GEQ's with access to T8 like Guardsmen is another niche example where they can pay for their points.

Against many t4 armies though s4 is still aplenty. 30 will one shot 10 tactical marines/5 primaris and generally marines play msu...seen much 10 strong primaris squads?

I can understand why trukks are problematic. In my area the shop tables are 4’ x 4’, which means if you try and use trukks to concentrate on one end of the opponents’ line, they can still shoot the things from the other end of the table given the weapon ranges. Blocking terrain can mitigate to some extent, but my experience is they are useful as mobile bunkers and prospective ‘loot it’ sources rather than for tactical mobility.

 flandarz wrote:
Trukks aren't that great, for sure. But they're under half the cost of the BB and BW, which allows you to field more things. I think whether or not you'll find a use for it will depend on the kind of list you're building.

I like MSU Flash gitz and Tanksbustas in Trukks a lot. They work for me. Altough at the moment I prefer the Chinork for the busta's since it makes them so incredible fast.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think a Trukk full of Nobz or Flash Gits is possibly worth considering. They can at least loot the thing when it explodes and it offers a pretense of protection from small arms fire. Where Da Jump exists and under the current disembarking rules transports don't really serve a purpose, unfortunately. Like most of our units they are between 15% and 25% overpriced.

Skarboyz are too CP hungry and offer too little to be worthwhile, as already mentioned.

With regards Boyz numbers, I think the optimum number is 2 x 30 and 2 x 10. Mob up and 40 jumping in turn 1 and 2 is no joke. I cut the second batch of 10 personally but it's a preference thing.

while it is not going to win you tournaments I highly recommend doing this to a friend at least once. I usually pull it out of my back pocket if I have not yet played somebody with my orks yet (though probably would not do it against a new player or stranger) the look on thier face as you mob up then cast the jump then the realization that those 40 boys put on the back field are now an immediate problem is priceless.

on the trukk vs battlewagon debate... has anybody had a trukk survive past turn 2 this edition ... show of hands *looks around the classroom*

personally I own 4 trukks and several looted wagons for counts as trukks, they just get wiped off the table vs everything i play against. though to be fair in my meta there are several knights players and most people use take all comers lists, so vs trukk spam they have plenty of anti tank. in battlewagosn with trukks they usually still get tyargeted first because they have the good stuff like tank bustas or meganobz

 G00fySmiley wrote:
while it is not going to win you tournaments I highly recommend doing this to a friend at least once. I usually pull it out of my back pocket if I have not yet played somebody with my orks yet (though probably would not do it against a new player or stranger) the look on thier face as you mob up then cast the jump then the realization that those 40 boys put on the back field are now an immediate problem is priceless.

I have done that. Several times. Generally they shrug, take off the chaff as casualties and then blow the 40 strong unit to either dead or crippled. It's actually the 30 strong unit that worries more. 13 orks left from 40 isn't that much of a worry anymore. 3 left from 30 have this possibility of becoming 30 right away.

And waiting for turn 2-3 with your 40 orks sitting at backfield is a) lots of points not used b) vulnerable for shooting.

on the trukk vs battlewagon debate... has anybody had a trukk survive past turn 2 this edition ... show of hands *looks around the classroom*

Depends if they get to unload the unit in time. If yes sometimes yes mostly on the principle they are too insignificant to shoot before say mek gun.

My trukk with tankabusta always survive at. Least 3T. I guess is because of Target saturation.

tneva82 wrote:

on the trukk vs battlewagon debate... has anybody had a trukk survive past turn 2 this edition ... show of hands *looks around the classroom*

Depends if they get to unload the unit in time. If yes sometimes yes mostly on the principle they are too insignificant to shoot before say mek gun.

Same here. Trukk has boyz or empty? It will live for the whole game. If there is anything valuable inside it will die.

trukk with generic boyz inside would actually be wonderful to get shot at that early.

Also depends on what else you have. If you pretty much have nothing other than footboyz jumping around and mek gunz support, anything that isnt beyond 24" reach is going to pummel that trukk hard because why would they shoot plasma at a boy if they got a trukk to shoot at?

Trukk shouldnt die in 1 turn unless you stuff it with tankbustas/manz. Its pretty hard for orks to not field something T6+ with a lot of wounds right now, and the trukk is easily the weakest of that kind of unit.

Kinda wonder if trukkboyz would be viable if we could take up to 3 heavy weapons per unit of boyz, not 1 heavy per 10 boyz. 10 boyz w/ 3 rokkits in a trukk would be dope.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think a Trukk full of Nobz or Flash Gits is possibly worth considering. They can at least loot the thing when it explodes and it offers a pretense of protection from small arms fire. Where Da Jump exists and under the current disembarking rules transports don't really serve a purpose, unfortunately. Like most of our units they are between 15% and 25% overpriced.

Skarboyz are too CP hungry and offer too little to be worthwhile, as already mentioned.

With regards Boyz numbers, I think the optimum number is 2 x 30 and 2 x 10. Mob up and 40 jumping in turn 1 and 2 is no joke. I cut the second batch of 10 personally but it's a preference thing.

while it is not going to win you tournaments I highly recommend doing this to a friend at least once. I usually pull it out of my back pocket if I have not yet played somebody with my orks yet (though probably would not do it against a new player or stranger) the look on thier face as you mob up then cast the jump then the realization that those 40 boys put on the back field are now an immediate problem is priceless.

on the trukk vs battlewagon debate... has anybody had a trukk survive past turn 2 this edition ... show of hands *looks around the classroom*

personally I own 4 trukks and several looted wagons for counts as trukks, they just get wiped off the table vs everything i play against. though to be fair in my meta there are several knights players and most people use take all comers lists, so vs trukk spam they have plenty of anti tank. in battlewagosn with trukks they usually still get tyargeted first because they have the good stuff like tank bustas or meganobz

I have, against a nid player. I lined it up right next to 60 boys and in front of his gaunts with guns. They had to choose to shoot it or the boys. Guess which he chose?

tneva82 wrote:

I have done that. Several times. Generally they shrug, take off the chaff as casualties and then blow the 40 strong unit to either dead or crippled. It's actually the 30 strong unit that worries more. 13 orks left from 40 isn't that much of a worry anymore. 3 left from 30 have this possibility of becoming 30 right away.

And waiting for turn 2-3 with your 40 orks sitting at backfield is a) lots of points not used b) vulnerable for shooting.

Why are you waiting to turn 2 or 3? They are Da Jumped up.

The thing with green tide is that it can only be used once per game so there is redundancy. 40 Boyz is better than 30, they take longer to degrade in terms of attacks and they hit harder. They also benefit better from Loot it and fight twice stratagems. They can also cover more board and grab more units in cc. Probably one of their best benefits is that they are a cheaper way of filling battalions, rather than taking 28-30 every time.

Trucks are good for soaking overwatch maybe perhaps possibly?

If you've ever faced deathwatch and their anti-charge ork stratagem then a trukk comes in real handy to soak up overwatch. Obviously anything that's a single model and somehwat durable will do, but them degrading a trukk is insignificant.

Other than that, and a niche case when you can MW a wounded character to death with ramming speed, trukks are not doing so hot IMO. Trukkbustas are alright, same with nobz but if I know that I'm facing tougher lists then the trukk stays home more often than not.

Another week, another game. I'm rolling. This time was against new player(this was either his 2nd game of 8th ed or 2nd game 40k period) with iron hands this time(first game he was trying raven guard. He's trying out different traits). We had agreed on casual lists 1500 pts. Hopefully I had casual enough! Though as it turns out my list was pretty much meaningless...

Death skull battalion. SAG, weirdboy, 30 boyz, 13 grots, 10 grots, 10 tank bustas, shokjump dragsta. Goff battallion, warboss w/killa klaw, weirdboy, 30 skarboyz, 2x10 grots, 5 meganobz(2 killa saw dudes, 2 combi flamers). traktor kannon, KMK, smasha gun.

He had 2 lietnaunts, captain, 3x5 basic primaris marines, 8 plasma primaris, 3 jump pack assault heavy bolter marines, 2 primaris dreadnought(one of both types), regular dreadnought, predator.

We played same scenario I got last time so select 2 objectives, get 2 for each you score. I deployed and went first. I put just meganobs to deep strike to even it out further especially when I went first.

Ork T1: Tank bustas were jumped forward to reach plasma primaris dreadnought. Wrecker used but was wasted strategem as I rolled so good(only 1 to wound failed and that would have been rerolled by being deathskull anyway) that the dreadnought blew right away. This left shockjump reach only primaris marine that was front of plasma guys(that were behind ruins) ensuring no T1 da jump charge vs plasma guys as I had suggested him do. Forgot SAG, mek guns caused some wounds but not much.

Marine 1: Plasma guys moved to ruins and blew out tankbustas. He concentrated fire toward goffs(whose warboss I had forgotten to move btw) and stopped when he had done either 12 or 14 dead following tip I had given him pre-game. Spare player/overall organizer had warned him to finish off units to ensure they don't come back. I pointed out if they are over half strenght I can't do that so if he can't finish stop shooting around 16-19 left(which also drops attacks). Well that's precisely what he did. And also took out KMK.

Ork 2. Meganobz deep striked behind lines, charged and killed gatling primaris dreadnought that had been softened by shooting. Weirdboy da jumped deathskull boys to my right to help goffs. This left plasma guys safe but a) I figured I didn't need to kill them neccessary and just win on objectives b) this gave him more of fighting chance anyway. In shooting I put predator into 2nd bracket and hurt the primaris dreadnought before it died(to exact wounds) vs meganobs. Shokkjump charged vs basic squad figuring if I'm out of combat I get shot down and let's get 10 S4 -1 shots out of action.

Marine 2: Basically game ended here. Literally. He got soooooo crappy cards unbelievable. Domination. Nope. Impossible in effect. Defend objectives deep in my side? Yep not happening. I said him "ah you didn't discard full 6 right before game? Redraw domination". No help. I even came up house rule on the spot that he can always discard one at the end of turn and get new one. This didn't help turns 2 and 3 so basically he was totally vp locked here...I could have basically just sit my units at the center and say "pass turn" and automatically win...

So this came lesson for teaching him capabilities of our respective armies as game was 100% won. I would need to actively try to give him win to lose this game...

He brought in deep strikers hamstrung with my chaff around. He took out entire goff mob this time. Bit scary at the end when he was contemplating what to do with plasma guys and split 3 into last nob. Only got 1 hit so needing 2+ with reroll to kill he rolled 1 but didn't fail reroll. That would have been big...Survive and that's 30 goffs back on field.

Rest of plasma's, predator and dreadnought shot 4 of meganobz.

Ork 3: Should have retreated with shokkump as more targets arrived for plasmas. Specifically warlord was da jumped and charged regular dread, killed and tagged predator in combat. Meganob with 1 wound left charged and killed lietnaunt(if I had been evil I would have charged lietnaunt as well as the 3 jump pack dudes with deathskulls first to prevent lucky overrwatch killing last wound meganob but hey with game won already was feeling gracious). Jump packers were charged and killed by deathskulls. Didn't even consolidiate into the basic marines.

Marine 3: He blew out warlord with plasma marines. He only got few into range due to shokkjump being closer for rest but it was enough. Rest blew out the shokkjump no problemo.

Rest of game. I had been scoring 4-5 cards per turn so was racking up tons of points and would have ran out of tactical cards before game had I not on turn 5 ran into total lockage as shooting was reduced(especially as I always forgot SAG) and couldn't finish warlord either nor predator out of sight. He got finally "charge enemy units" and "cause wound to character with character" cards that I had basically donated to him just trying to kill something for fun even if it means sure death for my weirdboys. In the end I won 18-7(having 2 minus points for having 8 cards at hand) when we called it. Without my imprompt house rule it would have been 18-4(2 for first 2 cards, first strike, slay the warlord).

This was basically decided by scenario and his turn 2 draws. I think I ask in future if my house rule is okay. Total freezage is annoying if it happens.

Has anyone here considered the possibility of a max grot list?
From spitballing I could fit in 2000 points the following
3x wierdboy
2x warboss (1 relic klaw 1 relic choppa)
12x smasha gunz
25x lootas
275x grots.

comes out to 11-13 CP depending on wierdboy upgrades

Bit of one trick pony And not many have that many grots ;-) You would also be losing tons of grots to morale without runtherds to go around.

You have major issue with any AT firepower having easy time choosing targets. Smasha guns, smasha guns, smasha guns.

Fitting all those could be problematic...Especially in some terrains.

And heaven forbid if you run into army that can grind through those lootas. I have lost 60 grots and 15 lootas in one turn. Grot shield or not.

And with that much to cram into DZ 3 pointers are going to play havoc with you giving opponent units in close combat you can't fall back. How you plan to deal with those? Warbosses are only credible h2h threat you have...

Fun idea but won't be super competive. Too many lists that can hard counter almost by accident.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I got also game agreed for next week. Another newbie(today was his first game of 8th ed though he has played older editions). He has blood angels. I want to try another not super optimized lists so starter rule no evil sun+bad moon loota star combo.

So 2 battallions again, evil suns and deathskulls this time.

Evil suns:
warboss w/da killa klaw and butal but kunning
wartrike

10 nobs(power klaw, 4 big choppas and then max amount of choppas)
nob W/banner

30xboyz(big choppa)
2x10 grots
bonebreaker

Deathskull:

SAG
da jump weirdboy

2x30 boyz(klaw and big choppa)
2x10 grots

10 tank busta
10 loota
shokkjump dragsta

So it has lootas but only 10 so not really loota star list. And deathskull so no twice firing. 3 units of boyz to rush into close combat, bonebreaker loaded with nobs looking at T1 combat if possible.

Hopefully not too nasty. Looking to try that bonebreaka & contents again plus shokkjump. This time it was bit of neutral. First turn main target died before it was needed and then had range issues and rest of game before dying spent tagging marine squad from shooting.

Booger ork wrote:
Has anyone here considered the possibility of a max grot list?

Yes, it comes up about twice a month.
1) No one is willing to buy/build/paint that many gretchin for a gimmik. Well, almost no one.
2) For those few who actually pulled off gretchin tides report them as notorious unfun to play (and play against) or in other words "was fun to see, will not do it again".
3) The list doesn't actually do anything. While grot shield is an effective protection against shooting, there are only so many gretchin you can have within 6", plus you still lose a loota on every sixth wound. In addition to that, it doesn't protect you from mortal wounds, so psychic powers or anything that does mortal wounds on wound rolls like snipers will kill off parts of your loota star. Considering that the only other dangerous thing in your army are smasha gunz, 2000 points of shooting will be dedicated solely at them. With that one threat gone, all you have left are units which are neither good at killing stuff nor survivable - meaning you will most likely lose the mission.

 Jidmah wrote:

Booger ork wrote:
Has anyone here considered the possibility of a max grot list?

Yes, it comes up about twice a month.
1) No one is willing to buy/build/paint that many gretchin for a gimmik. Well, almost no one.
2) For those few who actually pulled off gretchin tides report them as notorious unfun to play (and play against) or in other words "was fun to see, will not do it again".
3) The list doesn't actually do anything. While grot shield is an effective protection against shooting, there are only so many gretchin you can have within 6", plus you still lose a loota on every sixth wound. In addition to that, it doesn't protect you from mortal wounds, so psychic powers or anything that does mortal wounds on wound rolls like snipers will kill off parts of your loota star. Considering that the only other dangerous thing in your army are smasha gunz, 2000 points of shooting will be dedicated solely at them. With that one threat gone, all you have left are units which are neither good at killing stuff nor survivable - meaning you will most likely lose the mission.

Pretty much this.

If there was actual variety in grot units beyond our basic troops and mek gunz (i.e. a rebel grot leader, grot snipers, saboteurs....) there maybe some actual tactics that could be discussed beyond just spamming the same two units over and over. That or if Killa Kanz were usable competitively speaking.

It's a pity GW doesn't seem to appreciate the role grotz could play in an Ork army considering their cousins over in AoS with Gloomspite Gitz have so much flavour and options. Alas, they're relegated as bullet sponges and CP batteries in 40k for the time being.

Also, I've been seeing how Goffs work out list wise, does Ghazzy have a place in a list with them? Besides matching with their kultur, he does give them an attack boost and he's survivable as far as our HQ's go. The only problem being he's slightly overcosted, and competition wise he doesn't outdo the Killa Klaw Boss as far as efficiency goes. Would it be worth it to include him but not make him the Warlord? Has anyone tried using him?

Trukkz are our cheapest transport option (though the Chinork is only slightly more expensive). It certainly can't compete with the BB or BW, but in certain lists, it can definitely have a home. With Deathskullz or Snakebitez, or with a KFF Mek inside, it has a decent chance of getting your Gitz or TBs into range. Especially since you'll have more points to spend on additional threats.

I like Ghaz. If you're rolling a mono Goff, there's probably no reason not to include him. If you're souping, though, you probably don't have the points to spare on him, unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Grots, what'd be real nice is a Strat to allow Grots to benefit from Kultur. 3 CP, spent pre-deployment. "Grot Units within this Detachment benefit from Kultur." That'd make every single Grot unit much more viable and useful.

I think Ghaz is slightly overcosted, but definitely playable. The only real drawback is that your liat is built around him, which makes it obvious to your opponent that you are going to go up the board and try and punch him to death.

I tend to run all shootas now. With how problematic it gets to charge in behind screens or to even charge at all, some extra shooting goes a long way.

yeah i pretty much dont run choppa boyz anymore. Da Jumping full shoota squads has been scaring a lot of my local players, and long as theyre 20+ theyre still a threat in melee (or warpath)

I kinda want to try da jumping a mobbed up 20 nobs. Maybe keep them in the back the first 1-2 turns to see if they can proc loot it from a mek gun or something. Basically 20 primaris marines with 6 S5 attacks each if you cast warpath would be pretty intimidating.

yeah every once in awhile i get a wild idea like that i never actually do either because i lack the models or it feels like it should no way in hell work the way i think it will lol

I just found a way to have 6 trukks and 2 bonebreakas with a wartrike in the same 2k list and now i really wanna try that even though i dont have 6 trukks and its probably gonna fail hardcore anyway lol

I'm considering making a Freebootas List with like 3 Trukks full of Flash Gitz, a Boy Mob or two, and a bunch of Smashas and Traktors. It'll probably suck.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I kinda want to try da jumping a mobbed up 20 nobs. Maybe keep them in the back the first 1-2 turns to see if they can proc loot it from a mek gun or something. Basically 20 primaris marines with 6 S5 attacks each if you cast warpath would be pretty intimidating.

Congratulation, you manage to make Blood Angel Reavers

Sadly, 20 primaris marines are basically the opposite of something good, so it's not a goal you should be pursuing.

If you like nobz, put them in battlewagons or bonebreakers and drive them into your enemy line. They will get there just as fast as when jumping them, and a charge is much more likely should they survive.

So a few varied lists have done relatively well recently.

One list had no Boyz at all - only Grots for troops. The player took a LOT of them too. Shows how good Boyz are I suppose :-D I think the same player took 20 Meganobz too.

We've mentioned Ben Jurek's Freeboota list already.

There were a few lists taking multiple Gork and Morkanauts.

More than one list didn't take any Lootas, which I'm not surprised at.

One thing I thought was particularly innovative was taking 10 Nobz with a Kustom Shoota and Kombi Rokkit on each. It pushes their cost up 14ppm but they can be used as pseudo Tankbustas with a nice bit of anti infantry dakka. Apparently index shenanigans allow it.

I'll do more digging but I think it's time to innovate Boyz.

E - Flash Gits were also taken in decent numbers and outside of Freebootas.

I have been looking hard at flashgitz, what has been holding me back is that they are not as point efficient as lootas. I think they would be truly competitive if GW shaved 2-3 ppm off the cost.

Thanks for the info.

I also have tried a list without boyz that went well, and was wondering if I was crazy not taking boyz. It's good to know I'm not alone.

I still feel like I face -1 to hit armies too often to really use flash gitz to their fullest extent. But then again, I only own 5 so figuring out what the other slots in the trukk are filled out with has always been a challenge.

I might pick up some more in the near future, especially now that we know that the Ork Kill Team Elite box has flash gitz in it. Depending on what terrain comes in that box I might just pull the trigger on one of those. Would have to convert the second kaptin though, can't have duplicates