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translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)

Honestly, a 1/12 chance to one-shot a Knight isn't bad at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)

True. Difference isn't going to be huge. Next Q of course would be standard deviations but that's beyond me(not even idea how to do that!).

I feel bad for any bad moon fan who had slugga+choppa boyz. Those got screwed there.


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 flandarz wrote:
Honestly, a 1/12 chance to one-shot a Knight isn't bad at all.

Certainly % opponent has to take into consideration. 1/12 times 5++ knight getting nuked isn't that bad at all. And even when not it averages to hefty damage.

Yeah. I would have expected Deathskullz to get a -1 to hit Strategem or something, and for Badmoonz to get the 6++, but *shrug*.

iirc Blue is Lucky was a thing in the past where it gave a 6++, like way in the past.

Thus their invul is literally a "lucky dat missed!" basically lol

None of my slugga/choppa boyz were painted fortunately but i had a handful of MANz/bigchoppa nobz that were. That bugged me mildly.

I don't feel that 1/12 is the correct stats, but regardless, what's the chances of a 4++ or a 3++ getting one shot?

I saw someone else do them in another thread (think it was Scotsman) and it came out in the millions.

Hard to believe on millions. 2d6 shots, 2d6 S with +1 to wound, d6 damage, potential for d3 mortal wounds...Hard to see how I could make that big mistake but around 2%

Generally one shots happened with 10+ S11+ shots.

T7 vs T8 was surprisingly small difference. Less surprisingly bump to average output wasn't that big when rerolling 1-3 vs 1-2. Average damage goes up but not much. Bigger jump goes from rerolling just 1's to rerolling 1's and 2's for damage so that would be sweet spot without extra considerations.

BTW! In case of damage rolls are you supposed to roll damage one at a time and decide whether to reroll or not then? That would a) be slower b) less effective than say roll your 4d6 damage and decide reroll after that.

I also think millions is too high, considering there's a 1/324 chance of getting 11+ shots with 11+ strength, which (before you even have to worry about Wounding or Saves) is an average of 6ish MWs.

Edit: forgot to account for BS. And bad math.

I have no idea what the odds would end up being, but assuming that you're firing at an IK with a 3++ and the IK player rerolls a failed save, I'm guessing it's pretty damn unlikely.

However, you can still fire twice and even though you might be burning CP on this move you should still have 1900 points left in your army that hopefully starts chipping in

Edit: And if you're getting a ton of MW through then the IK player will most likely play "Benevolence of the machine god" for that 5+ FnP against them

Anyway think I'll be fielding this SAG fellow bit more Yesterday's results certainly were over the average so nice to see in practice how much it in practice does. Does seem still bit of go big or go home weapon though relic + warlord trait makes it bit less of a black and white model.

Quick check on W12 model, T7 no invulnerable save and one shotting about half the time with average 8 wounds(modified a bit so if it causes more than 12 I put damage at 12 to keep average damage not go up)

T8 on that makes surprisingly little effect O_o Well +1 to wound probably evens that and there's not that many results where to wound affects.

This might be for a change tool that can actually worry repulsor. I always struggle that one. Very tough to shoot and -2 to charge just sucks making da killa klaw boss less efficient. Hard to reach close on foot and da jump requires that 10"+ for charge.


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PiñaColada wrote:
I have no idea what the odds would end up being, but assuming that you're firing at an IK with a 3++ and the IK player rerolls a failed save, I'm guessing it's pretty damn unlikely.

However, you can still fire twice and even though you might be burning CP on this move you should still have 1900 points left in your army that hopefully starts chipping in

Edit: And if you're getting a ton of MW through then the IK player will most likely play "Benevolence of the machine god" for that 5+ FnP against them

True that strategem I didn't take into account so that affects things certainly. Forgot that one as I have never used it so forgot there is one. I'll add that part later to it. Of course that 3++ isn't going to be quarantee either. I would not be starting with this one generally so if he triggers RIS against previous guns I can easily switch to some 5++ target instead(take that) or if not I'll be shooting at damaged which helps a bit to compensate for inv save.

One reroll for knights also needs to be added. Though keep in mind those one shots are generally when the SAG scores big pile of hits so multiple failures will happen. But yeah another improvement needed certainly.

Yeah, I would back him with some Smashaz. Use the Smashaz first, and wait to see who he drops the RIS on. Plus: your SAG can repair any Smashaz that don't get destroyed and/or Loot them to improve it's own Save.

tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.

It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.

I'm looking at it from another perspective. Deffskullz make your mediocre rolls play out better in the end. While bad moons make sure when you get 10+ shots, they will be more devastating. And enemies will remember those times you one-shot a repulsor or brought a knight down to 10 wounds in one go. And it will affect the way they play vs sag mek.

I think, the utility of a 84 pts boogeyman is higher than that of a more reliable, yet less memorable one.

Though, it still mostly depends on the rest of the list. If you're running loota bomb alongside your sag mek, it's got to be bad moonz. If you're running msu stuff in trukks, deffskullz it is.

 koooaei wrote:

I'm looking at it from another perspective. Deffskullz make your mediocre rolls play out better in the end. While bad moons make sure when you get 10+ shots, they will be more devastating. And enemies will remember those times you one-shot a repulsor or brought a knight down to 10 wounds in one go. And it will affect the way they play vs sag mek.

I think, the utility of a 84 pts boogeyman is higher than that of a more reliable, yet less memorable one.

Though, it still mostly depends on the rest of the list. If you're running loota bomb alongside your sag mek, it's got to be bad moonz. If you're running msu stuff in trukks, deffskullz it is.

Well. Is one shotting 24 wound knight with 5+ and 5+ FNP vs mortals devastating? If so unless there's serious error looks like deathskull does that for lot more often bad moon.

Against 3++ 5+++ vs mortal castellan both are about same though at 0.6% chance of one shotting. But regular knight, FNP vs mortal or not, deathskull is one shotting significantly more. Average damage also better. 7.7 vs 6.2 or more than 16% difference.

So if you want to be scaring opponent by one shotting knights take the death skull SAG.


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BTW on another note all indexes except for imperium 2(with sisters of silence etc that need it for rules) are now out of sale. No big deal except tournaments might start banning index in future as players can't even buy those any more.

Yea be aware that GW is no longer selling indexes in any country apart from the UK.

If the indexes are banned (they aren't yet) I guess we'll all need to seriously consider our strategy?

No more kills klaw bike bosses or off big meks.

Yeah, will have to go for foot boss, i guess. Not nearly as good as biker boss but whelp. Boss is no longer the star. Sag mek is. Who could have thought...

If the index options are phased out soon (I personally think that's going to happen in CA2019) Orks might start to have an HQ problem for a lot of people. I'm not really affected by that myself but the biggest thing I'm annoyed by is the lack of kustom shootas on nobz. What is the nob in a shoota boy squad supposed to take? Kombi-weapons? Slugga+big choppa? Both are fine options but the obvious choice IMO is the kustom shoota.

Unrelated to my kustom shoota complaint, I'm sort of hoping we get a new character in a KT expansion, like the manipulus for Admech. Those can seemingly come out of nowhere and if Index goes in the near future our HQ selection is actually pretty sparse (though to be fair, nowhere near as bad as Admech was/still is)

tneva82 wrote:
Against 3++ 5+++ vs mortal castellan both are about same though at 0.6% chance of one shotting. But regular knight, FNP vs mortal or not, deathskull is one shotting significantly more. Average damage also better. 7.7 vs 6.2 or more than 16% difference.

So if you want to be scaring opponent by one shotting knights take the death skull SAG.

That's not counting on the player rerolling 1 failed armor save, or is it? I just have a morbid curiousity as to what the odds are in the worst case scenario Assuming you haven't moved of course, because then you might employ more dakka to counteract that.

If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.

I never understood, why they cancelled the old BigMek with KFF. It was one of the most characterfull miniatures in the ork line and provided us with a cheap but usefull HQ.

If they start banning index-units, I think our last hope is a Killteam-Character release, like PinaColada suggested.

Jidmah wrote:If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.

I doubt they will be gone in 8th edition, but when we move to 9th I do not expect them to be included. I am planning if that happens to buy the Necromunda Ambot pack. convert one into a big mek with kff so he looks more origional and then turning one into a mega armored warboss who will have to be run as a counts as normal warboss since mega armor bosses will be gone by then. though why are you saying Thrakka can no longer be used?

Vineheart01 wrote:translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)

Most players will have no idea what yellow orks are. I would just run them however you want to. Personally I never thought my orks should match so my army while sharing the same overall look same metalic paints used on weapons, same red and browns on leather parts of the armor etc. the colors on armor pieces, vehicles etc. is a hodge podge. No two of the same vehicle type have the same colors. I have a yellow, blue, black, red, gray and silver battlewagons, looted battlewagons made from landraiders are all different space marine chapters in their paint job too, ditto looted Necron and Eldar vehicles.

The loss of a cheap KFF would hit harder than the Biker Boss. The latter is, fortunately, only slightly better than the Wartrike and Zhad. And you could always proxy your Biker Bosses as Trikes, if you gotta. Doubt anyone is gonna give you a hassle over it.

All that said, with snipers seeming to be on the rise, I dunno how much longer the KFF Mek would have been viable anyway.

They aren't going to invalidate the Indexes. They are just starting to stop selling them. CA 1 isnt invalidated even thought they are out of stock and CA 2018 came out.

PiñaColada wrote:

That's not counting on the player rerolling 1 failed armor save, or is it? I just have a morbid curiousity as to what the odds are in the worst case scenario Assuming you haven't moved of course, because then you might employ more dakka to counteract that.

Assuming you are refering to command reroll that was factored in on my simulator along with the FNP to see how well castellan is protected. Too well. Guess I will try to bait RIS and then shoot crusader or something.

In another topic there's weird tournament next month. Not sure do I go there as it's easter holiday so would like to spend with family(4 days holiday is nice) but it has unusual tournament restrictions. Basically 2k, single codex, no duplicate detachments, max 3 of any individual slots. Yes even troops...Obviously this kills brigades are illegal with this as can't take 6 troops. Max 1 LOW as well. FW allowed. Index unusually for here seems to be allowed though checking it. Oh and max 1 of each data slate except for troops/dedicated transports O_o. This is giving me headache actually.

edit: flowchart banned as usual here

Intended as casual tournament btw.

Wonder what kind of list would be good here. Multiple grot units are obviously not going to be good. Seeing I just got them and am going to paint I guess I would be using death skull shockjumps(3) and scrapjets(3). Typical move for me to take new units to next tournament ;-)

Is this ruleset good or bad for orks in your opinion?


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 Jidmah wrote:
If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.

Issue with index being allowed in tournaments is players are now in 2 classes. Those who got index and those who have to find those on ebay for potentially expensive. Element of pay to win added to the mix.


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mhalko1 wrote:
They aren't going to invalidate the Indexes. They are just starting to stop selling them. CA 1 isnt invalidated even thought they are out of stock and CA 2018 came out.

CA1 contents in matched play are in CA2 though. And GW generally takes dim view on supporting stuff they don't sell.


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Okay made army list for that weirdo tournament. That max 1 dataslate REALLY made things difficult. I tried to cram stuff I'm painting right now.

Battallion: Evil suns

warboss: da killa klaw
weirdboy: da jump
3x30 boyz(big choppa nob each)

Outride: deathskull

big mek w/relic SAW, +1 to wound vs vehicle/monster WLT
3xscrapjet
3xshockump
dethkopta w/rokkit(I found few bodies so would need to get propels)

Spearhead: deathskull

Badruk(ran out of deathskull HQ's since can't take warboss or weirdboy...)

deffdread w/2xkustom mega blasta
killa kan w/rokkit(just to get 3rd HS slot...)
3xsmasha gun+traktor kannon

Filling FA and HS with max 1 dataslate of each was...tricky!

Just 8 CP or 9 if I drop one of the relics. Can't be deep striking much so just 1 mob will be going there likely. Rest da jumped one after another.

Weird tournament rules. But plenty tournaments here each with varying rules. There are more normal competive tournaments and more casual with unusual varying rules so everybody gets something to their taste.

EDIT: ILLEGAL! 4 HQ in the list...

I'm hopeful/dreaming that if/when GW invalidate the indexes it's because they are due to release updated models of those that we lost.

A new Ghazzy/Megaboss could be feasible I reckon. Probably not any time soon but you never know.

A KFF Mek isn't outside the realms of possibility either IMO.

Biker characters are less likely I reckon. The Deffkilla is supposed to be our replacement for the boss on Bike and I don't think GW wants to allow us to put all of our characters on bikes.

Well, if Orks get a release like the CSM do whenever they get back to Octarius/Armageddon, it's very possible for them to release multiple HQ's alongside Ghazzy like they've done for Abby and his crew so far. Ideally alongside plastic tankbustas/kommandos/deffkoptas to round off the remaining resin/metal kits we have in our range.

However, I do agree with An Actual Englishman that we probably will only be getting guys on foot. Judging from the releases from CSM so far, only big centerpiece HQ models can be on mounts, otherwise everybody else is on foot.

 Grimskul wrote:
Well, if Orks get a release like the CSM do whenever they get back to Octarius/Armageddon, it's very possible for them to release multiple HQ's alongside Ghazzy like they've done for Abby and his crew so far. Ideally alongside plastic tankbustas/kommandos/deffkoptas to round off the remaining resin/metal kits we have in our range.

However, I do agree with An Actual Englishman that we probably will only be getting guys on foot. Judging from the releases from CSM so far, only big centerpiece HQ models can be on mounts, otherwise everybody else is on foot.

As much as I'd love it, I doubt we'll get as big a release as CSM. We aren't the chosen villains of this story and we've just had 6 Buggies that, despite their awful rules, are beautiful models, so GW will figure we've had enough for the time being. I would love to be wrong though.

If we did get a decent sized release I completely agree that new Tankbustas, Kommandos and Deffkoptas are possible, as well as new Boyz IMO. They're great but too small given the new scale for me.

I've made a poll asking what new units we'd like to see on various Ork groups on facebook and the results were interesting, a new Ghazzy/Megaboss was top in all of them, closely followed by new Bike characters, then Weirdboy next, Tankbustas, Kommandos then Deffkopta followed by Boyz. Only one person voted that the range was perfect and required no new additions. I'm going to send the data to GW once they open their "community survey". Doubt it'll have an impact but you never know.

Considering the only plastic HQ we have is SAG mek and Wartrike (technically Wurldkilla too but he's a killteam character that for some reason isnt legal in normal play?), new boss/mek boxes are a must. I can live without bike variants but those would be nice too.

I think the "Wurldkilla"/Grukk model can be used in 40k proper. He's just an alternative PK Warboss sculpt.

Including the Deffkilla (that isn't listed under HQ on the GW website) we have 4 plastic HQs - Deffkilla, Grukk, SAG and Mega Mek.

We have 6 resin HQs - Ghazzy, Weirdboy, Badrukk, Zagstruk, Snikrot and Mad Dok (isn't he Elite?).

We have 1 metal HQ - Warboss with Big Choppa.

Madness we have so many old kits in such a key role.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the "Wurldkilla"/Grukk model can be used in 40k proper. He's just an alternative PK Warboss sculpt.

Including the Deffkilla (that isn't listed under HQ on the GW website) we have 4 plastic HQs - Deffkilla, Grukk, SAG and Mega Mek.

We have 6 resin HQs - Ghazzy, Weirdboy, Badrukk, Zagstruk, Snikrot and Mad Dok (isn't he Elite?).

We have 1 metal HQ - Warboss with Big Choppa.

Madness we have so many old kits in such a key role.

I think part of the reason why is because GW was very willing to rest on their laurels with AoBR being on sale for so long and on the market that pretty much everyone had the Black Reach Warboss. Which people then either converted into mega-armour or otherwise. Which is weird because with 3rd party guys like Kromlech and Anvil Industries you can see there's a significant market for alternative Ork HQ's but GW refuses to capitalize on it. Such is the fate of a xenos faction I suppose.

Forgot the MAMek technically counts even though its part of the MANz box not its own thing. Then again does anybody even use him? I cant justify his massive pricetag coupled with how slow he is and 2transport slots...

Mad Dok is elite this time around...for...reasons....i actually thought they removed him at first because he wasnt in HQ. Only other proper named character i can think of that isnt an HQ is either a Knight or is Longstrike, which was originally a unique upgrade to Hammerheads anyway.
I mean, not only are people after non-resin bosses but they also dont want repeat sculps, they want their bosses to look unique. I have 2 AOBR bosses technically but one is converted with some Flashgitz parts to be Badrukk instead, my other proper boss is a Black Orc conversion lol

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.

Issue with index being allowed in tournaments is players are now in 2 classes. Those who got index and those who have to find those on ebay for potentially expensive. Element of pay to win added to the mix.

Oh, I have no issue with tournaments banning indexes or FW. It's not like I'm running orks at competitive events anyways. But in casual gaming the reality is that any datasheet with just a PL value without points might as well not exist. If GW releases a CA which removes point values from index units and BattleScribe follows suit - might as well set those miniatures on fire right then.