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2019/03/23 22:01:50
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: I think what they're getting at is that any task you wanna put the Stormboyz to, another unit can do it either cheaper or better. Nob Bikers (and most vehicles) can do T1 charges, and are more likely to survive them. Kommandos can do T2 DS, are cheaper, and have an extra +1 in cover. Stormboyz aren't bad, I don't think. They just don't have anything to really call their own.
I do consider them bad because they are so expensive. 9ppm for basically faster boyz without the bonus to CC. At the moment my competitive armies rely on HARD Beta strikes. Let them blow up whatever they want turn 1 because turn two I have 90 boyz and 2 bonebreakers showing up from reserve/DaJump to feth you up. And generally what I have on the board turn 1 is a fethlaod of Grotz shielding my Loota bomb and all my characters along with maybe a mob or two of boyz.
This makes me feel like Primorkz are just around the corner because the Beast was indistinguishable from his other brother Primorkz. So that could mean that the greatest Warbosses around right now have all ascended and there are now multiple Ghaz's running around in different warzones setting things on fire
As for Stormboyz....well I just bought 30 more off a friend bringing me to 75ish.....And i only bought them because they look cool because in the game they fething suck. "DEEP STRIKING BOYZ YOU SAY!" Ohh wait, I can save 2ppm and just take boyz and spend some CP to have them deep strike. Or, you know....da jump. Stormboyz need a gimmick badly because right now i view them as nothing more than expensive boyz with no bonus in combat.
Ah the thing with Ghazzy heavily implies that through his random warp jumps he is actually travelling back in time so appears to be at multiple locations at the same time taking names. Would love a primeork development but I doubt it.
Agreed with Stormboyz, they're too expensive for what they offer relative to Boyz and they are crucially not troops. So they are a CP tax. Take them as min squads for the cheapest FA filler perhaps in a brigade? I guess they could run to objectives mid game in a pinch.
2019/03/23 22:17:20
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
This makes me feel like Primorkz are just around the corner because the Beast was indistinguishable from his other brother Primorkz. So that could mean that the greatest Warbosses around right now have all ascended and there are now multiple Ghaz's running around in different warzones setting things on fire
As for Stormboyz....well I just bought 30 more off a friend bringing me to 75ish.....And i only bought them because they look cool because in the game they fething suck. "DEEP STRIKING BOYZ YOU SAY!" Ohh wait, I can save 2ppm and just take boyz and spend some CP to have them deep strike. Or, you know....da jump. Stormboyz need a gimmick badly because right now i view them as nothing more than expensive boyz with no bonus in combat.
Ah the thing with Ghazzy heavily implies that through his random warp jumps he is actually travelling back in time so appears to be at multiple locations at the same time taking names. Would love a primeork development but I doubt it.
Agreed with Stormboyz, they're too expensive for what they offer relative to Boyz and they are crucially not troops. So they are a CP tax. Take them as min squads for the cheapest FA filler perhaps in a brigade? I guess they could run to objectives mid game in a pinch.
ATM my Tournament list doesn't even use brigades, I use 3 battalions. This way I get a lot of CP for my loota bomb and can still field my codex: deepstrike infantry/vehicles. I am thinking about possibly getting rid of my 2 Bonebreakers and taking more boyz but I haven't decided yet. The bonus to my bonebreakers is I put a warboss in Redder armor in one of them because its hilarious when you tell your opponent that they just took mortal wounds and because they come in turn 2 and have a pretty damned good chance to get into CC with anything I need them to be in CC with, especially when you factor in the 3D6 charge. On the flipside I could just as easily bring a few more warbosses on Warbike with Powerklaws or Saws instead and another mob of boyz in reserve via tellyporta......Regardless, the point is that I don't bring brigades because the elite and FA slots are basically taxes for us right now and it annoys me to no end.
Same, it's all about the battalions for any faction really. The flexibility is too valuable. I'm not convinced on Bonebreakas personally, they're fun but don't do much we can't do better in other ways.
You're right on our FA and Elite slots (apart from Nobz, maybe) but I'm too addicted to my bikes. I'll use them even if they are trash and certainly if they are mediocre-sub-optimal.
2019/03/23 22:41:51
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Same, it's all about the battalions for any faction really. The flexibility is too valuable. I'm not convinced on Bonebreakas personally, they're fun but don't do much we can't do better in other ways.
You're right on our FA and Elite slots (apart from Nobz, maybe) but I'm too addicted to my bikes. I'll use them even if they are trash and certainly if they are mediocre-sub-optimal.
I am praying they get a major buff soon because I have 3 Scrapjets now and the idea of running 30 Warbikes, 3 scrapjets and a fethload of DeffKoptas makes me want to scream WAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
2019/03/24 00:08:38
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
An Actual Englishman wrote: So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.
2019/03/24 00:12:15
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
An Actual Englishman wrote: So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.
I thought you didn't like inconsistent rulings? This is the most inconsistent of rulings I have seen. Modifiers apply to passengers in open topped transports unless it's Orks in a Battlewagon with heavy weapons. K.
2019/03/24 00:17:01
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
An Actual Englishman wrote: So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.
I thought you didn't like inconsistent rulings? This is the most inconsistent of rulings I have seen. Modifiers apply to passengers in open topped transports unless it's Orks in a Battlewagon with heavy weapons. K.
Sorry but how is it inconsistent? Modifiers apply to all versions of the open topped rule. The battlewagon rule that lets the battlewagon ignore modifiers is not itself a modifier, so it's not passed onto the passengers.
Nothing inconsistent about it. You not liking it doesn't warp reality to fit your conceptions. My Kabalite Warriors with Dark Lances also suffer a penalty when their Raider moves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 00:17:55
2019/03/24 00:29:07
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I already explained that the Mobile Fortress rule is NOT a modifier nor a restriction, so it doesn't interact with Open Topped in any way, shape or form. Mobile Fortress doesn't make the penalty go away, it just allows "This Model" to ignore it. The unit inside a battlewagon is not "this model".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/24 00:35:27
2019/03/24 00:35:45
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I already explained that the Mobile Fortress rule is NOT a modifier, so it doesn't interact with Open Topped in any way, shape or form. Mobile Fortress doesn't make the penalty go away, it just allows "This Model" to ignore it. The unit inside a battlewagon is not "this model".
Removing a penalty from a to hit roll isn't a modifier? K.
2019/03/24 00:40:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
No, it isn't. Not within the confines of the game rules. There are only 8 pages of rules, it's not hard to read them all. Tools of War sidebar.
I disagree. A modification to one of the game rules is *literally* a modifier. But whatever, it's late here and I can't be arsed.
Great chat.
A modification is not necessarily synonymous with modifier. Again, I've provided a rules citation, you've just gone "I Disagree lalalalalalalala". Not a very convincing argument there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 00:48:03
2019/03/24 06:10:43
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I do think that stormboyz might have a place in a list given your convos line idea for a guaranteed t2 charge, but only if you are already bringing 2 other units of boys thirty strong. The one da jumps, the other tellyports and the stormboyz come in. You could reliably hit the enemy lines with 60 - 90 orks all in t2.
I do also feel that stormboyz need to cost the same as kommandos, I don't see why the two units are priced differently. As they have very similar weapon options, very similar stats. Apparently GW felt that +1 to cover saves and an extra inch of movement was worth 1 ppm while an extra 7" of movement and gaining the ability to advance 6 and blow yourself up is worth 2 ppm.
Personally I feel that faster movement is more valuable on better units, and less valuable on weaker units. If grots had the option to advance 6" for an additional 1 ppm I doubt players would feel it was worth the points spent, but a guaranteed 6" advance on a bonebreaker would probably worth 10 ppm.
In short GW needs to give our entire fast attack section in the codex a points drop. I've tried to find ways to take a fast attack choice but all of the FA choices while fast can't hold up to other choices.
The ork lists I've seen are all pulled from troops and heavy support, and the occasional flyer.
2019/03/24 11:01:10
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I’ve been wanting to try out a Stormboyz/Boyz greentide. The major difference between this list and pre-codex 180 boy tide is that this is a more reliable turn 1, 2 punch and leaves out the footslogging. I’ll be using 5-model base-to-base movement trays to speed up gameplay. Format is ITC Champions packet with recent beta rules. Comments and criticism would be much appreciated:
Battalion- Freebooterz and solitary Blood Axe
Weirdboy (Blood Axe, Morgog’s Finkin Kap, I’ve got a plan ladz!”
Weirdboy
10 Grots
10 Grots
10 Grots
Tellyporta one or two of the 30 boyz squads.
55 stormboyz, 40 da jumped boyz, and the biker characters are the turn one charge threat. The remaining 70 boyz and 15 Kommandos drop down and charge on turn two. The 40 grots shield the stormboyz if I go second, and after that hold backfield objectives and screen deepstrike. The warlord Big Mek stays backfield and helps the grots with morale with breakin ‘eadz, and he flies da badskull banna when you need to keep multiple units around during morale. The Weirdboyz da jump, warpath/Fists of Gork, and super smite their headz off, with the blood axe one being a bit more careful since he has to be alive to farm cp’s.
CP’s: I start with 19, -3 for extra gubbinz, -2 or -4 for Tellyporta, -1 for warphead? During the game use endless green tide, orks is never beaten on the Fists of gorked killa klaw boss, and get stuck in ladz on warpathed squads, and obviously mob up and some rerolls
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/24 19:06:45
2019/03/24 18:21:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.
2019/03/24 18:28:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Grimskul wrote: Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.
Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 18:29:47
2019/03/24 18:33:00
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Grimskul wrote: Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.
Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice
It's certainly enough to deal with most infantry, but you won't be able to guarantee always getting a good charge, due to chokepoints and the nature of terrain on the map (assuming you don't play on planet bowling ball). Plus, against T8 guys like Knights and Leman Russes, those hits don't mean much if you're wounding on 6's without AP, and the Nob can't hard carry like they did in the previous edition. Furthermore, before and after the intial tellyport/da jump, you want some way of cracking open transports to get to the contents within, and smasha gunz give you a way of doing some potential damage to the enemy.
2019/03/24 23:18:35
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Grimskul wrote: Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.
Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice
This is not true, your army loses to 2+ armor. T8 is also hard to beat. One gallant with the 2+ armor relic will beat your entire list.
Vs the gallant: Lets say 180 boys, 5 attacks each. 900 attacks, roughly 594 hits, roughly 95 wounds, roughly 15 unsaved damage. And that is an unrealistic amount of attacks to get in. In reality you'll probably do 5-6 wounds a turn at best. [edit: that's less than 1 expected damage per 10 boyz in combat. It's just so bad. Even if the target was T7-5 you're only getting 30 wounds in with 180 boyz, that's 1.6 expected damage per 10 boyz. That's abysmal. You'll never beat custodes for example.]
Your armies strength is board control and obsec. If you're going down this road in ITC you've gotta consider how you win the primary, and it almost certainly is in Hold More (plus the bonus in many rounds). So, I would ditch the kommandos and add durability to your list. Painboyz are a must, bring 2-3. One squad of stormboyz is probably enough, or a mob-up scenario of 10 on the board and 30 in the sky is probably better than your setup. I'd consider Snikrot for those hard to reach places that 30man blobs don't fit and/or can sit on an objective without getting shot off.
edit2: the more I think about it the more I think Snakebites would suit your army. 6+FNP and the monster hunter stratagem at least gives you a chance at hurting big targets. You can even give your backfield warlord the Snakebite warlord trait, making your grots fearless.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/25 05:53:33
2019/03/25 07:37:48
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
As i am playing only Freebooterz myself atm I dare to give you some feedback.
The core is good but:
1 G-naut alone on the field will be blasted out by anybody with a mediocre firepower, you need 2 at least or invest 4 CP to DS and make sure you charge.
Same for the plane, you need 2 of them or it will be focused
Traktor kannon are great, generally smashaguns are better, ofc if you are not tailoring the list.
I personally find that 1 SAG is enough, I would personally have a warboss to support the orks with LD and kill some elite unit.
I saw no transportation so I guess you DS the nobz, which leave on the field the tankabusta and the gits and the orks, something will be shot to pieces, something important, and I don't know how much punch you would have left.
Lastly, the kultur works only if you can proc it every turn , possibly starting with gunz and than covering the field maybe with the shoota boyz, maybe with the DJ, so again I'm a bit worried you wouldn't be able to use the kultur at it best.
Anyway, happy to see a fellow pirate, giving them hell
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/25 12:00:08
2019/03/25 14:24:02
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I *am* gonna make some adjustments, but it actually did real good yesterday. I was playing one of my Tau buddies, and we just decided to have a super casual game (no objectives or VP, just play until one person decides to give up or runs out of models). I put the MANz in a Tellyporta and the Gitz+Badrukk in the Trukk. Mek Gunz and SAGs were deployed to the back, with some Grots in front. Weirdboyz went behind the Boy squad, and the Trukk and Gork to either side. Dakka Jet off in a corner.
He deployed like a Tau player: bunched up for optimal FTGG. I think he was expecting me to rush into CC, because Orkz. I ended up getting first turn and moved the Jet up into his face, with the Gork and Trukk moving up to the center. Boyz got Warpathed and Da Jumped to flank.
I won't go through turn by turn, but I'll hit the highlights.
Boyz got beat down to just the Nob, but I Greentided them back. Unfortunately, they got wiped shortly after.
Gork and Jet both got 1-phased, but the Trukk and Gitz manages to pull through.
I focused on taking out his units with AP gunz, and then I pulled out the MANz. He had no options to deal with them effectively anymore and gave up around this point.
From playing the list, I'm gonna drop down to 2 Traktorz. But I'm gonna keep the 2 SAGs (1 Supa). They really did the hard work on taking out his vehicles and Commanders. The Jet did exactly what I expected it to: divert fire and die. That allowed my Gork and Trukk to survive to turn 2, and my Gitz to make it to turn 4. I ended up winning when he realized he couldn't really deal with my MANz and Gunz without some AP/high S weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/25 14:24:38
2019/03/25 15:17:47
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.
I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.
On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
2019/03/25 17:30:36
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.
I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.
On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?
Well shootas have 2 shots on 5+ which generally is same as one on 3+. Well odds of getting 1 is somewhat less(55% vs 66%) but at times you get 2. Yes yes pistol but those have issue that not all often reach and sometimes you don't dare to shoot least you end up out of range(particularly deep strike). Shootas you can shoot elsewhere if worry. And 3 attacks is pretty good as it is!
I have plan to build 30 shoota mob for my evil sun. Shoot one chaff unit, charge 2nd(or 2+ units if close enough).
For bikes I have tried 6 strong unit for chaff clearing and even that's been struggling...Just not THAT much shots. 18 shots! Weee! This evil sun mob will shoot 59. Even with S5 vs T4 4+(say scouts) you are at half the wounds past save and against T3(say IG infantry...) extra blip of S is even less important. And in combat again 3 attacks vs 3 attacks...Wee! Okay price is also lot less obviously but also boyz will be tougher and troops rather than FA.
They generally struggle to deal with even 5 tac marines and 5 primaris marines...Well last time they literally spent near all game vs 5 primaris marines. Bleargh.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/03/25 18:07:43
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.
I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.
On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?
Well shootas have 2 shots on 5+ which generally is same as one on 3+. Well odds of getting 1 is somewhat less(55% vs 66%) but at times you get 2. Yes yes pistol but those have issue that not all often reach and sometimes you don't dare to shoot least you end up out of range(particularly deep strike). Shootas you can shoot elsewhere if worry. And 3 attacks is pretty good as it is!
I have plan to build 30 shoota mob for my evil sun. Shoot one chaff unit, charge 2nd(or 2+ units if close enough).
For bikes I have tried 6 strong unit for chaff clearing and even that's been struggling...Just not THAT much shots. 18 shots! Weee! This evil sun mob will shoot 59. Even with S5 vs T4 4+(say scouts) you are at half the wounds past save and against T3(say IG infantry...) extra blip of S is even less important. And in combat again 3 attacks vs 3 attacks...Wee! Okay price is also lot less obviously but also boyz will be tougher and troops rather than FA.
They generally struggle to deal with even 5 tac marines and 5 primaris marines...Well last time they literally spent near all game vs 5 primaris marines. Bleargh.
Wait, do you think bikes only have 3 shots each? They have two dakkaguns, meaning 6 shots per bike
and because they come in turn 2 and have a pretty damned good chance to get into 
I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice 
