Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nauts have a limit of 6 so the only thing that can go in there are characters, kommandoz, burnas, nobz, manz, or gitz
Problem with manz is a squad of 3 takes the entire transport room so theyre out and regular nobz are kinda pricy to be "explode fodder"

Which having him with a squad of 5 kommandoz wouldnt be bad. Cheap and another PK hanging around.

Really like the commando idea. Too bad you miss on the option to pop up on an objective turn 2 / 3 that way.

Personally I prefer a barebone (elite) mek, maybe equipped with a KMB since I run shooty orks and like to bring as many KMB's as possible.
Also you get a nice spot to hide additional characters from enemy sniping.
I often use my Morka as character Taxi midgame if the table is crowded with enemy infantry after my Grot screening is gone.

to be fair, a 5man kommando squad isnt really going to be doing much when they arrive T2/3 unless they burn a turn hiding around a corner or your opponent was foolish enough to leave a backfield spot big enough for them to pop up on so they could charge something of value thats not hyper-deadly in overwatch or melee.
Theyre just boyz with sneaky perks.

Meks would be another idea since theyre really, really dang cheap and ANY extra Kustom Mega weapons is a nice thing, even the pistol. Downside, rule of 3 and they cant bring any ammo runts to bring extra chaff and despite being cheap i wouldnt call them expendable either...still way more expensive than a boy
(though that does give me an idea...you could put a MegaMek w/ KFF in there so the gork has a 5++ while its embarked. MegaMeks can bring an Oiler. Boss, Megamek, Oiler, and 2 Meks is all 6 slots)

If burnas werent so disgustingly expensive i'd just take a min burna squad and have 3 spannas with kmbs, but those 2 burnas are WAY too expensive since they wont be doing jack squat other than dying. Lootas would work for this too but...uh...why would you put a loota in a naut lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
to be fair, a 5man kommando squad isnt really going to be doing much when they arrive T2/3 unless they burn a turn hiding around a corner or your opponent was foolish enough to leave a backfield spot big enough for them to pop up on so they could charge something of value thats not hyper-deadly in overwatch or melee.
Theyre just boyz with sneaky perks.

Meks would be another idea since theyre really, really dang cheap and ANY extra Kustom Mega weapons is a nice thing, even the pistol. Downside, rule of 3 and they cant bring any ammo runts to bring extra chaff and despite being cheap i wouldnt call them expendable either...still way more expensive than a boy
(though that does give me an idea...you could put a MegaMek w/ KFF in there so the gork has a 5++ while its embarked. MegaMeks can bring an Oiler. Boss, Megamek, Oiler, and 2 Meks is all 6 slots)

If burnas werent so disgustingly expensive i'd just take a min burna squad and have 3 spannas with kmbs, but those 2 burnas are WAY too expensive since they wont be doing jack squat other than dying. Lootas would work for this too but...uh...why would you put a loota in a naut lol

Unfortunately, even in that hypothetical instance with the burna boyz, you actually can't take 3 spannerz and 2 burna boyz as the min unit anymore. You can only have 1 spanner for every 5 burna boyz, which makes them an investment that is oddly counter-intuitive to having a large unit of flamers.

Bah i forgot they changed that...
Burry the burnas even further in their grave!

Brewing some lists.

Bumped it to 1300 (cause I'm not sure where I'd shave 50 points...)

Would a Gork be better than a Mork here?

Mounting up my infantry, excluding the back artillery line.

Might be a bit weak to hordes.

1300 points

tulun wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
1) Shoota Boyz are better in a list that wants some ranged options. Slugga Boyz can work just fine, but you kinda gotta commit to the Green Tide CC mentality.

2) PKs can still work, but it IS a risky choice. You could run a Killa Klaw Biker Boss with Big Killa Trait, they seem to do well. The SAG and SSAG (same Trait)are also fine choices. Otherwise, Lootas and Mek Gunz are your best options. Tankbustas also work well, but sometimes have issues getting close enough. Anything with a KMB can help, but you generally don't get enough shots to make it work it.

3) Yes. If you take a "well-rounded" list with vehicles AND infantry, you give your opponent targets for every single weapon they have. Focusing on one or the other DRASTICALLY increases your survivability.

1) Green tide mentality was my general thought, but I got wrecked pretty hard Depending on the army, it sort of feels tough to charge, how would you generally approach getting boyz into combat beyond lots of models? And possibly against an army like Tau? (or is this the worst possible example, 5+ Overwatch nonsense).

2) Yeah, PKs didn't feel sufficient enough by any stretch of the imagination. So I'm pretty much boxed into Lootas (or mayyyybe Flash Gitz if I expect more heavy infantry than vehicles) / Mek Guns and the SSAG for vehicle / heavy infantry.

3) Figured. I'm open to trying both or just mixing it up, but I took a mixed list, and it felt pretty underpowered.

To chip in some advice:
1) You have three ways to make boyz "appear" where you want them - Da jump, tellyport and the Endless Green Tide stratagem. My strategies usually involve keeping the enemy busy T1 with some sacrificial boyz and them hit him hard T2 by dropping a ton of boyz right on his door step. Depending on how much range your enemies have and how well they are dug in, just sitting back and gaining VP through objectives might be a valid tactic as well.
2) Wazbom Blastajets also work great for anti-tank, plus they bring a KFF to soften alpha-strikes.
3) You can protect a few vehicles like a naut or some dreads by putting them into the tellyporta and dropping them when you think the time is right. Something I have run well with is having SSAG, lootas and planes take out alle the anti-infantry and then drop a pair of dreads into the enemy lines during turn 3. In general, both the battlewagon is not performing well due to the lack of decent passengers. Trukks see play to protect a unit of tankbustas or flash gits from shooting. 8th in general is a no-transports edition outside of few very powerful exceptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Long time player but tournament noob...what is the convention these days using rule in books you don't physically own? Do people now worry about this anymore?

I want to run SSAG (who wouldn't) but don't have the book.

Send the TO a mail. Some are fine with just BattleScribe print-outs, some require books. I don't think anyone can tell a PDF on your phone from a GW-epub though.

My next tournament list includes a plan against people with heavy screening to da-jamp mobbed up 40 bad moon shoota boyz showin' off. Stats are as follows (with and without added more dakka) to show expected kills against various different infantry profiles (apologies for makeshift formatting:
_____________________Kills________________
Shots__Hits_|_T4/6+__T4/3+__T3/4+__T3/5+ __T3/6+
160___74.24_|_30.9__12.3___ 24.7___32.9___41.2
160___85.92_|_35.8__14.3___ 28.6___38.2___47.7 (More Dakka)

So notable things is ability to wipe a full mob of boyz, gaunts or cultists (without defensive buffs), or 2/3 10 man squads of fire warriors or guard. Is this the best anti-screen / horde clearance we have at range?

Thoughts on this tactic? I plan to rush a unit of ES stormboyz up to try and mop up screens or get into the heart of the enemy lines Turn 1.

The tactic is solid, and surfaces frequently after Lootas nerf.
The problem is that ES boyz can quite reliably charge from dajump turn one, shoot second layer of screen and charge the first, tripointing for survival, while BM boyz, albeit twice as efficient at shooting, are much less reliable at charging and thus doomed to die.

Also put some Big Shootas in Boyz unit if you are going to use them as shooting platform. These points will pay off quickly.

I've never seen a Big Shoota Boy be worth the cost. You get 3 S4 shots vs 2 S4 and it costs you almost as much as just taking another Boy (5 pts vs 7 pts). The 36" of range would be nice if it were a better gun, and if the rest of the Mob wasn't shooting at 18", at best.

Orkz are still very much a "Boyz before toyz" army. I really can't think of a situation where I'd be glad to have spent those 5 pts on a Big Shoota than on pretty much anything else. A Big Choppa costs the same and is FAR more useful.

That said, yeah. You can use Boyz as a shooting platform. But I'd still just stick with 30 Shoota Boyz. Cuz, at the end of the day, those Boyz still want to get into CC. In regards to sheer volume of fire, Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz DO have a lot going for them.

Fan67 wrote:The tactic is solid, and surfaces frequently after Lootas nerf.
The problem is that ES boyz can quite reliably charge from dajump turn one, shoot second layer of screen and charge the first, tripointing for survival, while BM boyz, albeit twice as efficient at shooting, are much less reliable at charging and thus doomed to die.

Also put some Big Shootas in Boyz unit if you are going to use them as shooting platform. These points will pay off quickly.

i understand the benefit of 40 ES shoota boyz having a good chance to make a charge, but their shooting output is much reduced - 31 hits as opposed to 75-85. a whole mob is likely to overkill screeners as well which means their safety isn't guarenteed. I plan to have stormboyz sweeping into the space that the BM shootas clear, along with a ES Wartrike and two deffkoptas boosting up 23" each and charging seperate targets, this should help tie up enough to protect the boyz.

I'll consider your suggestions about switching them to ES though, though i probably have enough stuff getting into combat turn 1. My list also has lootas which will be double shooting most of the game after turn 1, thanks to triple battalion CPs.

I agree with the big shootas though, might squeeze 4 in if i can find 20 pts

yeah bigshootas are kinda garbage.
I never put bigshootas in my boy blobs anymore. Often i'll put rokkits in there but not bigshootas.
Its S5 but it rarely helps since it still has no AP and ork BS means they often miss anyway.

To put it into comparison, Cognis Heavy Stubbers from Admech are considered pretty good and they are 36" Heavy3 S4 shots for 2pts....

I've mentioned this in a different thread before, but big shootas really need an overhaul to be taken seriously as a weapon. Either up the shots to Assault 5 or drop the points down significantly (honestly 1-2 points is probably what it is worth right now) or give it AP-1 so it actually does something when it does hit. I personally would prefer it if it was rapid fire 3, but I know that doesn't synergize very well with how the majority of Ork weapons being assault. It would actually promote people to bring them in range via boyz mobs though IMO and make trukks much more dangerous up close. Even battlewagons would actually consider them as options at that point.

Even Assault 4 would make them worthwhile. Twice the shots of a Boy for less than twice the cost. That's fine. I wouldn't much like the Rapid Fire idea though. Orkz rely on Advancing too much.

 Grimskul wrote:
I've mentioned this in a different thread before, but big shootas really need an overhaul to be taken seriously as a weapon. Either up the shots to Assault 5 or drop the points down significantly (honestly 1-2 points is probably what it is worth right now) or give it AP-1 so it actually does something when it does hit. I personally would prefer it if it was rapid fire 3, but I know that doesn't synergize very well with how the majority of Ork weapons being assault. It would actually promote people to bring them in range via boyz mobs though IMO and make trukks much more dangerous up close. Even battlewagons would actually consider them as options at that point.

I did a poll at the start of 8th to see what people thought about the Big shoota. The majority of people thought it should be a 2pt upgrade as it currently stands. Some said 3, almost nobody thought 5pts was fair and a few nobz thought it should be 6-10pts because they hit their heads on something hard.


At 2pts a pop I would start using my Big Shoota boyz again. give my blobs of 30 boyz a bit of ranged firepower for 6pts. Do the math though. 6pts nets you 9 shots which on a non BM Ork gets you 3 hits with 1.5 rerolls which nets you another .5 hits on average so 3.5 hits. Against a SM thats 2.2ish wounds and against a 3+ that is .7ish chance to kill 1 Marine. I would argue that 27pts worth of Orkz shooting at Marines should net you better then that but hey it is what it is. As it currently stands its actually 36pts to get .7 chance to kill 1 Marine. Honestly, looking at those numbers I think a good argument could be made to just make Big Shootas either free or cost 1pt.

At 2pts i would definitely use them, but would of course strive to use rokkits instead just because ive had unusually good luck with random boy rokkits popping a termie or primaris before i charged. Or dishing out damage to a vehicle.
I tend to shed them first if i need points somewhere but i still try to avoid that.

That being said, i think upping their RoF would be a better idea. Orks are about extreme rate of fire, and i find it weird that a gun thats twice the size of the standard one only fires 1 more shot....when the proper bigshoota model has a giant backpack of rounds you'd expect it to fire like crazy.

Rapidfire would actually make them horrible. Remember boyz want to be advancing all the dang time, the only times they dont advance is when they didnt need more than their 5" movement to get within 5" of their target for an easy charge plus a tankbusta toss. Which for me is rare unless that unit actually survived combat against whatever they charged /// didnt get lit to hell and back because they butchered what they charged or what they charged fell back.

Flashgitz are our only non-vehicle non-assault weapon source and its also the biggest reason people are iffy on them due to the Heavy problem. I imagine if those were assaults we'd see flash gitz all over the place, even at their current cost.

 Grimskul wrote:
I've mentioned this in a different thread before, but big shootas really need an overhaul to be taken seriously as a weapon. Either up the shots to Assault 5 or drop the points down significantly (honestly 1-2 points is probably what it is worth right now) or give it AP-1 so it actually does something when it does hit. I personally would prefer it if it was rapid fire 3, but I know that doesn't synergize very well with how the majority of Ork weapons being assault. It would actually promote people to bring them in range via boyz mobs though IMO and make trukks much more dangerous up close. Even battlewagons would actually consider them as options at that point.

Semper and me once mathed them out, a BS5+ big shoota is worth less than one point if you compare it to other shooting options orks have (cross-codex comparisons have never been useful).
In fact, multiple models would get better if they just lost their big shootas with no replacement, so you almost definitely should not be bringing any big shootas that are optional.

The only time I would consider big shootas would be on objective-grabbing kommandos, as there is some chance that they will be shooting them for most of the game, eventually earning back their points. But that's something to sink your last 10 points into, not a go-to option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Flashgitz are our only non-vehicle non-assault weapon source and its also the biggest reason people are iffy on them due to the Heavy problem. I imagine if those were assaults we'd see flash gitz all over the place, even at their current cost.

To be honest, I think people are just overly afraid of that heavy penalty. In 7th they were assault BS5 and got +1 for standing still, no one cared. In 8th they are Heavy BS4+ and get -1 for moving, everyone is losing their minds.
Even when moving, they are ridiculously efficient against their infantry targets of any kind, you just need the extra BS when shooting vehicles because you need the numbers to force your way through that 5+ to wound.

I see talk about the gitz again, ok then !

I have like 16 painted flash gits (man they look awesome !) and I would just love to play at least 10 of them. I saw Nick Rose play 10 in his mass grot list, but i don't really see the appeal honestly. I want to try them out (again, last time was a like a month agon). I know I should fit The Cap Baddass in there for the reroll 1s on the gitz, but instead of what ?? Please help !
PLAYER : Addnid

DETACHMENT : Bataillon Dredd Waaagh Freebooters
HQ1 : Big Mek avec Kanon Shokk(1*55), Kanon Shokk(25), [Vigilus]Eul'Shokker surgonflé, Boss kitutou, Grot Graisseur(4) [84]
HQ2 : Weirdboy(1*62), Eul' Saut [62]
Troup1 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup2 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup3 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
HS1 : 3 Mek Gunz(15 + 2*15), 3 Kanon krazeur(48) [93]
HS2 : 3 Mek Gunz(15 + 2*15), 3 Kanon krazeur(48) [93]
HS3 : 2 Mek Gunz(15 + 1*15), 2 Kanon krazeur(32) [62]
Total detachment : 484

DETACHMENT : Bataillon Evil sunz
HQ1 : Big Mek en Méga-armure(1*77), Fling' kustom(2), Pince énergetik'(13), Champ de force kustom(20) [112]
HQ2 : Warboss(1*65), Fling' kustom(2), Pince énergetik'(13) [80]
HQ3 : Weirdboy(1*62) [62]
Troup1 : 30 Boyz(70 + 20*7), 3 Bombes kass'tanks, Boss Nob(0) [210]
Troup2 : 29 Boyz(70 + 19*7), 2 Bombes kass'tanks, Boss Nob(0) [203]
Troup3 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Elite1 : Painboy (1*52), Pince énergetik'(13) [65]
HS1 : 10 Flash Gitz (150 + 5*30), 2x Grot Bastos(4), Kaptin (0), Kikoup', Squig Kafteur [308]
Total detachment : 1070

DETACHMENT : Escadrille freebooters
Flyer1 : Dakkajet(1*88), 4 Super fling'(40), 2 Super fling'(20) [148]
Flyer2 : Dakkajet(1*88), 4 Super fling'(40), 2 Super fling'(20) [148]
Flyer3 : Dakkajet(1*88), 4 Super fling'(40), 2 Super fling'(20) [148]
Total detachment : 444

ARMY TOTAL [1998]

(army list editor is in french but it is pretty straight forward for a english speaker imo)

From how the list reads, it seems you are locked out of index options.

Badrukk is basically a walking mek gun, so I'd just drop mek guns for him. That, or the pain boy, badrukk shooting something dead will probably protect more boyz than the pain boy.

 Jidmah wrote:
From how the list reads, it seems you are locked out of index options.

Badrukk is basically a walking mek gun, so I'd just drop mek guns for him. That, or the pain boy, badrukk shooting something dead will probably protect more boyz than the pain boy.

Yep I'll drop the painboy, he is really shines with 90 boyz, not less. Thanks !

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/cgd953/pandas_weekend_rundown_07200721/

Only one ork doing well this week... but with 20 MANz. Holy gak.
There is a twitch stream linked, maybe someone can find out how he used them.

20 manz? wow thats a risk. If he faces a speedy army that'd be tough to do anything with them.

Also, yeah dump a mek gun for badrukk. Badrukk is good enough to justify bringing even without flashgitz around because hes both a pretty punchy gun that hits reliably (rerolls 1 aura he has works on himself) but he's also one of the tougher characters we have. Only 3+ save character and has a built in invul so doesnt need KFF shelter and he has 6 wounds so snipers arent going to pick him off that easily.
Its pretty difficult to get rid of him without deleting a ton of other orky stuff first.

I think I found my nemesis for the freebooterz list. Ad mech. I can't win vs them. Period. I think the only way to go is to play secondary like engineer, marked for death and ground control and take away the mortar with the SSAG, shoot the rest from 36" and pray to get the charge on the castellans , otherwise is f.....g impossible. So goddamn frustrated...

Ive been collecting admech and even just looking at their dex (knights with them) i'd have to agree they kinda counter orks casually.

They have decent rate of fire hitting on 3s for anti-boy and practically everything else is anti-vehicle in some way, or can be made such with a stratagem.
Plus, stygies -1 to hit makes it difficult to remove the problem artillery quickly.

The army-wide -1 to hit mechanic is pretty much the sole reason i dont like freeboota. Its pretty common, and makes getting the freeboota trait really difficult.

 Emicrania wrote:
I think I found my nemesis for the freebooterz list. Ad mech. I can't win vs them. Period. I think the only way to go is to play secondary like engineer, marked for death and ground control and take away the mortar with the SSAG, shoot the rest from 36" and pray to get the charge on the castellans , otherwise is f.....g impossible. So goddamn frustrated...

What's the Ad Mech list you are having trouble with?

Question on Flash gits and Lootas.

What is the best configuration for Flash Gits? (Unit size, only in Trukks, etc).

Seems like they are viable in non-Freeboota only in Trukks, because you can't Grot Shield them. Trukks also let them get into position and potentially provide a 3+ armour save if the Trukk gets popped. Would you have to include something like a small Kommando unit for protective wounds as well?

In a Freeboota list, can you walk them with Grots around for protections? Trukks aren't cheap, but it seems like just trading grot points for Trukk points.

Lootas also only seem to be good in Bad Moonz list (get the 2nd round of shooting, re-roll ones). But the issue is Bad Moonz is only optimal for certain type of units (Gorkanauts, Dakkajets, etc). Given the lack of mob up, are Lootas taken very often anymore? What do you think would take their mantle up instead? Seems like a big commitment to Bad Moonz is required to use Lootas, when a lot of other units you probably wanna take really want Deathskullz (small units with powerful, low # of shots / attacks) or Evil Suns (Slogging infantry, stuff that wants to deepstrike / charge).

Grot Shield stratagem isnt kulture locked, any grot can protect any kulture.
The problem comes in only 1 unit a turn can benefit from that shield, so a single flashgitz unit is all you can really get away with.

tulun wrote:
Question on Flash gits and Lootas.

What is the best configuration for Flash Gits? (Unit size, only in Trukks, etc).

Seems like they are viable in non-Freeboota only in Trukks, because you can't Grot Shield them. Trukks also let them get into position and potentially provide a 3+ armour save if the Trukk gets popped. Would you have to include something like a small Kommando unit for protective wounds as well?

In a Freeboota list, can you walk them with Grots around for protections? Trukks aren't cheap, but it seems like just trading grot points for Trukk points.

Lootas also only seem to be good in Bad Moonz list (get the 2nd round of shooting, re-roll ones). But the issue is Bad Moonz is only optimal for certain type of units (Gorkanauts, Dakkajets, etc). Given the lack of mob up, are Lootas taken very often anymore? What do you think would take their mantle up instead? Seems like a big commitment to Bad Moonz is required to use Lootas, when a lot of other units you probably wanna take really want Deathskullz (small units with powerful, low # of shots / attacks) or Evil Suns (Slogging infantry, stuff that wants to deepstrike / charge).

Pretty sure you can take Ammo Runts for your Flashgitz. That'll keep 'em safe if their Trukk goes boom.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Shield stratagem isnt kulture locked, any grot can protect any kulture.
The problem comes in only 1 unit a turn can benefit from that shield, so a single flashgitz unit is all you can really get away with.

"Page 127 – Stratagems, Grot Shields
Change the rules text to read:
‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit
from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of
Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon.
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time
an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit
if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan>
Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the
Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the
target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that
Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’"

Appears to be <CLAN> locked if I read this correctly? from the FAQ. Seems like Bad Moonz Grots only protect Bad Moonz.

Regardless, Trukks are the way to go? Do you pack them with Kommandos as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pretty sure you can take Ammo Runts for your Flashgitz. That'll keep 'em safe if their Trukk goes boom.

Fair. So go with 5 w/ 1 runt, or 10 w/ 2 runts.

I do 8 Gitz, 1 Kaptin, 2 Ammo Runt, 1 Kaptin Badrukk in a Trukk. Works fine for me.

 buddha wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I think I found my nemesis for the freebooterz list. Ad mech. I can't win vs them. Period. I think the only way to go is to play secondary like engineer, marked for death and ground control and take away the mortar with the SSAG, shoot the rest from 36" and pray to get the charge on the castellans , otherwise is f.....g impossible. So goddamn frustrated...

What's the Ad Mech list you are having trouble with?

I think the problem is picking secondary and countering the kastellans. They are driving me insane. I think next time I'll DS a gorka, deploy 43" everything from them and focus on cleaning screens and cataprhon. T2 3d6 Charge the gorka into the robots together with boyz and warboss with relic claw and fist of gork. I hope that is enough....