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 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

You're gonna have to give some context for this, I'm not sure who or what you're responding to?

It also seems as though certain builds rely on these index options to function effectively.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

You're gonna have to give some context for this, I'm not sure who or what you're responding to?

Not the best=/=bad.

If I have one unit that's good for tournaments at 300 points, and there's a second, identical unit that's 305 points, I'll take the 300 point unit every time. Does that less than 2% difference make the unit awful, no-good, suitable only for the trash heap? No. Not at all.

Likewise, just because a unit does not appear in a Grand Tournament winning list, doesn't make it bad.

 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

Given your now provided context it looks as though you misunderstand me.

The lists seem rely on a cheap, Mek-shaped KFF and a Warboss on Warbike to function. We're not talking about a small points difference here just to get the most optimum possible build, the standard Mek with KFF is 75pts base, the Mega Mek with KFF is 119 pts base which is a 59% increase. It's also slower. There's no unit that is equivalent to the Biker Boss. There is no equivalent to the Biker Mek that also featured in certain builds.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Not the best=/=bad.

If I have one unit that's good for tournaments at 300 points, and there's a second, identical unit that's 305 points, I'll take the 300 point unit every time. Does that less than 2% difference make the unit awful, no-good, suitable only for the trash heap? No. Not at all.

Likewise, just because a unit does not appear in a Grand Tournament winning list, doesn't make it bad.

But if a unit used in your competitive list becomes unavailable and is replaced by an objectively worse unit that fulfils a similar role, your competitive list has just become worse overall. If you do this for multiple units your list becomes significantly worse.

I'd say the Wartrike is fairly equivalent to the Biker Boss, or even just a bog-standard Warboss thrown in with Da Jump.

But, yeah. Obviously the loss of Index units is gonna take some finagling to figure out how to field competitive builds without them. Fortunately, all the other Factions have to figure it out too. Also fortunate that, for the most part, we only got to figure out how to replace the Biker Boss and the KFF Mek effectively.

My main point being: this isn't a huge blow to our armies and we have the tools to build competitive lists without Index options.

SemperMortis wrote:
Of those 8 lists you see a HEAVY reliance on HQs and Grotz to feed CP into the ork list. There were 3 units that do VERY similar jobs that were then buffed to hell with CP to make them decent. Lootas, Tankbustas and Flashgitz with a much heavier reliance on Lootas and Bustas then Flashgitz. There were something like 20 units listed but a large number of those were only seen in a very small proportion of the lists (2 or 3 at most, some only had 1 entry). The vast majority of the lists had the exact same built and or play style.

I don't know what you were expecting though. Having cheap CP to funnel into decent options is pretty much the very definition of a competitive codex in 8th edition. Having solid units that pull their own weight is not something that's happening a lot right now.
That orks rely too much on stratagems to make their army work is a true and justified complaint - but has nothing to do with how competitive they are.

Funny how we don't see Trukkz, morkanautz, gorkanautz, dreadz, or deff koptaz in any of the recent 8 placing lists from the month of August.

The last meta shake-up was when the big FAQ axed the castellan and removed mobbed up lootas, you'd at least have to go back until then.
Both a kopta and the tripple naut list are in the first post of this thread, I can't find the list with the flash gits trukk right now, but you might find it yourself.

My belief is that now that hte codex isn't new, people aren't using those units because they are easily countered or there are a lot better alternatives.

Even if there is a better alternative, that doesn't mean that the other one is not competitive. Prime example of this would be dreads. Right now people are using Gorkanauts exactly as they are were using dreads before because of their superior firepower and because you have only one ramming speed stratagem. This doesn't mean that dreads are trash tier.

And to add more to englishman's post. Almost every single list (I don't want to look again) featured Index only units, most notably the Big Mek KFF and the Warboss on warbike.

Some lists skip the KFF mek, but the biker warboss is a must take. That doesn't mean that orks won't survive the index units leaving, because as you have correctly concluded, the majority of our power comes from shooting units kicked into overdrive through gretchin CP, backed up by efficient and powerful guns like smashas and the wazzbom and the utility of tellyporta and da jump. All of that is staying.

For me the loss of the biker big mek with kff was a crippling blow when codex dropped, even more so than the biker boss. Because he could keep up with boyz charging or other fast stuff.
Honestly the wartrike doesn’t hold against biker boss because strengh 7 vs strengh 10. Watrike doesn’t do jack s... against toughness 8 armoured targets for instance... So I can see why for some of you losing bike boss is even worse than kff on bike.
Mini meks losing kmb is so stupid...
Arf... you “non ETC guys” (because ETC has meant no INdex options for over a year now) will soon see that it is far worse than you think hah hah. Of course some lists still work but, but you will be even more locked into a few builds.
However I think next CA will see huge point drops for FA choices, as well as slight point drops for other of our machines. The new primaris transport may mean a good point drop for our beloved trukks and BWs.
In GW we trust (hah hah).
I also think that those of you who don’t have much love for our mandatory CP feeding 60 gretchins should try those 10 base movement trays. Makes fielding these dudes so much easier...
I still would never want to field 100 of them though.
What is frustrating atm is that units like dakka jets and scrapjets (nauts ans even perhaps trukks too) just need like 15 point drops to become completely tourney worthy. So we are not that far from unlocking vehicle heavy builds. ATM they just “don’t quite cut it”. But GW is just this close... so fingers crossed for next CA. New SM being a such a tough match up might help us get CA point drops too

I love my Scrapjets, i field them as often as I can in my friendly games. But they are a lot more then 15pts off from being competitive. They are in a weird spot right now because at the moment they don't stay in a squadron so when you deploy them they become independent units which has its upsides (Damage doesn't carry over) and its downsides (You can't buff all 3 with Strats). At the moment the scrapjets I play with have 1 massive drawback, they are unreliable at best and completely paper thin on defense. T6 with a 4+ save just means it takes a bit more to kill then say a Trukk. As for damage output, the scrapjet falls into the same problem as all ork units/vehicles, BS5+. The Rokkit Kannon amounts to 4 shots so usually 1 hit, but its 1.33 on average. the wing missile is a 50/50 against vehicles, so you have 1.8 hits with Rokkitz a turn....not exactly amazing for a unit that costs 110pts, you can get 6-7 tankbustas for the same price which put out more rokkitz with a reroll against vehicles. You also get 6 BS4 Big shoota shots and 6 BS5 big shoota shots. Again, not worth much. If you really wanted to make the scrapjets worth taking, bump them to BS4, give them a git finda or something, and reduce the price to 100pts, then they would become competitive, but as of right now, 1.8 rokkit hits a turn and 12 Big shoota shots isn't frightening, and while getting into CC is useful for the Scrapjets, you don't want them in CC because then those weapons are wasted and for some god awful reason, the scrapjet hits on 4s instead of 3s.

And Jidmah, I know the last FAQ nerfed a lot of things and changed the game play, but that is the point, I am judging us by how we currently are, not how we were back then. On top of that, the loota bomb was just a prime example of how shoddy our codex was written that we require Stratagems to make subpar units competitive. The biggest boon to orkz during that golden era was the fact that we relied upon weight of dice and having rerolls and shoot again strats benefited our guns greatly. Having 25 lootas dump 50 shots which explode on 5s and 6s, reroll 1s and then getting to shoot again was just amazing. I loved hosing down Tau players hiding in their gunline


And to everyone saying "Just take a Wartrike instead" ....Nobody was taking the warboss for mobile Waaaghing ability, they were taking him as a delivery system for the relic PK which was devastating to vehicles and super heavies. My opponent once ignored my warboss on warbike during a finals game and instead dumped his shooting into my Boyz, only to have my warboss charge his gunline and single handed kill 3 of his vehicles in 2 successive CC phases.

If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

 flandarz wrote:
If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

ive been using my "Da Jump" to deliver mobs of boyz where they are needed. And if you deep strike a warboss and he fails his charge....well, you just handed the enemy your warlord, not exactly worth the risk.

To be fair, if you move a Biker Boss up the board and he fails his charge, you just did the same thing.

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, if you move a Biker Boss up the board and he fails his charge, you just did the same thing.

True, but when he is a Evil Sunz warboss its fairly hard to fail a charge, especially with a 15' movement, a D6+1 advance and a 2D6 +1 charge with rerolls. You are looking at on average a threat range of 27' I would say that on average you are less likely to fail that charge then the deep striking 8' charge

Really depends on deployment. If your opponent deploys his armor to the opposite corner from your Boss, it'll easily take 2 turns to get to them. Even directly across, and with deploying right on the edge of the deployment zone, you're generally only getting 3" into their deployment zone after the charge. Not really that reliable against any savvy opponent who knows what a Killa Klaw Biker Boss can do. Though, I think he can use Ramming Speed, so that certainly opens up some options.

Still, point is that we have a replacement for the suicide Titan killer, though he's certainly less competitive at it (though it's also less of a blow to your army if he gets killed, since he's something like 30 pts cheaper).

HI all.
I just buyed Deffkilla Wartrike and want start collecting orks in 40k (allready have 5k points IJ in AOS). What units from speed freeks are playable now? And what about kans, dreads and mega nobz?

Are there any rumors about new models for boyz/lootaz/nobz/bikers now?

 flandarz wrote:
If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

If you're running evil sunz what's the harm in taking the named version of the biker boss? Being forgeworld index I'm assuming he is still going to be tournament viable.
Then you can put the relic klaw on a foot boss and you've got the ability to dajump and charge across the field.

Thayme wrote:
If you're running evil sunz what's the harm in taking the named version of the biker boss? Being forgeworld index I'm assuming he is still going to be tournament viable.
Then you can put the relic klaw on a foot boss and you've got the ability to dajump and charge across the field.

Chances are that he ends up in Legends aswell as other FW units and lists.

Ran a dreadmob vs Primaris Space Wolves, Battle Report Here (with the lists in spoilers ).

Won the game, but in fairness he had tailored against infantry and I brought dreads, so he was on the back foot from the off.

Lessons I learnt:
Deff dreads with 2 KMB and deffskulls are good, they hunt armour well in both CC and shooting. I'd want at least 2-3 though.
SSAG is mega. It rolled well, but daaaamn it killed a lot! last game the regular SAG killed nothing. well worth it's points!
Tailoring is bad!

Warboss Marc Parker has placed third at nova on Saturday:
https://www.40kstats.com/novaopen

I thought it interesting that the biker boss was the only index option he fielded besides the nobz shootas (because, why wouldn't you want free shootas?).

 flandarz wrote:
Really depends on deployment. If your opponent deploys his armor to the opposite corner from your Boss, it'll easily take 2 turns to get to them. Even directly across, and with deploying right on the edge of the deployment zone, you're generally only getting 3" into their deployment zone after the charge. Not really that reliable against any savvy opponent who knows what a Killa Klaw Biker Boss can do. Though, I think he can use Ramming Speed, so that certainly opens up some options.

Still, point is that we have a replacement for the suicide Titan killer, though he's certainly less competitive at it (though it's also less of a blow to your army if he gets killed, since he's something like 30 pts cheaper).

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.


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ImperialDwarf wrote:
HI all.
I just buyed Deffkilla Wartrike and want start collecting orks in 40k (allready have 5k points IJ in AOS). What units from speed freeks are playable now? And what about kans, dreads and mega nobz?

Depends of the competitiveness of your meta really. In highly competitive metagames, almost all speed freaks are too inefficient to compete.
The shokk jump dragsta, kustom bosta blasta and the scrapjet all do what they are supposed to squig buggy and the boomdakka snazzwagon are bad. Biker mobs die too easily for their costs, and don't have enough punch in combat, but their shooting is ok-ish.
Kanz are really bad right now, to a point where I would avoid buying them unless you get a really good deal.
Both dreads and MANz are decent if you tellyport or jump them, but don't expect them to survive walking up the board.

Are there any rumors about new models for boyz/lootaz/nobz/bikers now?

The only active rumors are these: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779347.page (Thrakka + X)

I highly doubt that any of the four boxes will get new models any time soon. From a business standpoint I doubt that GW would replace well-selling box like that when the vast majority of ork players almost certainly wouldn't update their armies. They also just repackaged all of them with new bases, so they are probably going to hang around for another decade or so.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

Are they? 2 DJs, with full Supa Shootaz, have 36 shots between them, while a full mob of Shoota Boyz have 60 shots, and cost 40 more points than the Boyz. The Boyz will, on average, land 23 hits (with Bad Moonz, and DDD), while the Jets will land 24 (after All Da Dakka, Bad Moonz, and DDD). And the DJs have a better Strength profile, allowing for more reliable wounding against T3-T6, and AP which make Saves less of an issue. Doesn't seem "nowhere near as efficient" to me, at least until you get to the Charge Phase and the Boyz are able to put their Choppas to good use. But against T3 with a 6+ Save, DJs will still reliably clear a 20 model chaff unit, which is really all you're trying to do anyway.

Alternatively, ditch the DJ and Da Jump your Boyz T1, then Da Jump the Boss on T2, after the chaff has cleared, since that's generally when your Biker Boss would have been making his charge anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.

That's fair. Honestly, I ain't really been using the Biker Boss anyway, since the SSAG and a contingent of Smashas will generally get the same job done without risking my Warlord. I was mainly just throwing out ideas for people who might be like "but all I know how to play is a Killa Klaw and can't think of any alternative to this!"

The biker warboss is never my warlord though, and his job isn't smashing titans and he usually dies after fighting once or twice.

Killa klaw + attack squig + dakka guns + shoota are plenty to assassinate most characters, grind through a unit of primaris, smash a daemon prince or finish off a vehicle.
People also dance around him like stupid when you mention the "orks is never beaten" stratagem while he is in the middle of their army because they want to avoid getting the klaw again. He has broken up entire UM castles that way.

 Quackzo wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.

1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.

2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.

3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.


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I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.

Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to units of 20-30 like in Steven Pampreen's and Charles Velazquez's lists in Panda's run down.
Using MSU units of 10 makes a lot of a sense but I'm curious what the benefit of going over 20 in a unit is and how people are running them.

It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

Dakkajet vs shoota boyz - that' s interesting topic, because it' s not just about the stats. It' s about tactics. Hard-to-hit flyier starting out of range of most of the weapons moving 60” is very flexible and gives you 1.turn 100% dakka. Well, Da Jumped boyz also, but you can' t have 2 of them and they have to be 9” away (problem with LOS) Dakkajet is something that gives you the chance to have 30 boyz AND dakkajet shooting 100% turn 1, which is more than solid screen cleaning firepower. And what about the boyz and 2 dakkajets....


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It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

@Jid: again, fair point. And, again, just showing an option for people who still want to do that in a post-Index world.

@Tom: I think whether you take Boyz or Jets is gonna depend on the kind of list you're building. Boyz work really well in infantry heavy lists, but fizzle if you put them with mostly mechanized (generally even if you put them in something first). Jets are the opposite.

 flandarz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

Are they? 2 DJs, with full Supa Shootaz, have 36 shots between them, while a full mob of Shoota Boyz have 60 shots, and cost 40 more points than the Boyz. The Boyz will, on average, land 23 hits (with Bad Moonz, and DDD), while the Jets will land 24 (after All Da Dakka, Bad Moonz, and DDD). And the DJs have a better Strength profile, allowing for more reliable wounding against T3-T6, and AP which make Saves less of an issue. Doesn't seem "nowhere near as efficient" to me, at least until you get to the Charge Phase and the Boyz are able to put their Choppas to good use. But against T3 with a 6+ Save, DJs will still reliably clear a 20 model chaff unit, which is really all you're trying to do anyway.

Alternatively, ditch the DJ and Da Jump your Boyz T1, then Da Jump the Boss on T2, after the chaff has cleared, since that's generally when your Biker Boss would have been making his charge anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.

That's fair. Honestly, I ain't really been using the Biker Boss anyway, since the SSAG and a contingent of Smashas will generally get the same job done without risking my Warlord. I was mainly just throwing out ideas for people who might be like "but all I know how to play is a Killa Klaw and can't think of any alternative to this!"

I feel like in this post you have spent a silly amount of time attempting to prove why 2 Dakka Jets are about as efficient at clearing a screen as Boys (which they obviously aren't, by the way, because you've conveniently forgotten the most important phase for Jumped Boys which is the fight phase, also always assume Jumped Boys are Evil Sunz - you need to make the charge) to suggest that the Warboss on foot is similar to a Bikerboss because he can be jumped, then agreed with Jidmah when he suggested that the Bikerboss is actually pretty different to the Warboss on foot. Which is it as you seem really conflicted?


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 Tomsug wrote:
Dakkajet vs shoota boyz - that' s interesting topic, because it' s not just about the stats. It' s about tactics. Hard-to-hit flyier starting out of range of most of the weapons moving 60” is very flexible and gives you 1.turn 100% dakka. Well, Da Jumped boyz also, but you can' t have 2 of them and they have to be 9” away (problem with LOS) Dakkajet is something that gives you the chance to have 30 boyz AND dakkajet shooting 100% turn 1, which is more than solid screen cleaning firepower. And what about the boyz and 2 dakkajets....


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It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

Dakkajets tend to melt on the first turn in my experience - even with KFF support.

 flandarz wrote:
@Jid: again, fair point. And, again, just showing an option for people who still want to do that in a post-Index world.

Unless I really need the aura, I'd rather get another SAG or Badrukk though. Or a blood axe grot detachment with Snikrot.

If Zagstruk weren't such a mess, he could replace him as well.

I didn't forget it. Read it again: "atleast until you get to the charge phase". Also, you didn't really refute my other claims (easier wounding and AP means more models dead on average). However, I'm reasonable. As I stated above, Boyz are certainly better suited for Infantry lists than Jets are. That's fair. However, as with the Warboss, Boy Mobz are gonna fail that charge 1 in every 5 games, right? I bet the chances of a Jet failing to clear enough units from a chaff screen to have it cleared by the next turn (via losses and morale) is significantly lower

I also just said: "that's fair," which isn't exactly an agreement. But, more importantly, what do you consider "pretty different"? The differences Jidmah mentioned were "nearly guaranteed charge" and "a gamble that fails 1 out of every 5 games". So, let's assume "nearly guaranteed" is a 35 out of 36 chance and you can ONLY fail on double 1s. That's approximately a 97% chance to succeed. Making a 9" charge as an Evil Sunz Warboss has something like a 68% of success. That's a difference of 29%. Significant, but certainly not "this unit cannot, at all, be useful as a substitute for the Biker Boss" you seem to claim that it is.


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Really? Well, I can see why you'd think they aren't all that great, if your opponents are able to wipe a T6 W12 Sv4+/5++ unit that gives ranged attacks a -1 to hit in a single turn. Seems like a lot of focus on one, in your words, "not as good as Boyz" unit though.

No Flandarz you seem to be misunderstanding me, again, and therefore going off topic/to weird ad libs.

The complaint is that we've lost the Biker Boss, a key component of many Ork lists. Your reaction was that we can simply take a Warboss on foot and use Dakkajets to clear the screen, thus getting your cheaper Killa Klaw boss in combat utilising Da Jump. To this my reaction is that your Dakkajets aren't going to clear enough of a screen to allow the boss to get in and you are unable to jump he Boys because you've presumably jumped the boss instead.

Now you haven't really responded to this. Sure, you can jump the Boys first turn and aim to jump the boss next turn, but that means your Killa Klaw isn't getting used first turn and the enemy can potentially target/kill your boss (particularly as he's an INFANTRY keyword character rather than BIKER that makes him incredibly vulnerable to a certain sniper).

I think that some of you are looking at this and not seeing the bigger picture. The BIKER keyword and speed massively helps protect the Killa Klaw to ensure it reaches combat. In the assassin heavy meta we are slowly moving towards this means the Killa Klaw will likely never see combat, and so it becomes a wasted relic. That in turn pushes us away from the relic (and the boss that uses it) and in turn this pushes us away from builds that are now less viable and hence limits our viable builds. I think that sucks, more options are always preferred over less and our competitive builds aren't exactly the most varied as is (yes, yes, I know we have it better than other factions - that doesn't make it right).

Think about the KFF now that it has to go on a MegaMek, Morkanaut or Wazzbomm. Think about the knock-on effect that has on units that relied on a cheap 5++ bubble to weather any AP ranged weapons.

Hopefully many of our units that deserve it get a points drop in CA because these changes, though not crippling for a competitive list, absolutely make our choices much more limited and therefore, in my opinion, boring.

I'm finding the walking boss better suited to counter punch or jump t2 to be a treath mid field or backline. Just be sure to jump him behind a wall To avoud overwatch and you should be good to go

First off: I did check the math on Boyz vs Jets, and if you account for the Charge phase, they are roughly twice as efficient at screen clearing. So, allow me to apologize for saying otherwise. You were right, English.

That said, if you NEED the Charge phase to clear a screen, then you're already resigning your Biker Boss to a T2 Charge into what you want him to take down. In terms of clearing the way for a T1 Charge, the Dakka Jet still outperforms Boyz

I agree that losing the Biker Boss is a big blow. My entire argument up to this point was just saying that he CAN be replaced (albeit not quite as competitively), not that the Warboss is "just as good."

Hopefully we'll see some list changes due to the losses we got. At the least, we'll probably see more mechanized lists in tournies.

And yeah, I also hope for the day when Ork units are appropriately priced.

As for my weird ad-libs, all I can really say is that I'm not a debater by nature. I don't really know what to look for when someone says "strawman" or anything like that. My education stopped at high school and I went right into military service. Now I deliver mail for a living. This is justt some backstory for me saying "I'm not really a clever guy. I just say what's on my mind, using the information I have at hand. I'm sorry if it comes off as weird ad-lib."