No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**vercingatorix**

addnid wrote:
vercingatorix wrote:
Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.

I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

Thanks for all dem explosiv’ Taktiks ! Do you feel like a second « no deffrolla » battlewagon for say the flashgitz for example would be possible ? Or would that be too many points and too much big stuff to hide ?

I have grot shield to protect the second squad plus the heavy weapons means that I really don't want to move them if I can. Also inside the wagon they don't benefit from the reroll 1 aura.

Maybe if the battlewagon was like, 80 points cheaper? Usually though, it's better to just be on the board and grot shield. Even in the vect match up I'd rather just place them out of LOS then have them in wagon in most cases.

**Vineheart01**

i personally dont see a point in gitz in a wagon.
Its not hard to kill and they dont benefit from auras (still get freeboota +1 thanks to opentop ACTUALLY HELPING FOR ONCE lol).
I'd rather footslog them or have them in a trukk to shoot them to midfield and then blow up giving them 3+ armors. If it doesnt blow up, just park somewhere to block stuff, which is what trukks are good for (and about all theyre good for). A wagon doing that job is around 2.5x the price for...a slightly bigger blocker. If i bring a wagon i want it to have a rolla and charge my opponent, to at least force him to take it out and not something of actual importance.
that being said i still think theyre overpriced. They, just like every other under T6 2W models, just vaporize to autocannons.

**Emicrania**

vercingatorix wrote:
addnid wrote:
vercingatorix wrote:
Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.

I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

Thanks for all dem explosiv’ Taktiks ! Do you feel like a second « no deffrolla » battlewagon for say the flashgitz for example would be possible ? Or would that be too many points and too much big stuff to hide ?

I have grot shield to protect the second squad plus the heavy weapons means that I really don't want to move them if I can. Also inside the wagon they don't benefit from the reroll 1 aura.

Maybe if the battlewagon was like, 80 points cheaper? Usually though, it's better to just be on the board and grot shield. Even in the vect match up I'd rather just place them out of LOS then have them in wagon in most cases.

One important question though, do you prefer go first or second, in case you go second, in which way that influence your playstyle?

**vercingatorix**

Spoiler:

Emicrania wrote:
vercingatorix wrote:
addnid wrote:
vercingatorix wrote:
Hey everyone,

Had a super fun time this weekend. I read through you questions and they revolved around bustas in the wagon.

Did I reserve it?
No, the whole point of the thing was so I DIDN'T have to reserve the tank bustas. In fact, I never reserved anything the whole tournament. I also lost my only game at CCBB to my montreal round 4 opponent because he had a bommer that could kill my bustas despite LOS or grot shield. Putting them in a wagon prevented that.

Did I use grenade strat?

I grenaded the hell out of things. I used it in 3/5 games and the only reason I didn't use it in the other two was because my opponent through everything they had at bustas to kill them or I wanted to run to a second floor to snipe a misplaced character.

1st game I used grenades to remove most of a custodes walking squad.

2nd game I used it to increase their volume to finish off an ork boys squad so they wouldn't green tide.

3rd game my opponent was simply not paying attention and moved 2 caladius grav tanks in range turn 1. My bustas nuked 2 of them (it would have been 3 but 16 rokkit shots wounded once on the other tank). That turn my warboss + flash gitz killed a knight, and my SAG mek did 8 wounds to a shadowsword, and my smasha guns finished off the third caladius. So, 3 caladius, and a knight down turn 1. it was awesome.

I had a ton of fun with those explody bois.

feel free to ask any other questions

Thanks for all dem explosiv’ Taktiks ! Do you feel like a second « no deffrolla » battlewagon for say the flashgitz for example would be possible ? Or would that be too many points and too much big stuff to hide ?

I have grot shield to protect the second squad plus the heavy weapons means that I really don't want to move them if I can. Also inside the wagon they don't benefit from the reroll 1 aura.

Maybe if the battlewagon was like, 80 points cheaper? Usually though, it's better to just be on the board and grot shield. Even in the vect match up I'd rather just place them out of LOS then have them in wagon in most cases.

One important question though, do you prefer go first or second, in case you go second, in which way that influence your playstyle?

It depends greatly on opponent, If I can hurt them then I prefer first, if it's GSC or hiding marines or something then I prefer second.

**addnid**

Thanks for the imput guys !
That BWagon ain’t gonna get cheaper next CA if it appears in tournament winning lists though will it

(TBH I am pretty sure it will go down by like 20 points, which probably won’t be enough)

**Jidmah**

Even if the BWs would become cheap as chips, the bigger issues that there are no units you would want to put inside them - their traditional passengers boyz, nobz, MANz and burnas all don't hit hard enough anymore, so there is not point in buying them an expensive transport.

Battlewagon lists used to drive those units into the enemy line and if just one wagon made it, it would cause havoc there. Nowadays, 20 boyz, 15 burnas or 10 nobz bounce off some troops unit and then get gunned down.

I think improving the power of PKs (remove -1 to hit? D6 damage?) might be a solution to that problem, but then we might just start tellyporting those things and still not use transports.

**Vineheart01**

if they'd let is overwatch from inside the dang wagon again it wouldnt be as bad.

**Elfric**

D6 might be a bit much for a PK but what about flat 3 damage
or wounds of 6's causing a MW in addition to regular damage

**tulun**

The -1 to hit is really the big thing about PKs (variable damage sucks, but if you can't even hit...)

But I'm pretty sure it would largely invalidate Big Choppas, so I doubt they'd do it.

**Vineheart01**

Orks generally always hit on 4s in past editions, thats not really the issue why the PK isnt that good.
Instadeath is gone and no random PK will threaten a vehicle anymore, while previously a single PK hitting something usually meant it died or got really, really hurt.

Thats the issue. Theyre expensive compared to other melee weapons, hit less with new rules, and dont really do much damage. The ability to wound anything T6+ on 3s doesnt mean much when you lack the damage or rate of attack to deal with the mass of wounds those high toughness models generally have.

If PKs either were stupid cheap, didnt have -1 to hit, or actually did a lot of damage when they DO hit they'd be fine. The AP bonus is the only real reason to want it over a bigchoppa, and usually isnt worth it in the end.

Course the other problem is killsaws, which are supposed to be PK+1 basically. If you make PKs more stable/deadly, what do the saws do now?

**Shinzra**

Hello everyone, looking to collect Orks soon and wanting to find some information out before building.

From Ork Boyz point of view, are shooters the way to go overall?, so you still have 3 attacks each but the option to shoot?

Or is there benefits to slugga and chopper that I am just not seeing

cheers

**flandarz**

You definitely want SOME Shootas, but Sluggas are fine too. I think most folks go with 20/10 Slugga/Shoota ratios. Those 20 extra attacks can really add up when you're trying to get through a unit.

**Vineheart01**

These days its usually a mix of slugga/shoota unless you are going bad moonz.
Sluggachoppa +1 attack adds up really fast but if you are PURE sluggachoppa you are actually hurting yourself because realistically only about half are ever going to swing in melee at best, might as well have the rest be shootas and attempting to dakka as they run up to charge.

**ManTube**

Id say footslogging boyz should be 10 shoota 20 slugga while da jumped boyz should be all shootas. Their primary purpose is early screen clearence to make holes for more dangerous threats, so 30 go up, shoot up one screen then charge another. You should get most into combat this way if you make the charge, so the 60+ attacks should be plenty to deal with a screen unit or two. And if you dont make the charge, well at least they had shootas and got to actually do something before being blown away.

**Gretchin66**

Hello all, fairly new Ork player here. Have recently made the addition of a SSAG to my army. I usually run evil suns with a detachment of badmoons in support for my lootas. Last game a ran the SSAG in a deathskulls vanguard detachment with 3 meks w KMB which was pretty awesome. Are people generally running SSAG as badmoons or deathskulls?

**Jidmah**

Gretchin66 wrote:
Hello all, fairly new Ork player here. Have recently made the addition of a SSAG to my army. I usually run evil suns with a detachment of badmoons in support for my lootas. Last game a ran the SSAG in a deathskulls vanguard detachment with 3 meks w KMB which was pretty awesome. Are people generally running SSAG as badmoons or deathskulls?

Usually Death Skulls, as bad moons rarely get more than one re-roll out of a round of SSAG shooting anyways. Most top lists seem to run bad moons for lootas and planes, deff skulls for SSAG and evil suns for deep strikers.

**Vineheart01**

I run as badmoonz for the sheer fact that my entire army is usually bad moonz anyway.
Bad moonz is technicaly weaker than deathskullz for the SSAG, mostly for the damage reroll, but not by much.

**T1nk4bell**

Not by much?
Let's say average 7 shots with str 7 without any other Bonis VS a Vehikel with toughness 7 amor 3 for easy math.
Bad moonz will do average 3,11 hits 1,55 wounds no save its 5,4 dmg average

Deff skull same amount of shots 3,11 but 2,05 wounds because of wound reroll and because of one dmg reroll it's average 9,2 dmg.
That's more than 40 % mor Effekt

Edit : someone has a link to London Gt lists and results?

**flandarz**

Badmoonz vs Deathskulls

Both should get about 3 hits, on average. Against T8, Badmoonz will get 1.75 Wounds, while Deathskullz will get 2.45 (or so). Against a 4++, 0.88 vs 1.23, meaning 3.08 vs 4.92 (or so) Damage. This is, of course, averaged out over multiple shooting phases. As Vine said, relatively minor damage increase, but when it makes a difference, you'll feel it.

**T1nk4bell**

Minor? That's 60 % more dmg average in you're example

**flandarz**

Well, I mean when you're shooting things with 20 Wounds or more, 1 or 2 more a shooting Phase is kinda minor.

**T1nk4bell**

In you're example it's 7,7 times shooting vs 4,8 times shooting against a knight

it's 3 times shooting less that's hardly a lot?

I mean it means that the deffskull kills average a knight + a leman russ + a bit in the same time like the bad moonz kill a knight average

**flandarz**

I mean, that still means they're both taking out about 1 Knight a game. But, most importantly, Bad Moonz means your SSAG AND your Gorkanaut can both shoot twice.

**T1nk4bell**

A normal tournament game is about 3 rounds mayb 4.
Well yes if you play a morkanaut

But that's list specific.
No prob to play loota bad moonz and sag mek deffskullz and so on. But whatever you mean

it's not minor it's hugh different between both. Depend on target its 40-60% different.
It's about one deffskull sag mek = 1.5 bad moon sag mek or easier one deffskull shoots like a bad moonz with 3 d6

**flandarz**

Side by side, the Deathskullz is obviously better. What I mean is that Deathskullz might not be the best Kultur for everything else in that Detachment. Anything with more than 12 shots (like a Gorkanaut, Dakkajet, etc.) will be better served with Badmoonz. Running Deff Dreadz? You'll probably want them to be Evil Sunz. You can't take the SSAG in a vacuum, because you still have 1916 pts to spend on your list after that. Even with 3 Detachments, you're probably putting more than the SSAG, Grots, and a Weirdboy into the Dread Waagh (especially if you want options for your Kustom Ammo Stratagem).

Basically: the difference isn't high enough to gimp the rest of your Detachment over. The SSAG will perform just fine as pretty much any Kultur you tuck him into.

**T1nk4bell**

Yes of course. But there are options enough they are good in deffskull and mostly there is no problem to build in there, like the most lists do.
Like double sag mek 30 grots deffskullz
Than dakka dakka dakka bad moonz double shoot lootaz
And one bat with boys and deep strike stuff.
A lot of options out there, and yes a morkanaut should be bad moonz for sure, like a dakka jet should be and so on
That just depends on the list and what you play.
250 points for a deffskull dread whaagh with two sag meks 30 grots, kustom ammo for the sag mek, 1750 points with whatever

**mikethefish**

I get that Ork are very CP dependent. How screwed am I going to be if I only bring a Battalion and an Outrider detachment?

Not to be a grumbling curmudgeon, but Detachments are my least favorite aspect of modern 40k. By a huge margin.

**flandarz**

I run that at 1k and it's fine. As long as you're a bit miserly with your CP. But, yeah. 9 CP can get burnt real quick, depending on what you're running. Badmoonz Lootaz and a SSAG? You can expect to go through 6 CP a turn easy. Freebooterz Smashas and a Wartrike? You could probably end the game with CP to spare. Really depends on your load-out.

**mikethefish**

flandarz wrote:
I run that at 1k and it's fine. As long as you're a bit miserly with your CP. But, yeah. 9 CP can get burnt real quick, depending on what you're running. Badmoonz Lootaz and a SSAG? You can expect to go through 6 CP a turn easy. Freebooterz Smashas and a Wartrike? You could probably end the game with CP to spare. Really depends on your load-out.

Fair enough - I won't post entire list but the gist is...

Evil Sunz' mono-clan 2000 pts. The main elements are 90 Boyz, a Gorkanaught, a Morkanought, a Wartrike with three Snazzwagons, and the usual assortment of Gretchin and HQ selections. I use no Index options - codex items only.

Before people say it, I do get that buggies are not optimal. My thinking is that they are basically certain to all get points drops in the new CA, so I see them as a sort of "investment" that will pay off in the fullness of time. And if they continue to be overpriced? Oh well - I just really like 'em.

**flandarz**

That list is very CP stingy. You're fine with a Batt and an Outrider.

Edit: only thing I'll say is that mixing vehicles and infantry tends to go poorly. Generally better to go with one or the other.