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Oh, if they didn't have the GRETCHIN keyword, we'd be having a very different conversation. Just a mob of Bad Moonz Rokkit Kanz, Tellyporta'd in, double shooting, then Ramming Speeding into an enemy would be deadly, even at the cost we have now.

RE: FAQ.
Grotsnik change was inevitable and I'll still run him. He's better than a painboy in function and has warboss capabilities in melee. Also I just like the dude.

I"m mostly bummed about lack of changes in in forgeworld units. I was really hoping they'd address Zhadsnarks lack of advance and charge for himself and clarify on the existence of Buzzgobs KFF.

i probably had the most ridiculous outcome of a SSAG ever...

Deathskullz trait. In two turns (counting the Kustom Ammo fire twice), it brought an Astraeus tank from full to 4 wounds, full killed a Redempter and did all except 5 damage to another, and oneshotted a sciaran tank hunter.

Really all he had left was a few characters at this point. He called it lol.

I dont think ive ever seen the SAG do that much damage except in 6th edition when it bullseye boxcar deleted a Draigo wing lol

Was a local friendly vigilius campaign game, though we were doing a standard 40k rulebook mission. I originally was going to leave my SAG and/or Squiggoth at home since its friendly but i saw people using knights, leviathans, and Girlyman so i said eff it and brought back the big guns...well gun lol.
That was almost twice the amount of damage i usually get with that thing. More often than not, two of my 4 shots in 2 turns completely whiff either in the strength, number of shots, or just fail to hit department. All 4 hit hard this time lol, and i didnt even roll Str11/12

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Mek Gunz' grot crew are basically considered to be part of the mek gun "model" without being glued to it.
Realistically, you could just plop the thing onto a base thats about 1" wider than the mek gun and it'd be the same footprint as having 6 grots huddled around it that do absolutely nothing other than make your footprint wider.

Well it also affects los as well(sometimes gun itself would be out of los but crew visible allowing gun to be shot) but foot print is bigger.

Reroll thing on faq's also slight effect for orks. No rerolling 1 dice with 1 ability and if still fail reroll other with another.

Albeit all that has resulted for me is waste of cp so far

I dislike the fact that Oblits get to pick their targets after rolling the strength of their weapons, but our SAG Mek, which has a far more variable strength, cannot.

I dislike the SAG anyway to be honest, it's so swingy even when taken as the SSAG and for every awesome roll there's a poor one coming.

I also find it irritating that our burnas remain trash and they nerfed Nobs (because we all know those Nob lists were dominating the meta).

This FAQ is a poor one, IMO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I dislike the fact that Oblits get to pick their targets after rolling the strength of their weapons, but our SAG Mek, which has a far more variable strength, cannot.

I dislike the SAG anyway to be honest, it's so swingy even when taken as the SSAG and for every awesome roll there's a poor one coming.

The wording on errata'd SAG and obliterators is almost the same, so regular SAGs also roll before picking. Only the SSAG got left out for that errata for some reason.

I also find it irritating that our burnas remain trash and they nerfed Nobs (because we all know those Nob lists were dominating the meta).

This FAQ is a poor one, IMO.

None of the changes were motivated by balance in any way. It was 100% housekeeping, clearing out rules that were misunderstood or had unintended effects.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I dislike the fact that Oblits get to pick their targets after rolling the strength of their weapons, but our SAG Mek, which has a far more variable strength, cannot.

I dislike the SAG anyway to be honest, it's so swingy even when taken as the SSAG and for every awesome roll there's a poor one coming.

The wording on errata'd SAG and obliterators is almost the same, so regular SAGs also roll before picking. Only the SSAG got left out for that errata for some reason.

That right? But hadn't we all been playing the SAG and SSAG by picking targets first? Maybe it was just me. So normal SAG you roll str then pick targets? That's cool.

I also find it irritating that our burnas remain trash and they nerfed Nobs (because we all know those Nob lists were dominating the meta).

This FAQ is a poor one, IMO.

None of the changes were motivated by balance in any way. It was 100% housekeeping, clearing out rules that were misunderstood or had unintended effects.

I don't entirely agree, though I do in the main. D6 demo cannons seem like a balance change. All the extra attacks, wounds and other rules for SM units seem like a balance change. It just seems like some balance changes were considered a lot more than others to me.

Demo cannon was to ensure there's no multiple versions of demo cannon(well except dark angels who got assault 3 for reason). Ditto others were unifying rules so same rule/weapon works same wav every book. Since gw now hates usr's and common weapon tables you have to change multiple places if you change one.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I dislike the fact that Oblits get to pick their targets after rolling the strength of their weapons, but our SAG Mek, which has a far more variable strength, cannot.

I dislike the SAG anyway to be honest, it's so swingy even when taken as the SSAG and for every awesome roll there's a poor one coming.

The wording on errata'd SAG and obliterators is almost the same, so regular SAGs also roll before picking. Only the SSAG got left out for that errata for some reason.

That right? But hadn't we all been playing the SAG and SSAG by picking targets first? Maybe it was just me. So normal SAG you roll str then pick targets? That's cool.

Yeah, that was changed during the last big FAQ, just not for the SSAG for some reason - I somehow doubt that this was intentional though.

I don't entirely agree, though I do in the main. D6 demo cannons seem like a balance change. All the extra attacks, wounds and other rules for SM units seem like a balance change. It just seems like some balance changes were considered a lot more than others to me.

They just applied the change to the demo cannon to everyone. While it does improve the LRBT variant that has it, the motivation behind it was clearly to just make one gun work the same for everyone.

Fair enough Jid, I take your point.

In terms of actual tactics and what-not - has anyone played against the dreaded IH yet and do you have any suggestions in terms of how to not get obliterated?

Yeah the SAG roll changed awhile ago and i have been relishing in it.
Oh i rolled absolute crap on my strength....ok lets pop some marines or termies
Rolled S9+? Hello knight!

Space Marines still dies like space marines. anything that has Ap2 or above, will obliterate them. Just screen, out range them and play the mission. You´ll be fine. I lost an important match vs WS last tournament for 3 points just to find out that Warsuits are actually...well warsuits. Not dreadnought, so they can´t use the stratagem to halve the damage....

 flandarz wrote:
I can see a use for it. Rokkit Kanz can put in some work against T7+, with their 4+ BS. But, yeah. Until they make Kanz better or cheaper, just pass on em. If you could get 6 of them for like 210 pts, or so, they might be worth your time.

210pts if they are equipped with big shootas would be doable. anything more and they are trash. And the biggest annoyance is that the morale thing is something you have to worry about with Kanz so running a group of 6 is dangerous. ATM they are 40pts with the Big Shoota, so if you did give them a 10pt reduction in price you could have Rokkit Kanz for 42pts....which is also probably still too high, they really need to lower the price of Rokkitz to either a flat 10 or possibly even less.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Not to mention the only stratagem that actually affects we give a hoot about is the Kustom Ammo. Which why you would use that on a kan squad instead of a naut or SAG is beyond me....
And before "well if the kanz are all thats left..." comments, kanz shooting isnt even that threatening in the first place and if you lost your sag and naut while still having CP you probably got absolutely krump'd 'ard

Getting 5 or 6 additional 4+ rokkits is often better than shooting the SSAG with 2d6 5+ shots again, and don't forget that they do get dakkadakkadakka (I always do).
If you have a naut, that should be shooting twice though.

Kanz aren't terrible, they just aren't worth 50 points a piece.

Kanz are terrible. They are a jack of all trades unit but worse somehow. They are ok at shooting, but they lack range and don't have enough ranged weapons to justify using them as a dakka unit, they have CCW's but they hit on 5s and they are so slow that getting them into CC range, hell getting them into shooting range, takes time and since they are only T5 with a 3+ they tend to not survive as long as people think they will. I agree, that getting those 4-5 extra rokkitz is nice, but on average, that increased damge isn't worth spending CP on.

i would doublefire a SAG any day over a full kan squad.
If they fired 2 rokkits, ok that would be worth it. But 57pts for a single 4+ hitting rokkit?

There are several similar type vehicles (light vehicles with a random big gun) that are significantly stronger than a kan for pennies more. Take the Ironstrider for instance, the 60pt autocannon variant is way faster, tougher, more wounds, and fires 4 3+ hitting autocannon shots for 3 freakin points more. Yeah it has a 4+ instead of a 3+ but it also gets stratagems.

Kanz suck. Literally anything you compare them to they are about 15-20pts overpriced. Even if they did get kultures and stratagems they'd be overpriced, but at least playable.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i would doublefire a SAG any day over a full kan squad.
If they fired 2 rokkits, ok that would be worth it. But 57pts for a single 4+ hitting rokkit?

There are several similar type vehicles (light vehicles with a random big gun) that are significantly stronger than a kan for pennies more. Take the Ironstrider for instance, the 60pt autocannon variant is way faster, tougher, more wounds, and fires 4 3+ hitting autocannon shots for 3 freakin points more. Yeah it has a 4+ instead of a 3+ but it also gets stratagems.

Kanz suck. Literally anything you compare them to they are about 15-20pts overpriced. Even if they did get kultures and stratagems they'd be overpriced, but at least playable.

Killa Kan: 45pts M=6 WS=5 BS=4 S=5 T=5 W=5 A=3 LD=6 3+ save Big Shoota 3 Shots at S5 36' range and a CCW +3S -3AP 3Dmg Don't benefit from Kulture, can't use many Strats.

IronStrider 60Pts M=10 WS=3 BS=3 S=5 T=6 W=6 A=2 LD=8 4+ Save, Twin Cognis Autocannon 4 S7 -1AP 2Dmg Ranged 48 Weapon. Adds +1 LD to itself and all units of the same forgeworld nearby. CAN use Strats and benefits from Forge World (Kulture)

Armored Sentinel: 35pts M=8 WS=4 BS=4 S=5 T=6 W=6 A=1 LD=7 3+ Save, Multi Laser, 3 S6 shots 1 dmg. Benefits from Strats and IG version of Kulture.

So, compared to these the Killa Kan is Slower, Worse WS by a lot, Has either the same or worse BS, same S, lower T, Fewer Wounds, lower LD and the same or+1 save. Its ranged weapon is significantly worse then the other options. So basically its worse in almost every category except....CC, where you don't want your killa kanz to be because they suck at CC. 3 Kanz cost you 135pts and have 9 CC attacks, of which 3 will hit on average, against T8 target with a 3+ they average 1.5 wounds which result in about 3.75 damage. For about the same amount of points you get 20boyz which do 53.33 hits 8.88 wounds which result in just shy of 3 damage. So against the BEST possible target for Kanz they do about the same amount of damage as boyz.

The Kan is about as valuable as the IG's Armored Sentinel. The Sentinel is faster, Tougher and has more wounds, that alone should compensate for the difference in CC ability. So why the hell is the Kan almost 25% more expensive? AND last time I checked, IG players weren't falling over themselves to take Armored Sentinels in any list unless they needed to fill out a Brigade detachment, because unlike Kanz, sentinels count as FA not HS.

In my opinion if Kanz don't get down to 35pts MINIMUM then they won't be competitive, or in other words, nobody will take them.

actually that kan trio would have 12 attacks. They get +1 attack if theres 3 or more kanz.
The only way i want them in melee if theyre somehow still at 5-6 strong. 20-24 dice even with their terrible WS is still pretty dang mean considering theyre high AP and 3 damage.

But, yeah agree on literally everything else.

Adding to that: Kanz suffer from bad morale too. Theyre just squishy enough where its likely to pop two of them, which gives you pretty good odds at one fleeing. Nobody else has that problem, they either split up on deployment or actually have GOOD leadership/arent that easy to pop multiples in one go.

edit: comically though, killakanz are fething dangerous in Apoc lol. My opponent ignored them out of habit and they just baffled both of us with how durable they were and how nasty they shot lol. But thats apoc so moot point, just a funny one.

There are just 2 great aspects of Killakans

1. Great models. Box of kans is the great spare part conversion box. I love it.

2. They can explode. Which is fun. But not competitive.


Another topic - shoota boyz - evil sunz or badmoonz? despite “shoota” in their name, they do bigger damage in cc. But the point is to shoot something and do not boost them with BM culture = take the slugga boyz instead.

What seems to me to be the breaking point is, the mostly shooting army with the badmoonz lootas etc appreciate another yellow gretchkins from another bat for proper grotshield more. I played evil sunz slugga boyz with this army last time and the evil sunz gretchkins was like meh... just a screen. No synergies

The sad thing about Kan explosions is that they also explode on themselves.

I like my Boyz as Evil Sunz, personally, but a double firing Bad Moonz Shoota Boy unit has the potential to clear screens very well (120 shots, 52 hits, 26 Wounds vs T4, 13 Damage after 4+ Save). So, I guess it's up to you.

 Tomsug wrote:


Another topic - shoota boyz - evil sunz or badmoonz? despite “shoota” in their name, they do bigger damage in cc. But the point is to shoot something and do not boost them with BM culture = take the slugga boyz instead.

What seems to me to be the breaking point is, the mostly shooting army with the badmoonz lootas etc appreciate another yellow gretchkins from another bat for proper grotshield more. I played evil sunz slugga boyz with this army last time and the evil sunz gretchkins was like meh... just a screen. No synergies

Evil suns for me. Bad moon just shoots. Evil sun can also be used in cc semi reliably. With shootas evil suns can remove one chaff and then charge another unit(s). Bad moons you shoot and then pray for dices.

So gonna do a dread army with a stompa as a centre piece, bit of a fun army really but want a bit of a punch.

how would you guys run a FW kustom stompa?
dual claw and a bellygun?

what would you guys do in a themed list like this? Its basically gonna be like ork knights so naughts, stompa, kans and dreads.
grots and meks are ok but thats about it for inf

 Latro_ wrote:
So gonna do a dread army with a stompa as a centre piece, bit of a fun army really but want a bit of a punch.

how would you guys run a FW kustom stompa?
dual claw and a bellygun?

what would you guys do in a themed list like this? Its basically gonna be like ork knights so naughts, stompa, kans and dreads.
grots and meks are ok but thats about it for inf

Stompa's in my opinion are a great (but overly expensive) dakka platform. So I would do bellygun + lifta droppa + deffkannnon w/ supa-gatler.
The mega klaw's are pretty bad, the 8 attacks is cool but you give up so much dakka for it and they're straight up worse than the vanilla stompa's mega-choppa. The melee in them is a bit of a trap, you can get way more melee value out of 3 'nauts than a single stompa.

looking at it more unless missing something, the normal stompa is now better? no gaze but its like nearly 200pts cheaper! CC weapon is better, repair thing is better...

stomplist is so far:


SC so the stompa gets cultures thinking bad moons for shooty or snakbite to keep him safer?

 Latro_ wrote:
looking at it more unless missing something, the normal stompa is now better? no gaze but its like nearly 200pts cheaper! CC weapon is better, repair thing is better...

stomplist is so far:

Spoiler:

Supreme Command
Stompa 920
"deffkannon, supa-gatler, 3 big shootas, twin big
shoota, 5 supa-rokkits, skorcha, mega-choppa"
Big Mek, KFF 75
Weirdboy 62
Weirdboy 62

Batallion (Dreadmob)
Big Mek (Shokk Attack Gun) WL - Relic SAG 80
Big Mek (Shokk Attack Gun) 80
11 Grots 33
11 Grots 33
11 Grots 33
3 Killa Kans (3 RL, Klaws) 156
3 Killa Kans (3 RL, Klaws) 156
Morkanaught (KFF) 310

SC so the stompa gets cultures thinking bad moons for shooty or snakbite to keep him safer?

I'd probably run him badmoons for shooty. Stompa fires a lot of shots so you are going to get lots of mileage out of that re-roll ones. I'd also drop the kanz for a gorkanaut, better stratagem support and imo tougher and more dangerous. Kanz drop like flies, T5 5 wounds at 3+ save is pretty easy to chew through even with anti-infantry weapons. Also, I'm pretty sure morkanaut with kff is only 293 points, not 310.

You could go with Dreadz too, instead of Kanz. They ain't as killy as Gorks, but they can put in some work, and they can be more survivable since they split into separate units.

 Latro_ wrote:
looking at it more unless missing something, the normal stompa is now better? no gaze but its like nearly 200pts cheaper! CC weapon is better, repair thing is better...

That would make kustom stompa just worse. As it is apart from automatic lose buttons that titans are stompas are pretty much next on list of worst units in game. Not that shooty and are lucky to survive 1 round(has happened to me once. With 4 wounds).

Yeah, even with T8, Sv3+, and 40 Wounds, Stompas just go down too easy. Which is a shame, considering they're supposed to be these awesome giant robots that strike fear in the hearts of man.

Edit: and cost 3 times more than any of the more survivable LoWs. I think Slaanesh is the only Faction with a worse LoW, and that's only because it has no ranged attacks.

Regular stompa is technically better than the Kustom Stompa...
That...really isnt saying much.

A single knight will do more than a stompa, mostly because the moment the stompa takes even 10 friggen damage he is reduced to nothing but a stupid gun platform since now his melee sucks and he is slow. Doing said 10 damage is easy, since a stompa using kultures wont have proper support and thus is the only real threat, so it eats ALL the 3D and D6+ damage weapons with nothing but a KFF keeping it alive, while the knight at least can get a 4++ and if Taranis also has FNP.
If you want to use a stompa you are looking at ~1100pts for him and the 3 HQs you need to take if you want kultures. And thats with 2 of them being weirdboyz, which dont really do much without a big blob of boyz that you cannot afford now. That is, unless you literally only have a stompa, which in 8th edition is a REALLY bad move to only have 1 vehicle.

That 40 wound pool means nothing. GW needs to fix the bracket system for 4 bracket units. They are ALL crippled by it, even the Titans suck royal gakballs because of that stupid 4th bracket. I thought about getting a titan for my Admech so i could play some big games...no...heck no they all are absolutely terrible thanks almost purely because of that stupid 4bracket system.

Titans are bad even if they had just one bracket. They literally cannot kill enough to win. As it is opponent brings warhound, I don't even bother to try to kill it. Not because it's impossible but because it slows the game down taking more time to win than if I just ramp up objectives...If opponent wants to be crazy enough to bring at least let him to kill stuff rather than table him. He's going to lose anyway so at least he gets to kill stuff in return.

And doubt I would be more impressed with stompa with zero degration either. Out of all the games that would have mattered just once. Shoot once more at full strenght. Whopedoo. Big deal! (actually did degrade even affect shooting? If not no degrade would have had zero effect)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah the SAG roll changed awhile ago and i have been relishing in it.
Oh i rolled absolute crap on my strength....ok lets pop some marines or termies
Rolled S9+? Hello knight!

Why does this work only for the SAG and not for the SuperSAG? Is it because the SAG was mentioned explitely in the (beforelast) FAQ?

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah the SAG roll changed awhile ago and i have been relishing in it.
Oh i rolled absolute crap on my strength....ok lets pop some marines or termies
Rolled S9+? Hello knight!

Why does this work only for the SAG and not for the SuperSAG? Is it because the SAG was mentioned explitely in the (beforelast) FAQ?

When you replace the SAG with the SSAG, it tell you to replace the profile with the one from Vigilus Defiant - which has not received any errata.