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Well GW can't be blamed on players altering. It's like blaming GW for tournaments that ban vigilus detachments.

GW makes rules. If players mess up with rules themselves blame is on players and not the GW.

If GW releases a new version of a book and removes something from it, it's more than fair to assume that the stuff removed should no longer be played.

You know, like SM 2.0 can't use Killshot anymore, because it was removed from the new codex.

GW removed the rules, not the players.

7th book was also written by Ward who had publicly stated he hates greenskins.
Yeah lets make the guy that absolutely hates the faction write the book. Makes sense.

I suffered through 6th because for the most part orks were still playable. 7th i lasted maybe 2 months and shelved my orks, i didnt even bother with the formations that came out later.
Zoggin' git Ward....

They didn't really come "later". It was a day 1 DLC that has never seen a single game of playtesting.

mustve flown under my radar for awhile then because i dont remember them showing up for awhile.
But like i said, 7th i kinda bow'd out. At the time i had Tau and they were the opposite end of the spectrum where i had to TRY to be casual with them lol...i ran complete joke lists and still mashed most players in the area so i got bored of'm.
Meanwhile orks i would be surprised if i wasnt tabled by turn2

I was playing nids 7th. I must have lost 99% of my games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. 6th and 7th were fething gak edition.

 Emicrania wrote:
I was playing nids 7th. I must have lost 99% of my games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. 6th and 7th were fething gak edition.

I played ork for 90% of 7th. switched towards the end to crons but every battle was very near the worst. I may have had like 3 total wins. My common opponent was blood angels but he also played 2++ rerollable daemons

 Jidmah wrote:
If GW releases a new version of a book and removes something from it, it's more than fair to assume that the stuff removed should no longer be played.

You know, like SM 2.0 can't use Killshot anymore, because it was removed from the new codex.

GW removed the rules, not the players.

Except gw specifically said you can play them. Players are the one to blame for going against official rules just as they are when vigilus detachments can't be used.

Players remove, players to be blamed. Simple as that. If house rules cause issue fault lies with house rules.

I think it's pretty fair to assume that rules that don't transfer over to the newest books are probably gonna get axed in the future anyway, so a lot of people just go ahead and not use them. For example, I've been list building without Index options because they didn't make the transfer.

To each their own, however.

I just realized that Battlewagon and trukk are the only units, beside grots and flyer that does not have Ere we go. How's that even possible???

I guess is makes sense since they're both pretty sub-par in CC anyway (unless you give the BW a Deffrolla, but if you do why aren't you just taking a Bonebreaka anyway?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appears that the Bonebreaka also doesn't have 'Ere we Go, now that I look at it.

It is kind of weird as far as outliers go, I guess they don't want transports getting that, for whatever reason.

tneva82 wrote:
Except gw specifically said you can play them.

You do realize there was quite some time between the removal of the formations and that GW statement?

 flandarz wrote:
I guess is makes sense since they're both pretty sub-par in CC anyway (unless you give the BW a Deffrolla, but if you do why aren't you just taking a Bonebreaka anyway?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appears that the Bonebreaka also doesn't have 'Ere we Go, now that I look at it.

This kind of nonsensical stuff makes me wanna cry. It is so humiliating having opponents confront you on your own codex and making you look like a cheater....

eh, could be me and LOSE a game for the opposite reason.
For some reason i thought only infantry had 'ere we go. So i had multiple failed naut charges because i never rerolled when i could have.

 Emicrania wrote:


This kind of nonsensical stuff makes me wanna cry. It is so humiliating having opponents confront you on your own codex and making you look like a cheater....

Bananas that the bonebreaker, which is literally a battering ram into combat that holds some guys on it, doesn't have re-rolling charges unlike basically everything else in the codex. Jesus. That's a massive difference in how good either is, especially the bonebreaker...

I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.

 xlDuke wrote:
I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.

Unless the Deffkilla comes down quite a bit in points in the next CA, he's a pretty meh HQ. Much better HQs to take before one of him. Hopefully he can come down to roughly the current price of a Warboss Biker w/ Klaw.

3d6 is nice, but having to spend upwards of 3 CP to land a charge on something that should charge as easily as the rest of the stuff in the codex (I get why the battlewagon might not have it, but the bonebreaker is a bit of a wtf) kind of sucks. Orks CP is very precious.

They need to make the relic PK work on the Deffkilla as well. Simple fix that would be appreciated.

 Dendarien wrote:
They need to make the relic PK work on the Deffkilla as well. Simple fix that would be appreciated.

Depressingly, he could probably stay the same points and become good with that one change.

That’s how good KK is...

What if his Cutta gained range too? What an odd model.

It has a heavy flamer, a melta gun that’s short ranged, a power claw that’s weaker but more consistent, and a couple other random guns.

All must be taken. Zero customization.

I wonder if you could opt into this stuff he’d be better too

tulun wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
They need to make the relic PK work on the Deffkilla as well. Simple fix that would be appreciated.

Depressingly, he could probably stay the same points and become good with that one change.

That’s how good KK is...

What if his Cutta gained range too? What an odd model.

It has a heavy flamer, a melta gun that’s short ranged, a power claw that’s weaker but more consistent, and a couple other random guns.

All must be taken. Zero customization.

I wonder if you could opt into this stuff he’d be better too

I think if he had S6 base like normal Warbosses do (at least making him S8, which is the optimal number at least against most vehicles), 2D6 for the flamer shots and 2D3 for the cuttas, and the boosticks had at least AP-1, he would be worth his current points. As is, he needs a point drop to at least 100, maybe 90, given how unwieldy his base is.

like i said a few pages ago, the wartrike is sitting in this really weird butterzone where it sucks at everything.

It cant shoot because its only gun thats a danger is 8" and dunno bout you guys but i never get that unless i advanced, im usually doing 9-11" charges with him.
It cant kill numbers because only 5 attacks (why SM get 12+ attacks in a captain but a warboss doesnt is beyond me)
It cant kill vehicles because it has S7 and low AP/D3 damage. It'll hurt them for sure, but rarely ever kill even a rhino.
Its auras are limited to vehicles/bikes advance+charge. Doesnt even have the Warboss Breakin' Heads rule to at least be a mobile morale officer (heh..heh..)

The only way ive had him be even remotely a threat is if hes my warlord and has Fists on him. Thats it. And he usually dies immediately after because i simply can NOT keep him from being the closest model thanks to that huge footprint preventing my 3" consolidation from letting me get around him.

Wartrike needs a massive point cut or several rules/statboosts to be good.

Really, you wanna be within 4" for that damage reroll. But, really, the absolute best use I've could come up with for the Wartrike was to make him a Badmoonz Warlord and give him Da Best Armour and Supa Cybork for (probably) the most durable single model we can field. But, even then, you're pretty much relegated to suiciding him to slow something down for an extra turn or two. If he had longer range guns, using those and Billowing Exhaust Fumes could be useful for a mobile gun platform, but sadly no.

tulun wrote:

 xlDuke wrote:
I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.

Unless the Deffkilla comes down quite a bit in points in the next CA, he's a pretty meh HQ. Much better HQs to take before one of him. Hopefully he can come down to roughly the current price of a Warboss Biker w/ Klaw.

3d6 is nice, but having to spend upwards of 3 CP to land a charge on something that should charge as easily as the rest of the stuff in the codex (I get why the battlewagon might not have it, but the bonebreaker is a bit of a wtf) kind of sucks. Orks CP is very precious.

I agree the Deffkilla is not a particularly good unit but it serves a function for a Battlewagon list. I figure either you’re Tellyporting a BW/Bonebreaka in which case you’re using the 3D6” charge stratagem whether you’ve got Ere We Go or not, or it’s one of many similar vehicles being deployed on the board - in which case you’re probably taking a Deffkilla just for the advance and charge ability. In either scenario you’ve got to set CP aside for your charges because they’re what your stratagem hinges on. As with all our lists efficient CP planning and expenditure is paramount because our army just doesn’t function at all well without it. CP is certainly precious for Orks because our stratagems are powerful, but it’s simple enough to have all the CP you need to make your list work in the early turns.

 flandarz wrote:
Really, you wanna be within 4" for that damage reroll. But, really, the absolute best use I've could come up with for the Wartrike was to make him a Badmoonz Warlord and give him Da Best Armour and Supa Cybork for (probably) the most durable single model we can field. But, even then, you're pretty much relegated to suiciding him to slow something down for an extra turn or two. If he had longer range guns, using those and Billowing Exhaust Fumes could be useful for a mobile gun platform, but sadly no.

Problem is we have a SSAG that currently badly wants the warlord trait.

Now if a gorkanaut could take Da Best Armour now we d be talking (I d love to have a buzzgob like character that would go inside his gorkanaut, like pask or the Tau hammerhead pilot there)
But 8 wounds won’t last long even with a 4++ and a 5+++

Putting you warlord trait on a warboss or deffkilla is just giving your opponent a free VP.
The traits benefits them massively, but they are also very easily killed. In a mission where the warlord can award multiple VP (like maelstrom), I'm quite happy not having to put it on a combat character with no durability to talk of.

I agree with both of you. There's a difference between "the best way to run something" and "you should do this". I've dropped the Wartrike altogether myself, because without the trait and Gubbin, he just ain't worth fielding for his cost, and with them he becomes "free VP" for your opponent.

 xlDuke wrote:


I agree the Deffkilla is not a particularly good unit but it serves a function for a Battlewagon list. I figure either you’re Tellyporting a BW/Bonebreaka in which case you’re using the 3D6” charge stratagem whether you’ve got Ere We Go or not, or it’s one of many similar vehicles being deployed on the board - in which case you’re probably taking a Deffkilla just for the advance and charge ability. In either scenario you’ve got to set CP aside for your charges because they’re what your stratagem hinges on. As with all our lists efficient CP planning and expenditure is paramount because our army just doesn’t function at all well without it. CP is certainly precious for Orks because our stratagems are powerful, but it’s simple enough to have all the CP you need to make your list work in the early turns.

It feels rather like an omission, and unnecessarily makes the unit weaker. Ere we go is a MASSIVE buff in charge efficiency. Ork infantry can get a roughly equal or better charge rate for zero CP, just need a weirdboy (half the cost of a Wartrike and basically an autotake in most Ork lists anyway). Upwards of 5 CP just to get a charge off on a bonebreaker smells of a bad trade off, especially if you expect that to be coupled with another 120 point unit that also has to get into position. CP has a lot of opportunity cost, and having some spare around for emergency rerolls, counter charge is also nice.

It would be in my mind a lot more viable if I could do an either / or proposition here; Either, I use a wartrike to babysit the charges of my wagons, or I can just use the 3d6 charge strat for consistent charges on a particular wagon.

It's fine, though. I would absolutely shocked if a number of Ork units we discuss here don't get massive point reductions, simply so GW might start selling more models. And if they were even somewhat forward looking, a cheaper Ork army might actually be just fine in the new marine meta, because the codex actually has plenty of good tools, they are just probably too expensive per point.

Played a little 1k point game today. Apparently Buggies work really well when your opponent brings a bunch of Poison weapons that only wound you on 6s, and all their anti-armor either misses (despite a 3+ BS), or rolls 1s for damage.

I´m seriously thinking to start spamming GW IG and FB. Something on the lane of :


We are one of the major faction and we got last year an "Orktober" that was a joke: 5 overcosted, underwhelming, uncustomizable models and a, well yes good, codex that "unfortunately" made us skip CA 2018.
We got green tide and lootas nerfed, fair enough.
We are about to loose to legend, yes GW nobody that play this game competively in any way will allow legends models, 3 of the most used HQ (Big Mek KFF, Big Mek KFF on bike, Warboss on bike).
We are also gonna loose: Warboss in Mega Armour, Painboy on bike, Kommandos with Eavy Weapon, 2 Nobz wepons, 6 Spanner customization, 5 Mek customization, Skorchas, Warbuggie, Watrakk, Big Bomm on Koptas, Big Gunz, Rokkit Luncha on Battlewagon, Kustom Mega Blasta on Killa Kanz and other weapons on the HQ are left.
We have left a 94 poins warboss that hits like a Space marines Sergeant, a 119 4" Mek that cant keep up with the only job he has and a 150mm bike that is menacing as a newborn Calf and a T4 4W 6++ wizard that blows himself up like an illegal firework most of the time.
Once you used to make multi kit, or customizable kit or even suggest us modellist to kitbash.
How about making a new Ghazghkull that we can use also for a boss in Mega armour and a Mek in Mega armour, so we dont need to buy a 3 Meganobz kit to salvage an HQ?
How about making a decent Warboss on bike kit, so we can use as a Painboy and a KFF kit?
How about making something for the hobbist and tournament players, that push this hobby to be known worldwide and inspire younger generation to be better players, better modellist and buy more stuff (let´s not forget about C.R.E.A.M.)
How about giving us the tools to be a challenging opponent, instead of a target to practice your new Space marines dices. How about making a game where nothing have 93% chances to succed, and help us to remember that it is a dice game?
How about giving us something to keep enjoy this game for real?
Instead of giving us a motherloving $55 AUD, 25 €, $40 CAD, ￥4,700, $65 NZD, 220 NOK, 240 SEK, 200 DKK, £20, 35 US$ useless red GRETCHIN ?!