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One thing i miss about older editions was indirect fire had inherit penalties.
Previously they didnt apply their BS when scattering, and afaik all indirects were a blast, or the Tau Smart Missiles which werent very popular due to not being able to splitfire (always waste a gun shooting or waste shots against a target SMS doesnt wanna hit). That wouldnt work in the current edition, so a -1 to hit would make sense.
Right now theres no penalties for hiding in a corner so nobody can do anything about you and firing these crazy weapons. The indirect snipers especially are capital BS for this. And the only indirect orks have is a lobba which LOL yeah no im not touching that.

The indirect profiles are usually weaker than the direct profiles though. For example, Eliminators lose one AP, deal 1 instead of d3 damage and no longer cause mortal wounds when firing indirectly. They ignore cover and get +2 to hit though...

They still hit hard.
And of course Ork characters fold in seconds to snipers so we almost HAD to be out of sight to exist or be smothered in grotshields (which denied lootas/gitz grotshields). Cant even do that now.

I dont like indirect fire being a primary weapon. It should be poke damage, not unit-wiping potential. Im not even a fan of my admech's tank getting those indirect S6 Ap1 2D shots, its just ridiculously good.

Have we come up with any viable tactics in the new meta yet? I think Blackie had it on the previous page - we need to go back to the old, classic green tide. I can't see anyway we can hope to realistically kill what we need to from the Marine army so I think our only hope is to flood the board with as many bodied as possible and try to win on objectives. It's boring, it might not work but I can't see another way. Anyone else with any ideas? Lootas don't seem to be the answer, Flash Gits are too niche and Tank Bustas only operate against vehicles, really.

What else we got? Smashas, Grots, Boys and warbosses?

Might be best to see what CA gives us, since it's only about a month out, rather than working on some solutions that will be outdated by 2020. But, yeah. Our best bet, right now, is to force Marines to kill things that are so cheap and numerous that they can't stop us from winning via VP.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
2 weeks guys. December should be a decent month for us as CA and our PA books come along.

Otherwise, and after digesting them, rage again.

I’m with you on this less raging and more wait and see...
I expect chapter approved to fix some issues even if not a lot of changes directly for orks. (Hoping buggy points changes)
I expect some new ork stuff in PA and I hope we get a new character model!!!! With all the legacy stuff going away almost any character model would help!

Orks havent kept up but should get slight boost regardless.

Agreed with CA but I have some serious concerns.

It is entirely possible that only Smasha Guns and Grots are touched (both go up in points) and we get the Xmas gift of the Red Gobbo taking the majority of our competitive HQs to Legends status.

It could, it is very likely, be bloody awful for us. I'm scared.

At the very least, I'd be shocked if GW didn't give the Stompa a drastic decrease in price. Even their Stompa Mob gimmick wasn't enough to make it playable. I'd also expect to see a point drop to the Workshop (even if nothing short of a total rework would make it viable).

So while, yes, it's possible we won't see anything but nerds, I seriously doubt GW will ignore how a fair number of our units just aren't selling and do nothing to change that.

theres a rumor leak of ca19 that says marines got even cheaper in it.
I call BS on that one. Recent releases dont get touched by CA. But if that seriously did happen i'd probably shelf my armies for awhile.



I hold very little faith in this, but the admech thread is kinda flipping out since apparently theres a bit in the Inquisitor book that points to this being true.

I seriously doubt it's true. They probably included just enough plausible information to make it seem valid, but there's no reason to believe that it's anything but a troll.

Is there any other army that is gonna be fethed as much as us by Legends?

 Emicrania wrote:
Is there any other army that is gonna be fethed as much as us by Legends?

No. Nowhere near.

The Red Gobbo is a bit of a 'feth you Ork players' it seems like. He's literally coming to take some of our most competitive HQs away.

The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them.
Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned
Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.

To be fair, I was already prepared for this when those options didn't make it into the Codex. I might be a newish player, but I can still recognize the signs of when a company is looking to phase something out.

I'm currently pondering an entirely non-competitive fun list to bring to a casual game, soon as I'm done building it :



2002 points for 2 stompas and 4Cp to spend. Meks will walk between stompas to ensure they're not the closest model and then jump in one if the other dies. Figure if I can clear enough anti-tank turn 1 they might have a chance, and with 2 things to deploy, going first is almost a given

My other thought is a trio of kill burstas with a unit in each, again for near guaranteeing turn one - you can even tellyport one!

 flandarz wrote:
Might be best to see what CA gives us, since it's only about a month out, rather than working on some solutions that will be outdated by 2020. But, yeah. Our best bet, right now, is to force Marines to kill things that are so cheap and numerous that they can't stop us from winning via VP.

Yes there is absolutely no point in struggling atm. We have had it good for the longest time I can remember (since biker nobz 4th ed bonanza when you could allocate wounds taken as you wanted), time to wait for new stuff.
Does anyone here seriously want to get 15 smashas which are almost certain to go up 30% in points in one month ? Or go to a tournament play x games in a day with 300 grots ? Just forgo tournaments for now, play against non marine players, and things will be fine hah hah

I personally am waiting / hoping for Gorks and morks to lose 15-20% of their cost.

I've been trying to figure out how to respond to the new meta but in line with a lot of other comments, CA19 is rumored to come out early December so I haven't committed to any new ideas. I find myself half building lists in battle scribe with a couple of ideas in them but never finishing the list because the list will most likely be moot within the month.

Here are some of my thoughts:
I've strayed away from lootas a fair bit. They've always felt gatekeeping to me and most competent players I've played against can deal with them. With marines being more common place their AP isn't as relevant as I'd like. Salamanders straight up ignore it, a marine in cover effectively ignores it, and as pointed out by others Iron Hands have a 6+++ that can hinder it.

I've been moving towards Tankbustas and Flash gitz.

Tankbustas are nice and effective but 1 dimensional. Fortunately vehicles and elites are common in my meta, so the tend to find a purpose.

Flash gitz I'm finding good but rough. They feel overcosted but I tend to get my ROI on them. I've recently been considering running them in a trukk, and da jumping gretchin in front of them, to try and protect them. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. The basic idea is trukk scoots in, gets them in range. Gretchin in range for grot shields for inevitable trukk death. This would lean on the Freeboota trait and would mean my remaining 2 heavy support slots would be filled with mek gunz.

I've also been wanting to run a deathskulls brigade, with kommandos filling the elite slots and deff koptas filling the fast attack slots. This can clash with the previous idea as mek gunz are the best choice for satisfiyng the heavy support slots. I could slap in KMB deff dreads into that brigade to run both detachments together but I'm not sold on the value of deff dreads. The primary motivator for running this brigade is I'll be playing a tourney that runs maelstrom missions, my view is that kommandos and deff koptas will provide me with effective tools for responding to the RNG of drawing objectives from a deck.

 some bloke wrote:
I'm currently pondering an entirely non-competitive fun list to bring to a casual game, soon as I'm done building it :

Spoiler:

Vanguard Detachment
Kff mek (index)
Mek
Mek
Mek

Superheavy detachment:
Stompa

Superheavy detachment
Stompa

2002 points for 2 stompas and 4Cp to spend. Meks will walk between stompas to ensure they're not the closest model and then jump in one if the other dies. Figure if I can clear enough anti-tank turn 1 they might have a chance, and with 2 things to deploy, going first is almost a given

My other thought is a trio of kill burstas with a unit in each, again for near guaranteeing turn one - you can even tellyport one!

A+, I too am running a silly list in a casual game next week. It's:


I haven't settled on a klan yet. I know Bad Moonz will offer me a nice buff but I'm a huge fan of deathskulls and freebootas so leaning towards one of those instead. It is a fluff game after all.

 Quackzo wrote:
A+, I too am running a silly list in a casual game next week. It's:

Spoiler:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Orks) [88 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Clan Kultur: No Clan

Detachment CP [3CP]

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Stompa Mob

+ Lord of War +

Gargantuan Squiggoth [21 PL, 428pts]: 3x Big Shoota, 2x Big Zzappa, Huge Tusks, 2x Twin Big Shoota

Kill Tank [15 PL, 442pts]: Bursta Kannon, Grot Riggers, Reinforced Ram, Twin Big Shoota, 2x Twin Big Shoota

Kustom Stompa [52 PL, 1,130pts]: Belly Gun, 3x Big Shoota, Deffkannon and Supa-Gatler, Lifta-Droppa, Mork's One, Skorcha, Stompa Mob Character, 5x Supa-Rokkit, Tezdrek's Stompa Power Field, The Gaze of Mork, Twin Big Shoota, Warlord

++ Total: [88 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

I haven't settled on a klan yet. I know Bad Moonz will offer me a nice buff but I'm a huge fan of deathskulls and freebootas so leaning towards one of those instead. It is a fluff game after all.

looks like fun, but perhaps a waste for transport & howdah rules - sadly there's nothing to drop in there to make room for transported units!
For klan culture I might even consider snakebites for the 6+++, as there will be a lot of wounds there to lose and a lot of multi-damage weapons to tank. 6+++ is way better than 6++ for massive models, especially as it allows you to use your existing saves already (when you can). KFF and snakebites would be pretty survivable. rerolling 1 hit/wound/damage dice per unit is good for MSU but less good for big models with umpteen guns. making it through to another turn, even by just one wound, will be much more firepower increase than rerolling a dice. Plus, playing with 3 big models for longer is better!

I've another list which might even border on competitive:



going from memory but it's something like that. 5 tanks on the field, lots of dakka, and effective charging with mortal wounds and what have you.

Running it bloodaxe so that I can either sit back and have cover or disengage and still shoot/charge. Don't want to lose the effectiveness of my army to falling back!

The potential certainty of smashas going up is why i havnt bothered to kitbash any.
I want them, i have 1 traktor lol. But no idea how theyre changing that unit, and if they do it wrong they could royally screw mek gunz over in general. GW isnt exactly known for carefully nerfing things.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The potential certainty of smashas going up is why i havnt bothered to kitbash any.
I want them, i have 1 traktor lol. But no idea how theyre changing that unit, and if they do it wrong they could royally screw mek gunz over in general. GW isnt exactly known for carefully nerfing things.

It depends on how much is the new cost of the unit. At the moment 31ppm is very undercosted but the much more efficient KMKs are 60 points and no one brings them to competitive games as they look overcosted. It would be shameful if Smashas becomes more expensive than 40 points and probably lists than field 12 would just have 9-10 instead which isn't a big deal. Even at 40ppm Smasha Gunz would be ok and good enough to justify 10ish of them in a list.

I think mek gunz should be re-worked completely into 60-90ppm models, keeping the current durability but gaining much more damage output. Nothing should cost less points than dollars/euro/pounds.

I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.

at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.

if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.

Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?

I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.

KMKs are overpriced though.

Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.

mhalko1 wrote:
I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.

at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.

if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.

Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?

I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.

I think you're going the wrong unit with green tide here.

Current Ork lists are *fine* against most of the non-marine meta. So what we're trying to do is adjust to marines specifically.

Boyz are bad against marines. Between Auspex scan punishing deep strike (tellyporta / Da Jump), infiltrators zoning you out (creating effectively a bubble of non-charge zones, as you have to deploy out of 12"), thunderfire cannons screwing your movement, advancing, and charges, and the general killiness of the army, you're spamming a unit marines loves to deal with. 240 boyz would take them a while, but you also basically have nothing on your backline.

SSAG is always worth it. It's basically 2 SAGs in one, and with shoot twice, 4 SAGs in one, for 80 or 84 points and 1 CP. Yes please. If you were going to cut units out, it would be normal SAGs, not the SSAG.

Now, if you instead did 300 grots plus 3 SAGs, you've got 860 points left to flesh out the rest of the army. I think that's *a lot* more powerful. You could get an entire battery of Mek Gunz to go along with this and then some. Boyz are not going to do much work against marines. Grots die in droves, but they are so cheap and so good at grabbing / holding objectives, that it doesn't matter.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
KMKs are overpriced though.

Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.

Biggest problem of KMK I find is the 36" range. Somehow any other Mekgun can reach 48". Mek guns model screams long range suport. 36" in a static model is not good enough.

That combined with lack of kultures affecting it is the main reason it shouldnt be that high.
Technically in a vacuum its right. 45pts is 5x KMBs, but 12" more range. Factor in the random shots, its only a couple points overpriced.

But the only thing that uses it has less rules than the things that use KMBs and is a static gun instead of a mobile fortress. Even the Mork's KMZ i wouldnt be a fan of if he had heavy penalities, and that thing averages 7 shots for me.

Not to mention you need 5 boys (20+ strong mob) to just kill one single primaris marine, without banner. 20 attacks, 13 hits, 6 or 7 wounds, 2 wounds on average go through. So you’re not killing much with what will survive the poster boys’ shooting phase. It gets far worse vs aggressors and other gravis dudes

imagine the power creep if they gave choppas +1 AP, even if it was only on the charge.
Be about as bad as giving marines +1AP and +1 Attack.

tulun wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.

at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.

if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.

Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?

I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.

I think you're going the wrong unit with green tide here.

Current Ork lists are *fine* against most of the non-marine meta. So what we're trying to do is adjust to marines specifically.


Boyz are bad against marines. Between Auspex scan punishing deep strike (tellyporta / Da Jump), infiltrators zoning you out (creating effectively a bubble of non-charge zones, as you have to deploy out of 12"), thunderfire cannons screwing your movement, advancing, and charges, and the general killiness of the army, you're spamming a unit marines loves to deal with. 240 boyz would take them a while, but you also basically have nothing on your backline.

SSAG is always worth it. It's basically 2 SAGs in one, and with shoot twice, 4 SAGs in one, for 80 or 84 points and 1 CP. Yes please. If you were going to cut units out, it would be normal SAGs, not the SSAG.

Now, if you instead did 300 grots plus 3 SAGs, you've got 860 points left to flesh out the rest of the army. I think that's *a lot* more powerful. You could get an entire battery of Mek Gunz to go along with this and then some. Boyz are not going to do much work against marines. Grots die in droves, but they are so cheap and so good at grabbing / holding objectives, that it doesn't matter.

I own about 30 grots enough to min a battalion for CP. Let's not get anything confused for new players reading the thread. yes grots are green. but they are not a greentide. We shouldn't mix that up in case of confusion. I see myself already getting terms mixed up. Greentide is boys and spamming them en masse. now if we are running large groups of grots to be effective against marines thats fine but I was asking if 240 boys which I do own would be able to effectively dent marines. and how it would affect the army if they aren't running primaris and just standard tac marines. My local players have primaris specialty units but generally run tac squads as their troops.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
imagine the power creep if they gave choppas +1 AP, even if it was only on the charge.
Be about as bad as giving marines +1AP and +1 Attack.

Imagines if Goffs got that, they might become a viable culture, instead of their rather meh exploding 6s. We got plenty of attacks, they just don't punch through.

addnid wrote:
Not to mention you need 5 boys (20+ strong mob) to just kill one single primaris marine, without banner. 20 attacks, 13 hits, 6 or 7 wounds, 2 wounds on average go through. So you’re not killing much with what will survive the poster boys’ shooting phase. It gets far worse vs aggressors and other gravis dudes

Spot on. I genuinely believe this is what will start showing up once people catch on -- Grots vs marines are less than half the cost and might be more surviveable as a boy PER POINT to their shooting. I'm not even sure a 4 PPM grot bump affects this calculus.

I think we're going to enter a world where the key to winning competitive games will be spending 10-12 CP on shoot twice on the SSAG and having it carry the game, along with our obsec grots.

If that is a world we are entering for solo tournaments then I am glad I have other armies to use until that world goes away, and leave another world open (one where boyz are good again).