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Yeah, I doubt many gaming groups will care (until an exploit pops up).

I wouldn't expect to see Legends units allowed in any official tournaments that aren't specifically for Legends matches.

At the bottom of the page:

"A word to the wise, however – these profiles will not be curated as part of the annual points review, and as such aren’t really intended for use in competitive play (unless, you know, you want to organise an event where Legends are welcome)."

tulun wrote:

gungo wrote:
We seriously caught a break with them even making the warboss on bike a legal FW model...

The big Mek w kff and ghaz are hopefully at least 2 new models we get....

But honestly we did well with legends and even got some updated rules...

I’m still kinda annoyed the kommandos with big Choppa isn’t allow they still sell the FW model!

The only models I have that are basically gone now and can’t be repurposed (outside of 2nd edition models) are the old buggies and traks. If they make a new ghaz model I can still use the old one as a mega armor nob it’s only marginally bigger then the current mega armor nobs.

Kommando Nobs can take Big Choppa or Choppa now, as well as up to 2 Big SHootas / rokkits / Burnas. Check the data sheets in legends

Sorry I meant competitively and updated regularly instead of being earmarked as discontinued. While using legends are cool for the first few months it’s going to get continuously out of date rules wise. The big choppa kommando is essentially squatted.

Don’t think it will be such a big issue. It’s not like GW have a reputation for finely balanced rules to uphold

Given the whimsical nature of their points systems, will anyone notice if a few more units are overcosted?

Legends status will not prevent the use of old buggies, big guns etc in the vast majority of games - just, possibly, in tournaments.

Like you can use 6 datasheets and 4 detachments outside tournaments? After all those too are organized play suggestions. Not core rules.

 Emicrania wrote:
Wait a second, the datasheet are gone legend.

The wargear is left, which means we can still take kmb on koptas and burna on Kommandos?

With the institution of legends, the GW index books are officially no longer a valid source for rules. Legend wargear options are on the bottom of the documents.

Anything that's neither in Legends nor in a Codex/FAQ/PA/FW index is dead and gone now. I don't think that happened for any orks things though.

Though in typical GW fashion they forgot to either put in rules index is dead or remove flowchart from rulebook faq :lol:

tneva82 wrote:
Like you can use 6 datasheets and 4 detachments outside tournaments? After all those too are organized play suggestions. Not core rules.

Both improve casual play experience though. I seriously doubt legends will be the same.

Ok, well maybe is about time than they give the kommandoz scouting. It has no sense that they can DS instead and taking away the nob alternative equipment and the burna, they are officially useless

So if I want to use a Warboss on Warbike in my games can I still use the Index datasheet?

Until GW provides another one for the FW model, yes.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

tulun wrote:

addnid wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".

10 less would have made them on par with koptas. Sadly...

Biker boyz would have needed like an 6 point decrease at least.

Oh well, at least like it was said Deff skull dreads with triple kmB and a cc weapon is now quite good. That and gitz and some of the buggies enable lists with low model count. It’s gonna look real good too

I honestly think several buggies and Flash Gitz will go into the “green” tier list. The drops have made them likely competitive. Deff dread setup with 2-3 guns is probably a bump as well. Ork stuff seems to often be fine rules wise but not properly pointed.

I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.

I was making a list like that before the points drops because I was designing a fluffy/fun list that was supposed to mimick a Mad Max style. This also happened with my Daemons of Slaanesh... where I got them painted, no one played them... then BAM, new release and I look like a trendy hipster. lol

Jokes aside, I'm excited that my army will be able to fit more buggies/mech in!

I think all the buggies are quite good with the points drop... except the Squigbuggy still. I still think it just doesn't fit any particular role well? Unless I am missing something? The Snazzwagon is good anti-infantry but it's also good for running up and ramming things and exploding semi-on purpose to do some damage. KBB is a better version of that minus the suicidal tendency. Obviously the Scrapjet and Shokkjump were already good and just got better.

I want to pick it up because it's a cool model... I'm just not sure.

I also think boyz are in a rather bad place (but PA may give them something). We will have to see if a mechanized list with light vehicules dreads and gitz can stand take the firepower. I can see it’s Offensive and Mobility potential, I just doubt the resilience of it. We will see !

I'm actually excited to build a new mechanized list. Throw some Buggies and Koptas in there, tuck a couple Dreadz into a Tellyporta (or not), maybe even run some Kanz just for the lulz. It's a good time to be a mechanized Ork lover.

Wanna test this list for 2000p

- warboss, weirdboy, meKFF

- 60 boyz, 30 gretch

- 10 nobz (mix), painboy, tankbustas

- trukk, battlewagon

- 10 smashgunz

- 3 kans

- 3 deffkoptas

Going a mix between foot and mechanical, tankbustas in BW and nobz in TRUKK, I think it can be cool, and still got 100 points left, I could add a deffdread with 4 saws or smth

Even compact lists are supposed to in spoilers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

addnid wrote:
I also think boyz are in a rather bad place (but PA may give them something). We will have to see if a mechanized list with light vehicules dreads and gitz can stand take the firepower. I can see it’s Offensive and Mobility potential, I just doubt the resilience of it. We will see !

A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.

When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.

@Jid: you think Koptas could do the same for mechanized lists? They seem quick and dangerous enough to fill the same role as Boyz, but they may not be durable enough for it.

As for the list: mixing mech and infantry is usually a bad idea. Everyone brings ways to handle both, so you're giving your opponent prime targets for all their guns. I tend to focus on one or the other when list building, so my opponent's AA has no good targets against my infantry list and vice versa.

Koptas and Mek Gunz are kind of the exception to this, because they're in this weird middle ground where they work in both kinds of lists.

Bikes can, if you make them Kult of Speed - I did just that in my battle report and it worked really well. Just don't waste a CP on exhaust cloud if you do.

Koptas have too few models and to little attacks (and no nob) to make them dangerous or survive moral phases. In my experience, they are a harassing unit which pesters armor with their rokkits and ties down units in combat which struggle with their statline, mostly vehicles and light infantry (I once had one kopta keep an entire squad of sisters busy for all game).
Because of this, I'm not exactly a fan of twin shoota koptas, as they basically lose their means to effectively harass stuff.

In general, ork mech is a lot of fun and can definitely take on other casual armies. I'm not sure if the price drops are enough to catapult them into competitive territory though, because those buggies really die fast and struggly to deny area due to the basically non-existent melee capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad news for competitive players - LVO now enforces rebasing to newest base size.

 Jidmah wrote:


A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.

When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.

Couldn’t you achieve this with Grots? In fact, because you can get 2.33 models per boy, it might be even better?

The problem is that Grots are 1) WAY easier to get rid of than Boyz (low T and low Morale), and you can easily lose 2 or 3 Gretchin for every boy you would have lost. And 2) they are not a threat to, well, anything. They got a single shot S3 pistol and a single S2 attack. Even 30 Gretchin will struggle to remove ANYTHING from the board, while 30 Boyz are threatening to everything short of a LoW.

Fair point on the Bikers vs Koptas, Jid.

An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm aware, as can be seen from the rest of my post that you presumably failed to read;

Aren't you a ray of sunshine...

Vineheart01 wrote:MABoss technically never had a model. It was only Ghaz.
They could have easily just stuck a new head in there and it would have been fine though.

My question about the new Mek with KFF is does he have any wargear options, or did they do another static loadout bullcrap because technically the original model has a choppa (wrench with an edge) and no variations? Mine is kitbashed to have a KMB....

Or just have him as a basic entry like how Yriel is also cloned into the Craftworld codex as a generic glaive wielding Autarch.

tulun wrote:

Have people tried like 4x KMB badmoons? You get a KMB at 20 points each under that platform. About as cheap as we can get them .
81 points for that seems good?

I ran a Freebooterz one (just took the MWs on the chin) a couple weeks ago and reazlied I should have had him next to my SSAG Mek to heal. Vs the Shadowsword he's a huge threat and got prioitized over everything else after a couple bracket drops on the Baneblade. However I used to run one from the 3rd ed book so I'm fielding it based on historical fun more than it being the best competitive option.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.

When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.

Couldn’t you achieve this with Grots? In fact, because you can get 2.33 models per boy, it might be even better?

Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.

 flandarz wrote:
The problem is that Grots are 1) WAY easier to get rid of than Boyz (low T and low Morale), and you can easily lose 2 or 3 Gretchin for every boy you would have lost. And 2) they are not a threat to, well, anything. They got a single shot S3 pistol and a single S2 attack. Even 30 Gretchin will struggle to remove ANYTHING from the board, while 30 Boyz are threatening to everything short of a LoW.

I think the point is they aren't *actually* a threat. It feels like they should be, but their main usefulness is against light-medium infantry. They aren't really a threat to vehicles (even with a klaw), and heavy infantry slaughter them with impunity (try charging aggressors and see how that goes).
And its 70 grots if you have 30 boys.

So defensively, the difference between the two is this:

T2 vs T4
Boys have better morale, especially if they retain a high model count.
Grots gets 2.33x more wounds vs Boys.

Offensively, of course, boys trounce Grots. But if you don't care about this, you're overpaying for it.

The morale issue -- killing 20 or so boys is not difficult for most armies, and without support, they will definitely start to run away. You sort of need to keep both by a Warboss (runt herd works for grots, if desired) if you want them to keep them around, unless all your boys are staying together. But if they are, they aren't spreading out.

If the purpose of our troops is to occupy space and be roadblocks for our real stuff in the backline, it seems to me Grots are just better. The main issue is morale, but I think that's relatively easy to circumvent and cheap, if you really just lean into the strategy. Boys suffer from this too, as they are often isolated.

Greentide is legitimately good, but you are often paying 5 CP for the privilege (2 for auto pass morale, 3 for greentide).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.

I guess my major question is, if Boys aren't actually a threat, do you care if your Grots charge at all, or even if they don't kill stuff, survive just enough to tag? They are roadblocks, take up space / screen, and get obsec. Grot blasters aren't great, but can be a 3+ to hit if your grots are in a 20+ mob. It's not nothing. It's just not CC.

I wonder if we are overpaying for Boys offensively capabilities. If Nobs + Klaws were in a better place, this conversation may be different.

Boyz are a legitimate threat against anything T7 and 3+, or worse. Even if you only get 15 of the 20+ into CC, you're looking at 45 attacks (Slugga Boyz), 30 hits, 10 Wounds (vs T5-7), and 3.33 damage (vs 3+ Save). They don't necessarily NEED to kill the target, but being able to deal 3 damage against one of your worst targets, while only getting half a Mob into CC, is something your opponent would need to consider and play around.

Grots, on the other hand, threaten nothing except other Grots. Too few attacks/shots, too poor Strength, and BS/WS is mediocre at best, even with 20+ models.

Yes, Gretchin are better at defending our own backline, but we were talking about that. We were discussing the way Boyz threaten an opponent's backfield and keep their forces in a "blob", and Boyz do this far better than Gretchin ever will.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.

I guess my major question is, if Boys aren't actually a threat, do you care if your Grots charge at all, or even if they don't kill stuff, survive just enough to tag? They are roadblocks, take up space / screen, and get obsec. Grot blasters aren't great, but can be a 3+ to hit if your grots are in a 20+ mob. It's not nothing. It's just not CC.

I wonder if we are overpaying for Boys offensively capabilities. If Nobs + Klaws were in a better place, this conversation may be different.

I never said boyz are not a threat, I said their job is not killing things. They are actually very threatening to things that are sitting inside the screen - they can mess up expensive elite units, troops holding objectives, characters and tie down multiple shooting units and fight twice or replenish their numbers if necessary, so it's in the best interest of your opponent to prevent that from happening.
They wont be doing that, because your opponent will be screening and blasting them apart - but forcing him to play your game has a value that can't be measured in averages.

As for gretchin, the chance to roll 8" or less on your charge is a 72.22% chance - it's a complete waste of da jump to even try to charge with gretchin from deep strike.

 flandarz wrote:
Boyz are a legitimate threat against anything T7 and 3+, or worse. Even if you only get 15 of the 20+ into CC, you're looking at 45 attacks (Slugga Boyz), 30 hits, 10 Wounds (vs T5-7), and 3.33 damage (vs 3+ Save). They don't necessarily NEED to kill the target, but being able to deal 3 damage against one of your worst targets, while only getting half a Mob into CC, is something your opponent would need to consider and play around.

Grots, on the other hand, threaten nothing except other Grots. Too few attacks/shots, too poor Strength, and BS/WS is mediocre at best, even with 20+ models.

Yes, Gretchin are better at defending our own backline, but we were talking about that. We were discussing the way Boyz threaten an opponent's backfield and keep their forces in a "blob", and Boyz do this far better than Gretchin ever will.

Grot shooting is probably as good or better point for point than shoota boys actually if the mob is 20+ against a lot of targets (3+ to hit, 4+ or 5+ to wound). The issue is just getting the shots in range (can't advance and shoot, 12" range). But that's really besides the point, as it's more incidental.

If you're using the Boys as a thrust into their deployment zone, sure, you might want to pay the 4 points per model for their offensive power. I think for holding our backline / contesting objectives in side zones, grots are probably better. But I think we might agree on that point? There are other units you can use to do that, though.

I, personally, will probably try to field a single unit of Shoota Boys in my more competitive style lists, but no more, as a beefier roadblock that can thrust a bit in. I can probably keep that one under KFF, a painboy, and warboss, and then not need to use the morale strat for Greentide if I wish. Beyond that, I'd probably just take more grots and toys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


I never said boyz are not a threat, I said their job is not killing things. They are actually very threatening to things that are sitting inside the screen - they can mess up expensive elite units, troops holding objectives, characters and tie down multiple shooting units and fight twice or replenish their numbers if necessary, so it's in the best interest of your opponent to prevent that from happening.
They wont be doing that, because your opponent will be screening and blasting them apart - but forcing him to play your game has a value that can't be measured in averages.

As for gretchin, the chance to roll 8" or less on your charge is a 72.22% chance - it's a complete waste of da jump to even try to charge with gretchin from deep strike.

Boys are better for Da Jump -> charge, no disagreement here.

I think the thrust of the problem with that strategy is that Marines actively discourage deepstrikers (Auspex scan makes you pay for it, Infiltrators prevent a charge altogether). If you face a lot of marines, how are you getting value out of boys if they can't deepstrike and charge very easily?

I think the thrust of my argument is that, if we can't cheat boys in easily vs a common opponent in the meta, and we're mostly using them as backline roadblocks / holding side objectives, it seems like we're overpaying on their offensive capability when they are mostly just catching bullets.

Top placing ork lists use 3 units of evil suns boyz which tellyport, da jump or green tide into your opponent's back field for the reasons I outlined above - you want to restrict their movement. This is exclusively what I was talking about.

I don't think there is a reason to use boyz for any other job, but you need boyz to do that one job for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
I think the thrust of the problem with that strategy is that Marines actively discourage deepstrikers (Auspex scan makes you pay for it, Infiltrators prevent a charge altogether). If you face a lot of marines, how are you getting value out of boys if they can't deepstrike and charge very easily?

You don't actually need to deep strike in order to get the intended effect - you just need to be able to do it.
As for auspex scan? Sure, I'd gladly have them burn 2 CP to shoot at boyz with -1 BS. Unlike their previous codex, marines actually have lots of stratagems that are worse than that.
For the infiltrators - I face them quite regularly, and I must say they are not as bad as they sound. Usually they have only one unit, because they are expensive as sin, and it forces them to castle around them - exactly what I want! In any case, there is usually some place you can deep strike anyways, as their aura doesn't have infinite range. If they move out of cover, just gun them down like any other screen.
If they have more than one unit? Congratulations, he spend tons of points on what's effectively bolter marines.

I think the thrust of my argument is that, if we can't cheat boys in easily vs a common opponent in the meta, and we're mostly using them as backline roadblocks / holding side objectives, it seems like we're overpaying on their offensive capability when they are mostly just catching bullets.

The whole point is to prevent your opponent from freely doing what he wants. Killing is not their priority - if your opponent castles up to hide from boys, he is not scoring objectives and he will lose the game. That's all that matters.

These are interesting points, thanks.

Could we not achieve something similar for less points?

10 grots + 10 nobs w/choppas is 170 points. 175 if you give one a big choppa.

Or is losing the threat of green tide + multi damage weapons ( and I guess theoretically worse morale ) making that less tenable?

I’m sure it would be easy to hide a unit of 10 nobs turn 1

It's important to remember that EVERYONE is kitted out to handle Marines right now, so fielding what are essentially easier-to-kill Marines (which, for some reason, cost MORE) is asking for them to be wiped on T1. Nobz just have a lower value in your games than Boyz.

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that EVERYONE is kitted out to handle Marines right now, so fielding what are essentially easier-to-kill Marines (which, for some reason, cost MORE) is asking for them to be wiped on T1. Nobz just have a lower value in your games than Boyz.

I would say a few things:

1) If they are using their autocannons and the like on my nobs and not my buggies, fine with me.
2) If your main strategy is to Da Jump -> Charge, it seems rather easy to hide 10 nobs behind cover or in a ruin. In cover, they also have a 3+ save.
3) Against 1D anti-infantry weapons, Nobs are better per point / model.
4) Gaining another grot squad has value that has to be considered (or saving even more points if you already have enough troops)

Well, as I mentioned above, it's optimal to either bring mostly infantry or mostly mechanized. If you're bringing Nobz and Buggies, you've just given your opponent optimal targets for all of their guns. So, I'm assuming that if you want to field Grots and Nobz, you're running a primarily infantry list, in which case you'll probably want Boyz AND Grotz. And in comparison to either of those units, Nobz just don't measure up well. Damage 2
with AP is incredibly prevalent, so they die just as quickly as Boyz, but at twice the cost. And in damage output, they don't measure up either (unless you charge them into some light vehicles and give them Big Choppas). They really needed like a 2-3 pt drop to be worth fielding over Boyz.