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IMO, it's a trap on the KBB unless you make sure the target dies, you'll have a shooty unit with next to no melee abilities stuck in combat next turn.

considering its on a 4+ to cause D3 wounds i wouldnt really ever intentionally use that unless the model is at 1W you are charging.
It fails a lot for me. And the buggies arent great at melee so they tend to take damage even if it was just basic troops they charged, unless that 1-2 mortals finished the unit off.

Dont think ive ever seen that spiked ram be important. I wish Trukks had it, i really dont care if they get pummeled in melee lol

It's handy to take out durable targets with low wounds like Vitrix Honor guard, eldar characters or TF cannon tech marines. Outside of that?
Better stay out of charge range if you want to keep that buggy. You really don't want to end up in combat with a couple of marine support characters, they'll murder it.

 Nazrak wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I know a mono-clan buff isn't what a lot of hyper competitive people want but there should be some reason to try and keep everything uniform, even if "soup" isn't really unusual for Orks.

Not a remotely competitive player but this would be dreadful. Ork warbands have comprised Orks from multiple clans since forever.

So you don\t think mono forces exists in fluff as well? If they do they deserve to be on even footing game wise(actually they deserve to be even footing anyway. Balance first).

On terms of "since forever" imperial soup has existed in fluff and in game since forever as well. So let's remove limitation of losing super doctrines by ally as well.

It's important to remember that Ork armies (in the fluff) number in the hundreds of thousands (likely in the millions, if we're being real). When you play the Tabletop, you're just representing a small fraction of that number. It wouldn't be unusual for for a few hundred or so Orkz to all be from the same Kultur in this situation.

So while the warband as a whole might be composed of multiple Kulturz, the little piece that your army represents could easily be all of one "type".

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO, it's a trap on the KBB unless you make sure the target dies, you'll have a shooty unit with next to no melee abilities stuck in combat next turn.

Hey, that evil suns exclusive stratagems comes into play.

You could dive a KBB in, flame em, then drive away 16-21”.

To be fair, that Stratagem can only work on one unit per Shooting Phase, and if you're running KBBs, you're probably bringing a few of them.

I agree with Jid: for KBBs you wanna rely mostly on their big gun, and if you can get some Burna shots off and/or use your Ram, more power to ya. But that shouldn't be your primary means of using them. We got plenty of other (better) anti-infantry options without putting the KBBs right into the enemy's face.

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, that Stratagem can only work on one unit per Shooting Phase, and if you're running KBBs, you're probably bringing a few of them.

I agree with Jid: for KBBs you wanna rely mostly on their big gun, and if you can get some Burna shots off and/or use your Ram, more power to ya. But that shouldn't be your primary means of using them. We got plenty of other (better) anti-infantry options without putting the KBBs right into the enemy's face.

I wouldn't say primary use, no. It just becomes more of an option when you can move + advance without penalty (which doesn't hurt your rivet kannon then).

I think I wouldn't go out and say it's bad to make them Deathskulls (in fact, it's probably far more optimal against marines and the like where the Rivet Kannon is gonna carry). This weekend I am facing an Eldar opponent where I think I'd like to threaten squishy pointy ears with my flamers if an opportunity arises. Its far too easy for him to get negative hit modifiers, and he has a lot of expensive, t3 infantry (hello Dark Reapers), where even 8 auto hitting flamers might cause his annoyance / distraction.
I also think they would be great at forcing Rangers off of an objective, where I am normally hitting on 6s from other shooting.

If they were skorchas, or even at -1 AP, I think we'd be having a different convo, of course. I just don't think it's necessarily *bad* to take them as ES and having your buggy be aggressive is necessarily a bad option against the right opponent.

Nah, the rivet cannon blows against marines due to armor saves. It's best at plonking wounds off vehicles, because those have a much harder time gaining cover from terrain. Primaris out of cover a fine targets, but rare.

The thing is when running ES, none of buggies gain much from that. You can't charge after advancing, plus you lose grenade and pistol weapons, and the SJD gets more mortal wounds from both accidentally jumping and not having re-rolls on his gun. Wartrike is fast enough without evil suns if you want to kill it. It did best for me when just hanging out behind the other buggies and shooting its melta at stuff.
In addition, the only buggy that needs that extra movement is the scrapjet since it has short range and lower movement speed than the others - but it also has the nose drill and spiked ram, meaning you actually want to charge with it and then double-dip on the re-rolls.

As for the "threaten expensive T3 infantry" part ... buggies are on the same bases as knights, unless your opponent is completely incompetent, he should have no problem screening you out of charge range of his valuable infantry, which is also out of flamer range. If you flame the screen, that screen will stick to you for the rest of the game - the KBB couldn't fight itself out of a paper bag.
The huge size of those models also makes it hard to use their speed since the first model moved often ends up blocking all others. There is a battle report by me in the corresponding forum where I run ES buggies - it didn't matter for a single one of them.

So bottom line, ES does about a much for buggies as bad moons, blood axes or goff. It does provide some bonus, but none of those can compete with re-rolls and 6++. Making a single 6++ save against a high damage weapon usually means one more buggy alive next turn.
I have tried both evil suns and deff skulls multiple times and In my experience making a buggy list deff skulls is huge jump in power, since you are basically running MSU with big guns, the perfect set-up for deff skulls.
Evil suns is super speedy but you can't make use of that extra speed most of the time. On top of that, you lack killing power to actually remove the things that you need to remove - and for orks killing power is the same as staying power. With deff skulls re-rolls, a KBB can safely be expected to deal 2 damage to a vehicle or kill a 2W model out of cover. Without, it's much less reliable to deal any damage at all.

Have the same feeling and I made the math for scrapjets.
A deffskullz scrapjets has 42% more dmg output than an evil Sun one. And is tougher. A single 6++ can make a big difference.
In meele the scrap jet is about 50% more dmg ouput than an evil Sun one.

It's just output wise 2 deffskull scrapjets are 3 evil Sun ones

 Jidmah wrote:
<SNIP>

As for the "threaten expensive T3 infantry" part ... buggies are on the same bases as knights [...]

While I generally agree with your sentiment in this post the buggies are on 150mm oval while the knights are on 170mm ovals. That sounds like a miniscule difference but is a bit bigger than what it sounds like, so they're not quite that unwieldy.

As an aside, I do rank the burnas a bit higher than people here I guess. I usually use the KBBs to push up the flanks and bully some poor objective holders (meaning basic guardsmen or min squads of brimstones etc) while potshotting more valuable targets with the rivet kannon. If you roll hot (hardi har) with the burnas and help delete a significant portion of the target then pushing in with the spiked ram usually works out okay, but it is a shame it doesn't have the same CC profile as the SJD. All the buggies sans the megatrakk are probably no brainer better as deffskullz but the KBB isn't a bad choice as ES.

As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.

Honestly with the cost of a KBB having it in melee with a low mobility unit that can't kill them in one round is a bit of a win to be honest. if you can tie up something something that costs more than the KBB itself, while also taking off a handful of wounds here and there you're probably getting some good value. KBB aren't a big killer in a lot of match ups, but their speed, durability, cost and area of influence are all fairly decent.Plonking down 9 on the table may not let you clear the board but it's sure as hell going to irritate the opponent. I'm pushing towards a mechanized freebootaz list and find them wonderful for target saturation, area denial and occasionally doing something fun and silly. Like using the dark eldar incubi character as a speed bump while shunting other units off objectives.

PiñaColada wrote:
As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.

Koptas already advance 20" though, plus I usually run the Kult of Speed specialist detachment for T1 warbiker charges - which allows me to do the same with koptas for just one more CP.

CP is something I haven't solved yet for buggies though. The only things I really need regularly is SSAG (2CP) and move twice stratagem (3CP), all others are very situational. Sometimes I sit on 7 CP until T4, sometimes I just blow them on something like orks is never beaten and then am out of CP when I need them. Currently I'm inclined to go down to 1 battalion+outrider to just bring more vehicles instead of gretchin/HQ tax for CP I can't really use in a meaningful way.

Sure, but evil sunz deffkoptas move 46" with <fly> if they use drive-by krumpin'. That's a significant difference from 20" for a singular CP (23" assuming you were already ES), 20" is fast but T1 only gets you midboard whereas 46" puts them basically whereever, either to actually exploit mistakes or just force your opponent to think about it. I've gotten a few cheeky warlord kills by flying behind my opponents entire screen T2/3/4 and just kopta-rokkited him to death. It also enables a deffkopta unit to jump-shoot-jump basically, which certainly has its uses. Neither of those uses will come up every game but it's a neat trick to have IMO.

I'm shocked to hear an ork player moving to to sub 10CP though, I just find that even in the lists I thought wouldn't be CP-thirsty I still manage to burn through a brigades worth in the first or second round..

PiñaColada wrote:

While I generally agree with your sentiment in this post the buggies are on 150mm oval while the knights are on 170mm ovals. That sounds like a miniscule difference but is a bit bigger than what it sounds like, so they're not quite that unwieldy.

As an aside, I do rank the burnas a bit higher than people here I guess. I usually use the KBBs to push up the flanks and bully some poor objective holders (meaning basic guardsmen or min squads of brimstones etc) while potshotting more valuable targets with the rivet kannon. If you roll hot (hardi har) with the burnas and help delete a significant portion of the target then pushing in with the spiked ram usually works out okay, but it is a shame it doesn't have the same CC profile as the SJD. All the buggies sans the megatrakk are probably no brainer better as deffskullz but the KBB isn't a bad choice as ES.

As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.

No, I'm with you, 100%. I think people are undervaluing auto hitting here a bit, and Burnas are plenty fine against t3 models. I think I'll use them to nice effect against some rangers tomorrow, or trying to threaten a hiding farseer / warlock. I have a small detachment which I can make ES (only will affect a weirdboy and some mek guns otherwise), and I'll see if I like it.
You can be aggressive with them with DS as well, I just think I might want that extra threat range against a typically very mobile army.

TBH, if you're only taking the KBB for use with the Rivet Kannon, you probably should just pony up the 20 points for the Megatrakk. It averages 1 less Rokkit attack (one which can hit on a 4+), and also gets 12 big shootas shots (half of which hit on 4s), has +1 wounds, and is a much bigger beast in CC. I'm not sure the rivet kannon alone is worth 80 points if people think the burnas are basically just a waste of time.

The KBB and MSJ have different targets. The former should be targetting infantry, elites, and maybe light vehicles, while the latter is gonna be looking for Heavies to take out.

I don't think the Burnas are useless. I just think they're situational. If I can get close to a chaff unit without putting it in too much risk, I'll use the Burnas. Alternatively, they make a good detergent for infantry charges, since they auto-hit on Overwatch too.

Rokkits can take out elites and light vehicles better than the rivet kannon though? Better strength, higher Damage. And the Big Shootas can target lighter infantry.

Why not drop 20 points for a gun that kills better (other than range), has longer range anti light infantry, is better in CC, has a better wound profile, if the burnas are a big *shrug*?

Seems to be an argument that the vehicle does all that much comparatively, unless you really can't spare 20 points.

Well, the skrapjet has a much smaller effective range on its rokkits compared to the KBB and its rivet kannon. But I agree, if you're basically never planning to use those burnas then I'd much rather take the skrapjet.

I like the KBB because it's fast, cheap and has the ability to annoy/threaten several different targets but in a vacuum probably won't be the focal point of your opponents firepower. With their relatively low profile they're fairly easy to hide out of LoS from at least a significant portion of your opponents firepower whilst still punishing a few targets. Yeah they'll die easily to real AT firepower or hard hitting CC units, so the risk of overextending is always there but there are plenty of objective holders etc that don't appreciate being hit with ~8 s4 shots.

Driving it straight into the enemy is most likely suicide, but considering the main gun is 36" range I often find it pretty easy to put them on straggler duty around the edges of the board.

Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.

And, again, I'm not saying the Burnas are bad.

The problem with Burnas is that we aren't short on Str 4 -AP hits. It's like doubling down on the stuff we need least.

actually one of the bigshootas the Scrapjet uses IS grotgunner'd
It was faq'd in, considering its modeled that way to suggest it.

Mild point i know lol

flandarz wrote:Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.

And, again, I'm not saying the Burnas are bad.

It's 6 shots with the rivet kannon, unless you're including the dakkadakka, but then that "almost" procs on 2d3+1 shots anyways so really the difference is a bit smaller than you're making it out to be..

An Actual Englishman wrote:The problem with Burnas is that we aren't short on Str 4 -AP hits. It's like doubling down on the stuff we need least.

That's true, but I still wouldn't argue its useless. Auto-hitting s4 shots are still decent against several targets you don't want to shoot with our real dakka and works as a decent charge deterrent. It's like they've strapped 4 burna boyz in the front and that's worth 40 points,ask GW

 flandarz wrote:
Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.

And, again, I'm not saying the Burnas are bad.

Just to compare.
Scrapjet VS a primaris =
0,77 dmg from 4+ big shoota
0,51 dmg from 5+ big shoota.
Dakka include no deffskullz reroll include
= 1,28 dmg overall with big shoota.
+ 3,44 from rocket kannon ( deffskullz and dakka include)
+ 0,25 from wing missile.
Kbb rivet kannon
With dakka include = 2,07 dmg
2,5with deffskullz and dakka include.


That means in average the rivet cannon does just twice the dmg average than the big shootas from scrapjet.

And vs t7 and 8 the rockets will get far better.

A scrapjet nearly double the dmg ouput from kbb.
It's like 3 scrapjets are 5 kbbs dmg wise.
And scrapjets are far better in meele.
Against t4 Amor 3.
Against Vehikel 3 scrapjets are about 6 kbbs

Both average.

PiñaColada wrote:
Sure, but evil sunz deffkoptas move 46" with <fly> if they use drive-by krumpin'. That's a significant difference from 20" for a singular CP (23" assuming you were already ES), 20" is fast but T1 only gets you midboard whereas 46" puts them basically whereever, either to actually exploit mistakes or just force your opponent to think about it.

I was referring to the turbo-boostas stratagem which allows them to advance 28".

I've gotten a few cheeky warlord kills by flying behind my opponents entire screen T2/3/4 and just kopta-rokkited him to death. It also enables a deffkopta unit to jump-shoot-jump basically, which certainly has its uses. Neither of those uses will come up every game but it's a neat trick to have IMO.

The thing is... deff skull trait always matters every single game, potentially multiple times per turn. In addition, you get a situational stratagem (wreckers) that allows you to take out planes, leviathans, knights and similar annoying vehicles. Heck, you could even put the deff skulls trait on your wartrike and just blast enemy characters in the face with the killa jet and a bunch of boomsticks.
I fail to see a reason to give all that up to what basically boils down to the ability to advance and shoot without penalty. The buggy army does perfectly fine without advancing, all of them have plenty of range and speed to reach pretty much the entire board by T2.

I'm shocked to hear an ork player moving to to sub 10CP though, I just find that even in the lists I thought wouldn't be CP-thirsty I still manage to burn through a brigades worth in the first or second round..

You do? What stratagems are you using? Because I'm constantly flipping through my deck and think "nah" to myself on most of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
No, I'm with you, 100%. I think people are undervaluing auto hitting here a bit, and Burnas are plenty fine against t3 models. I think I'll use them to nice effect against some rangers tomorrow, or trying to threaten a hiding farseer / warlock. I have a small detachment which I can make ES (only will affect a weirdboy and some mek guns otherwise), and I'll see if I like it.
You can be aggressive with them with DS as well, I just think I might want that extra threat range against a typically very mobile army.

What I really don't get is what the real advantage of ES is supposed to be? If you advance, you cannot ram anything and lose the stikkbomb and grot blasta. If you don't advance, we are talking about +1" movement instead re-rolls and a 6++ save.
Even if you are advancing, a deff skulls KBB can do that too, but goes to hitting on 6+ on the rivet cannon but you still get the re-rolls on it. For the one situation in a game where burning a unit is really that important, you could just accept the slightly lower hit rate on the rivet gun.
There hasn't been a single game with death skulls where I thought "I wished I had 1/2" more movement", but every single game with evil suns, I wished for re-rolls to deal more damage.
Evil suns has never allowed be to do something T1 where I couldn't have been without the trait and has never allowed me to do something T2 what I couldn't have done anyways.
Even if you win the game, you lose all your buggies every game. More damage and more durability gives you more time to kill enemy units before you are out of buggies.

TBH, if you're only taking the KBB for use with the Rivet Kannon, you probably should just pony up the 20 points for the Megatrakk. It averages 1 less Rokkit attack (one which can hit on a 4+), and also gets 12 big shootas shots (half of which hit on 4s), has +1 wounds, and is a much bigger beast in CC. I'm not sure the rivet kannon alone is worth 80 points if people think the burnas are basically just a waste of time.

That's apples to oranges. The scrapjet is a completely different unit, it is slower, significantly less range and wants to be in combat - due to that, it simply can't afford to do anything but drive towards the enemy in a straight line. The KBB is for blocking movement, clearing and holding objectives, while still contributing to your game with the rivet gun.
What you are suggesting is kind of like replacing units of boyz with tank bustas. They simply don't have the same job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Well, the skrapjet has a much smaller effective range on its rokkits compared to the KBB and its rivet kannon. But I agree, if you're basically never planning to use those burnas then I'd much rather take the skrapjet.

Sorry, but you two guys are (probably unintentionally) twisting my words here.
I never said I don't plan using those burnas. I said those burnas are not worth dipping into a culture when there is a culture that already massively benefits KBB and the rest of your army. It's very much equivalent to taking goff scrapjets to get extra hits on the nose drill.
Of course I do try to park the KBB next to units to burn/stikkbomb/grotblasta them whenever possible. But I wouldn't give up the extra chance to survive a lascannon hit or take two wounds of a vehicle/kill a primaris to do so.

I like the KBB because it's fast, cheap and has the ability to annoy/threaten several different targets but in a vacuum probably won't be the focal point of your opponents firepower. With their relatively low profile they're fairly easy to hide out of LoS from at least a significant portion of your opponents firepower whilst still punishing a few targets. Yeah they'll die easily to real AT firepower or hard hitting CC units, so the risk of overextending is always there but there are plenty of objective holders etc that don't appreciate being hit with ~8 s4 shots.

Driving it straight into the enemy is most likely suicide, but considering the main gun is 36" range I often find it pretty easy to put them on straggler duty around the edges of the board.

100% agree, this is the way to make KBB work.

Question. Do we have access to a warboss on a bike or not? I’m assuming “legends” isn’t legal in any type of organized game.

There is no warboss on bike in Legends

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Question. Do we have access to a warboss on a bike or not? I’m assuming “legends” isn’t legal in any type of organized game.

It's... complicated.

The Warboss on Warbike is listed in the "Forgeworld" part of CA2019, which is kind of accurate, considering that the only official Warboss on Warbike model is this one: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike
So it doesn't need a legend entry and is legal in any event that allows Forgeworld units.

However, the only available Datasheet is in Index: Xenos2, which is out of print and technically was replaced by legends. While there isn't any good reason to not use that datasheet, there isn't actually any defined way to handle this constellation, so talk to your event organizer first and hope for a proper FAQ to clarify this.

Hopefully the CA FAQ contains the datasheet for Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and that they add the datasheet for Warboss on Warbike to the FW Index FAQ.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Question. Do we have access to a warboss on a bike or not? I’m assuming “legends” isn’t legal in any type of organized game.

It's... complicated.

The Warboss on Warbike is listed in the "Forgeworld" part of CA2019, which is kind of accurate, considering that the only official Warboss on Warbike model is this one: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike
So it doesn't need a legend entry and is legal in any event that allows Forgeworld units.

However, the only available Datasheet is in Index: Xenos2, which is out of print and technically was replaced by legends. While there isn't any good reason to not use that datasheet, there isn't actually any defined way to handle this constellation, so talk to your event organizer first and hope for a proper FAQ to clarify this.

Hopefully the CA FAQ contains the datasheet for Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and that they add the datasheet for Warboss on Warbike to the FW Index FAQ.

isnt the FW biker boss a named character though? Its not like theres an entry in the FW book that says "Warboss on a bike" right?

Tired of pushing boys across the board so trying to put a mechanized list together. THinking:

DeffSkullz Brigade:
4 Scrapjets
2 KBB
3 DeffDreads
6ish MekGunz
2 Trikes

BadMoonz Patrol
Max Bikes
30 boys

 Dr.Duck wrote:
isnt the FW biker boss a named character though? Its not like theres an entry in the FW book that says "Warboss on a bike" right?

It is, but the have been selling him as "Warboss on Warbike" for years now.
In Chapter Approved 2019 (or more accurately, the points book), Warboss on Warbike is listed as a new entry in the forgeworld section, in addition to Zardsnark.

Tired of pushing boys across the board so trying to put a mechanized list together. THinking:

Spoiler:

DeffSkullz Brigade:
4 Scrapjets
2 KBB
3 DeffDreads
6ish MekGunz
2 Trikes

BadMoonz Patrol
Max Bikes
30 boys

You really don't need two wartrikes, as it really doesn't do much for its points. What you do need, however, is a KFF. Otherwise enemy anti-tank will take a heavy toll on your army if you didn't have the chance to remove some yet., as pretty much every anti-tank weapon punches through the buggies' 4+ save. Morkanaut, Wazbomm and Big Mek on bike all work well with buggies. The foot mek works if you have no other option.
I would also suggest running the warbikes in a kult of speed specialist detachment so you can charge T1 with them, a warboss on warbike with killa klaw is a good support for them.
You also might want to re-arrange the army so you can make the other detachment a dread mob. SSAG is a nice addition to pretty much any ork army, and shooting twice with one of the deff dreads (or a naut) is a great option to have.

Isnt a big mek on a bike also legends?