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It ain't no thing if you only field a single Dread. Otherwise, the others are probably gonna get gunned down in the next turn. Which is why I suggest the 3 KMB loadout for DS and the 1 Klaw, 2 Saw, and 1 KMB for ES.

 flandarz wrote:
@tulun: did you account for the increased charge chance with Evil Sunz? 6 attacks that are nearly guaranteed to get into CC are gonna deal more damage than 4 attacks with like a 50% chance.

Edit: my suggestion for Dreadz is that, if you're using them as ES, go with Klaw, Saw, Saw, and 1 KMB. If you're going with DS, equip them with 1 Klaw and 3 KMB.

72% is far from quaranteed alas

Normal charge with individual rerolls is like 50-60% without ramming speed. You’ll make loads of them. ( basically, ere we go is really good).

And you’ll get shot out anyway with the joys of falling back. You can’t keep the unit locked in combat if they don’t wanna be there.

I usually load two in the tellyporta. Fitting 3 in between screens is hard anyway. One is guaranteed in with ramming speed and other has a decent chance.

It works really well. ES version is pricier (CC weapons are expensive) and the KMB really shines with rerolls, not so much without.

Does anyone have a handle on the optimum size of defkopta units for playing Maelstrom games? Are singles ever a good idea for these?

9" charge with rerolls is 47.8%. Still good, considering the normal is 27.8%, but obviously worse than a 73% chance.

Basically, if you wanna compare DS 2 Klaw/2 KMB and ES Klaw/2 Saw/KMB, reduce the CC end result of the DS Dread by 1/2 and the ES Dread by 1/4th.

Also bear in mind that dropping Dreadz out of Tellyporta and using Ramming Speed is already eating 4 CP. If you're running DS, you're probably better off saving those 2 CP (I know how much you hate using CP inefficiently), taking another KMB, and banking on dealing most of your damage at range than in CC (really, you're giving up 1 CC attack for another KMB shot. Why are you not doing this if you're Deathskullz?). If you're going ES, you also don't need to rely as heavily on Ramming Speed, because you have a good chance to get in. Again, you can save yourself 2 CP, and with a decent chance to get into CC, you can take the "better" CC load-out.

Or, take 3 Dreadz, two with a ranged load-out and one with a CC load-out, and Ramming Speed the CC Dread while the other two provide support. That works too.

 flandarz wrote:
9" charge with rerolls is 47.8%. Still good, considering the normal is 27.8%, but obviously worse than a 73% chance.

56%. You can keep individual die, remember. It’s only 47% if you always fully reroll both which is a bad idea.

https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/7sfj3r/charging_after_da_jump_the_real_probability/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

Regardless, it's still significantly lower than the ES chance.

 flandarz wrote:
Regardless, it's still significantly lower than the ES chance.

Right.

So, generally people seem to take 2, maybe 3 dreads. I’d say typically 2.

You’re saying I should take an entire detachment of evil suns just to up the chance one of my dreads makes a charge?

I’ll take the chance. And keep rerolls on my plasma.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying if you take DS, you should focus on the KMB where your rerolls do the most good. If you take ES, you should focus on the CC elements where your bonus to Charge does the most good. If you don't field an ES detachment, you're probably best fielding a 3 KMB Dread, rather than going half and half on your CC and Ranged. Especially if you're fielding more than 1 Dread.

 flandarz wrote:
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying if you take DS, you should focus on the KMB where your rerolls do the most good. If you take ES, you should focus on the CC elements where your bonus to Charge does the most good. If you don't field an ES detachment, you're probably best fielding a 3 KMB Dread, rather than going half and half on your CC and Ranged. Especially if you're fielding more than 1 Dread.

Ah, no, I don't agree.

So the great thing about the Mixed, DS Dread (2 CC weapons, 2 KMB) is that its *actually* the rough equivalent to the full CC ES one in combat. I can guarantee one in for 2 CP (which you wanna do anyway for the mortal wounds).

Deff Dreads are distraction carnifexes anyway -- and they do it incredibly well. Just potent enough to be annoying, but in the grand scheme of things, probably don't swing the battle. You probably don't really wanna go with more than 2, as the extra points for the 3rd isn't necessarily doing much beyond what the 1st and 2nd one are doing.
The nice thing about fielding 2 is actually some tech against Auspex scan / Forewarned / (etc). They can only choose one to shoot if they do so, and the other healthy one can freely Ramming speed in the face of a target you want tagged / smashed up.

Either way, I wanna tellyport them in your face and charge. Going down to 3 attacks actually makes it pretty weak imo, even with rerolls. I can still plink 2 plasma shots at a juicy vehicle somewhere with their range, especially when I choose the deployment.

That 3rd KMB shot also makes me way more likely to overheat.

1) it's only the rough equivalent if you use the Ramming Speed Strat, which means the equivalency falls off after you take that second model.

2) it's still not a guarantee for 2 CP. It's just incredibly likely. And the MWs aren't why you use the Strat. Seriously, it's only a D3 MWs. That's a single Smite. You use Ramming Speed to improve your chances to get into CC.

3) if you're already planning to use Ramming Speed, then you should be taking a CC load-out where your far superior WS can be brought to bear. Bring your mixed load-out on Dread 2, that you ain't using the Strat on (or better yet, bring a load-out where you can deal significant damage even if you fail a roughly 50% charge).

4) a third Dread will give you approximately the same value as the second one. Not necessary to eat an Auspex Scan, but gives another 8 T7 Wounds and takes up board presence and provides threat. Because of the 6" rule, you can also place it away from the other two and have it perform a difference task entirely (like sitting on an Objective and shooting at anything that gets within 24"). The problem with the third (or fourth or whatever) Dread isn't about getting value from them, but rather finding a place for them on the board and still be able to charge the enemy. If you take a ranged load-out for them, it becomes a lot easier for them to perform for ya.

5) losing that 4th attack means you lose an average of 0.75 damage of so, which isn't THAT much weaker. And it bumps your average Ranged damage by about the same (accounting for the charge failure chance, and assuming this is Dread 2).

6) sure, you got a 16.7% higher chance of overheating. But this is a Dread. It has two states. 1: at full health. 2: dead and exploded. Taking 1 MW before your opponent blows it out of the water isn't going to do much to hurt ya.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.

Well, you don't really want any big shootas whatsoever, unless they are mandatory on a unit with other great guns (nauts, buggies). So even at 30 points, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

As for rokkit koptas, they have been rock(it) solid in my deff skulls buggy lists. Just make sure to keep them near a unit of warbikers, boyz or a warboss to mitigate their morale weakness.


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 JimOnMars wrote:
Does anyone have a handle on the optimum size of defkopta units for playing Maelstrom games? Are singles ever a good idea for these?

Only if you are trying to fill a brigade. In my experience a single one is not durable enough to actually make use of their decent melee profile, which isn't terrible at all. Even when trying to tie something up like a squad of sisters or guardians, those might accidentally kill a single one. Haven't tried units of 3 yet, but a unit of five has done me great service in to games so far.


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@deff dread discussion: flandarz, I think you are underestimating the value of 24" range and double-dipping in deff skulls re-rolls.
If a melee dread fails its charge (which I constantly do, despite ramming speed), those points and CP are gone without impact, while the KMB dread at least tends to hit one shot, even if it fails the charge.

With dreads you really want to catch something vulnerable, meaning you are looking for opening behind enemy lines - fitting 3 dreads in there is rarely doable.

Last, but not least, dropping from 4 attacks to 3 is quite a big issue. You lose the ability to squish most characters reliably, are unable to force moral tests on most armies and have a zero chance of taking out a medium sized vehicle. 4 CCW + 2 KMB really is the sweet spot where the dread is actually good at both tasks.

Are competitive players taking Dreads at all? They're not something I've seen very often. Certainly not at the top tables unless my memory fails me.

They used to, but then were pushed out by gorkanauts which then in turn were pushed out by MANz. All three basically fill the same role, but none are consistent enough for top tables.
I remember reading a post by Nick Nanavati where he discusses Deff Dread tactica. But as we all now, he never won anything with orks.

In general "top tables" seem to be closed for orks, the reason why I'm no longer posting top placements is not for the lack of me checking for them - orks are simply unable to handle the top marine builds.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Does anybody know of the Sisters' Penitent engine is comparable on size to a Deaf Dread? From the suggestions here I like giving dreads a go and these models with an ork bolted onto them would be ace!

I played a friend with the new SoB box set and the engine was smaller than a deff dredd, about killa kan size but much taller. It could be done, but it'd look puny next to another deff dread.


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 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.

Well, you don't really want any big shootas whatsoever, unless they are mandatory on a unit with other great guns (nauts, buggies). So even at 30 points, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

As for rokkit koptas, they have been rock(it) solid in my deff skulls buggy lists. Just make sure to keep them near a unit of warbikers, boyz or a warboss to mitigate their morale weakness.


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 JimOnMars wrote:
Does anyone have a handle on the optimum size of defkopta units for playing Maelstrom games? Are singles ever a good idea for these?

Only if you are trying to fill a brigade. In my experience a single one is not durable enough to actually make use of their decent melee profile, which isn't terrible at all. Even when trying to tie something up like a squad of sisters or guardians, those might accidentally kill a single one. Haven't tried units of 3 yet, but a unit of five has done me great service in to games so far.

I'd agree with this, I've used them singly with rokits and DS, and they're very handy to fill in slots to make a Brigade. In a recent ITC game the were very useful in helping me score recon every turn.
If you're allowed Legends then the KMB is a no-brainer actually making it cheaper. If not then rokkits or shootas depending on the role you want for them.

Now then Burnas got a prize reduction, I have been thinking on running them inside a Chinork Warkopta. They have a formidable threat range of 30’’ with there flamer. Appreciate if someone can give me some comments on this!

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Are we next on the chopping block for PA, right ?

PA? Is that the thing where they release more marine models?

Exactly that

P[rimaris]A[pocalypse].

Nora wrote:
Now then Burnas got a prize reduction, I have been thinking on running them inside a Chinork Warkopta. They have a formidable threat range of 30’’ with there flamer. Appreciate if someone can give me some comments on this!

My only comment on this would be, "do the math". If you feel like you'll often have targets that worry about ~30 S4 hits a lot, it might work, but I know it doesn't for me.


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 Emicrania wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Are we next on the chopping block for PA, right ?

PA? Is that the thing where they release more marine models?

Exactly that

P[rimaris]A[pocalypse].

"No muckin' about" includes not whining about marines. Feel free to do that in any thread created by Xenomancer.

Burna boys are still meh. The point reduction is nice, and if you perma face guardsman and cultists they may have a place. But VS everything else it's lost points

Burnas excel at hurting something orks already hurt stupid reliably.
A 30man squad of Shootaboyz does about as much damage as a squad of Burnas, and takes twice the shots to remove...and burnas are still not exactly "cheap"

And the range....the range pretty much means those burnas will NOT do anything turn1, cannot tellyport and attack, and thus are limited to a transport that isnt exactly tough to kill.
Even if they do hit something they probably wont do it more than once since theyre so easily removed.
They technically are a bigger threat too so they'll get attention. 31 S4 AP2 attacks can cut through things pretty quick if allowed to charge. I doubt i'll ever, ever see burnas in a melee since therye wayyyyy too squishy.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Burnas excel at hurting something orks already hurt stupid reliably.
A 30man squad of Shootaboyz does about as much damage as a squad of Burnas, and takes twice the shots to remove...and burnas are still not exactly "cheap"

And the range....the range pretty much means those burnas will NOT do anything turn1, cannot tellyport and attack, and thus are limited to a transport that isnt exactly tough to kill.
Even if they do hit something they probably wont do it more than once since theyre so easily removed.
They technically are a bigger threat too so they'll get attention. 31 S4 AP2 attacks can cut through things pretty quick if allowed to charge. I doubt i'll ever, ever see burnas in a melee since therye wayyyyy too squishy.

Range isn't issue with kopta at least. Over 30" threat range. Bigger than flash gits.

Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though

tneva82 wrote:
Range isn't issue with kopta at least. Over 30" threat range. Bigger than flash gits.

Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though

"Flamers are anti-air" is a meme at best. Since you are wounding on 5s and then need to get past armor and possibly spirit stones, you are looking at ~220 points for a suicide unit that will do 2-4 damage in most of your games. You can have five rokkit koptas for those points and use your choice of moar dakka or uncontrolled bursts on them for a similar result. If target is not a hemlock, you can even charge afterwards.

IMO the best passengers for a chinork are tank bustas.

The issue is tagt iyu need a transport that cost points.
Just take shoota boys for them and you got more dmg ouput more footprint so for what use burna boys?

If you have legends access, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t wanna do a mix of rokkits and KMB if you’re running deff koptas as death skulls.

You can take advantage of the damage reroll and save 15 points per model. They’ll also be hunting similar targets.

Seems worth swapping out 1-2 in a man 5 Kopta squad.


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Best spot for Burnas was in kommando squads. 2 as a free upgrade is sweet.

Otherwise naw. They are too expensive. At least kommandos infiltrate for free, and Stormboyz fly and can deep strike. If you’re gonna pay extra, get something more useful.

 Jidmah wrote:
"No muckin' about" includes not whining about marines. Feel free to do that in any thread created by Xenomancer.

Bloody Savage.

Good points on Dreads Jid. I didn't think they were considered competitive right now.

tulun wrote:
If you have legends access, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t wanna do a mix of rokkits and KMB if you’re running deff koptas as death skulls.

You can take advantage of the damage reroll and save 15 points per model. They’ll also be hunting similar targets.

Seems worth swapping out 1-2 in a man 5 Kopta squad.

Mostly because KMB only shoots once and rokkits shoot twice. In my opinion, if I'm already committing 100 points worth of bodies and CP to shooting something, I might as well make it as shooty as possible.
Napkin math says that a KMB kopta gives me one shot per 29 points invested, a rokkit kopta gives me a rokkit for every 22 points I pay. Since I'm usually running buggies, a naut and warbikers with them, they tend to get a lot of mileage out of those extra rokkits.

 Jidmah wrote:

Mostly because KMB only shoots once and rokkits shoot twice. In my opinion, if I'm already committing 100 points worth of bodies and CP to shooting something, I might as well make it as shooty as possible.
Napkin math says that a KMB kopta gives me one shot per 29 points invested, a rokkit kopta gives me a rokkit for every 22 points I pay. Since I'm usually running buggies, a naut and warbikers with them, they tend to get a lot of mileage out of those extra rokkits.

It's cheaper per shot, for sure.

I think it's worth considering, though. I'd say you'd do 1 or 2. Scrimping 30 points is basically a mek gun or 15 points is a kill saw upgrade somewhere. Mathhammer I bet it's actually pretty close, because of the bonus AP and Damage.

I also see plenty of wave serpents, so the extra damage potential of the KMB is well worth it to try to get around their field.

I would say both are completely valid, though. I actually have KMBs magnetized on the side of a couple Deff Koptas so it's a really easy swap out.


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tneva82 wrote:


Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though

Honestly, the Big Trakk w/ Supa Skorcha would probably be more annoying to planes than Burnas. Make it Deathskulls, give it Wreckers for the meme (wounds CHE on a 3+ then lol), and its solid transport for Flash Gitz.

I think in reality, the best things to deal with Eldar hover tanks / planes are:

1) SSAG (more dakka, shoot twice)
2) Trakor Kannons
3) Tankbustas w/ More Dakka, Showin' off (tbh, even tankbustas without more dakka on average hit ~33% of the time... rerolls are awesome).
4) Dragstas if they don't stack -3 to hit.
5) Smite the bastards.
6) Assault them. Wave Serpents are a bitch to shoot, but completely fall apart if you charge them. CHE and the like are trickier, but I'm sure you could actually do okay with Stormboyz + wreckers stratagem.

I still don't know how to play flash gitz, maybe we can see someone playing them in LVO

tulun wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.

I honestly think with their point drop they might be approaching green. I think they are wholly solid. The fly keyword is also really important.

I’ll probably give this squad a whirl next time I play:

5X Deff koptas
3 with rockets
2 with plasma

I have legends access. Clocks in at 190 points, plasma is premium with death skulls reroll, and it’s a great target for long uncontrolled bursts.]

Plasma?

Anyways, I think they have great potential, especially if you were trying to fill in a Brigade Detachment.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

Plasma?

Anyways, I think they have great potential, especially if you were trying to fill in a Brigade Detachment.

If you are allowed legends, your koptas can have a KMB for 29 points total, 15 points cheaper than the twin rokkit one.

I have mine magnetized on the side of a Rokkit one, so it's easy for me to swap.

What Jid and I were discussing above is whether you'd go with 5 rokkits, or a combo Rokkit/KMB squad (3/2, 4/1) as Deathskulls. I think both would work out quite well.