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Mek Gunz are wonderful. They have just enough wounds that your opponent has to commit significant resources to killing them, but not so many that they're not likely to waste a bunch of shots overkilling them. And if you throw in a big mek with a KFF (I wouldn't do it just for the guns, but if you have one anyway to shield from alpha strike and that sort of thing), you can even heal up a gun they don't overkill, and 1/3 of wounding shots will be saved, so they REALLY have to be inefficient about overkilling stuff or they're pretty much back to square 1 next turn.

If you have your enemy shooting your mek gunz, you are probably on the path to a victory, almost no matter what the weapon is. I can't really think of anything that's efficient at shooting them, except maybe a T5-6 weapon with -1 or -2AP and 1 damage and not too many shots.

Unfortunately, GW knows how wondeful they are, which is why they cost $42. Or maybe they're wonderful because they cost $42. Chicken and the egg and all that...

I think we covered this before, but Freebooterz Chinork with Tankbustas embarked attacking a Flyer should make it possible to have 3+ Tankbustas who rerolls 1s and 2s to hit. Which is kinda gross.

With long uncontrolled bursts?

4+ with full rerolls is already pretty nuts.

Yes. Just get ALL the bonuses. If you can manage to keep the Chinork from moving and get both bonuses, you could even have... 2+ Flashgitz.

And then go back to like 5+ or something like that if its an Eldar one.

Yup. *sigh*

Kebabcito wrote:
My bad for not playing warbikes and bretonia, we are so bad at shooting, jesus necron warriors needs a nerf right now

Necron warriors need nerf? Okay it's official. You aren't being serious at all

I think that was a sarcastic response to my comment that less than a handful of decent to good shooting units (most of which rely on Stratagem and Kultur gimmicks to even be worth fielding) does not mean we "shoot better than we fight". Definitely failed to perform it's intended "gotcha", though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference.

Just as an FYI Jid - Evil Sunz Scrapjets (and all other ES Buggies, for that matter) move an extra 3" (+2" because 'Speed Freaks' and + 1" advance). I've found the extra movement to be very fun, particularly when we don't suffer a penalty for moving and firing Assault weapons.

Huh, I missed that ES get an extra +1 on speed freeks. That's would have actually been quite relevant on warbikers a couple of times.

Easily done dude.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The bonus movement from ES scrapjets is way more than 2" - you get 2" just for movement, an extra +1 to advances and charges, and most importantly, you can advance and shoot without crippling your damage potential. So really in most situations you're looking at a realistic move of 10 for deffskulls scrapjets, vs 13-19 for ES ones. That's an average of 50% greater speed. Plus you get drive-by krumpin', so in fact if you spend 1 CP your move is 25-31", giving you potentially three times the speed...and the last 12 inches of that after you shoot, so you can pop out, shoot, and pop back out of LOS or even potentially straight-up range; lots of stuff with 24 inch weapons isn't going to be able to close back on their turn if you just backpedal.

Is it enough to justify taking them? I dunno. But it's a much bigger advantage than people here are giving it credit for.

As I said, I'm talking from experience. I have run five games with ES buggies and found that more movement isn't actually something that army needs. Yes, you do drive more inches, but it rarely matters. None of the buggies want to charge T1 and more often than not moving an extra 3"+d6 inches doesn't change what you can shoot.
I switched to deff skulls and suddenly the army went from "fun army that drives all over the place" to something that my opponents are genuinely afraid of. The re-rolls to hit and wound add up an all those buggies and the 6++ saves come up all the time, as basically all anti-tank weapons are AP-3 and even a single save usually means that you have one more buggy on the board.

Bluntly speaking, having a culture that affects all your models all the time is much more valuable than having a culture might make a difference on one or two models. ES is a great culture for things arriving from deep strike or T1 chargers, but not for gunboats driving up the board.

Yep. It's great irony of ork kultures that the slower you are the more you want to be evil sun.

Quick question about tellyporting a transport.
If I put a battle waggon with two units inside in the tellyporta, I need to pay 6 CP for that, right?

A friend of mine said that costs just 2 CP all together, which sounds too good to be true.
Please tell me I have not wasted CP all the time.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Mek Gunz are wonderful. They have just enough wounds that your opponent has to commit significant resources to killing them, but not so many that they're not likely to waste a bunch of shots overkilling them. And if you throw in a big mek with a KFF (I wouldn't do it just for the guns, but if you have one anyway to shield from alpha strike and that sort of thing), you can even heal up a gun they don't overkill, and 1/3 of wounding shots will be saved, so they REALLY have to be inefficient about overkilling stuff or they're pretty much back to square 1 next turn.

If you have your enemy shooting your mek gunz, you are probably on the path to a victory, almost no matter what the weapon is. I can't really think of anything that's efficient at shooting them, except maybe a T5-6 weapon with -1 or -2AP and 1 damage and not too many shots.

Unfortunately, GW knows how wondeful they are, which is why they cost $42. Or maybe they're wonderful because they cost $42. Chicken and the egg and all that...

Doing the trukkonversion, you can get 4 mek gunz for 1 mek+trukk at a "decent" price (I'm not sure decent price even exist in warhammer).

Of course, that's a conversion, with all that implies

In the other hand, in ITC format, I use to have some problems with the "kill more" fact

 Grotrebel wrote:
Quick question about tellyporting a transport.
If I put a battle waggon with two units inside in the tellyporta, I need to pay 6 CP for that, right?

A friend of mine said that costs just 2 CP all together, which sounds too good to be true.
Please tell me I have not wasted CP all the time.

It's 2 CP to put whole thing. So yeah you have been wasting

 Jidmah wrote:
Bluntly speaking, having a culture that affects all your models all the time is much more valuable than having a culture might make a difference on one or two models. ES is a great culture for things arriving from deep strike or T1 chargers, but not for gunboats driving up the board.

I always charge my buggies in, excluding perhaps the SJD. It's not to kill stuff, it's so I can't be shot as easily. I've managed to lock many an opponent in their deployment zone all game thanks to the extra speed but admittedly I'm not facing particularly competitive opponents.

tneva82 wrote:
Yep. It's great irony of ork kultures that the slower you are the more you want to be evil sun.

Absolutely.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Quick question about tellyporting a transport.
If I put a battle waggon with two units inside in the tellyporta, I need to pay 6 CP for that, right?

A friend of mine said that costs just 2 CP all together, which sounds too good to be true.
Please tell me I have not wasted CP all the time.

2 CP mate.

Greetings, fellow mushrooms. Another one of those "I'm trying to get back into 40K with Orks, what do I need to know?" incoming.

First things first: what books do I need these days? Rules and codex are a given, but there are quite a few expansions out there - which ones are mandatory?

I have plenty of models around, and do not want to play "competetively". I understand that "just paint what you want" is a reasoable approach for my case. Still: are there any "traps" to avoid in terms of units that are terribad even in friendly environments? Is there anything I really must have?

Some models I do not own, namely the new buggies not in the "Speed Freeks", the Gorka/Morkanaut and Flashgitz. Everything else (including the new buggies) is either available or could be converted.

Thanks in advance!

 Darnok wrote:
First things first: what books do I need these days? Rules and codex are a given, but there are quite a few expansions out there - which ones are mandatory?

Mandatory is just the codex. Basic rules are available from GW for free, or you can get one of the fun-sized ones from one of the million of starter boxes. Do not buy the BRB, I haven't touched mine in over a year.
Chapter approved provides updates for point values, but also haven't touched that since I bought it besides helping someone out on this thread. I suggest building lists using battlescribe. That's how its done these days.
Vigilus Defiant is and optional add-on with some additional goodies for Dread Mobs, Speed Freeks and Blitz Brigade. Most of the rules in here can be found in battlescribe or online though.

I have plenty of models around, and do not want to play "competetively". I understand that "just paint what you want" is a reasoable approach for my case. Still: are there any "traps" to avoid in terms of units that are terribad even in friendly environments? Is there anything I really must have?

Check the list in the first post and the guide linked there, it should give you a rough idea. Avoid units that are red or worse. In general, you should decide between a mechanized/speed freeks approach or lots of footslogging units, they don't mesh well.
Must have would be at least one weird boy, a SAG and 3x gretchin. The weird boy with its power Da Jump is one of the most powerful assets we have. The SAG can take a relic that upgrades it twice as many shots and does a lot of heavily lifting in terms of anti-tank shooting. Gretchin are just needed to generate CP, feel free to ad more boyz and gretchin.
Depending on how long you were gone, this must be odd for you, as all thise used to be joke units for many editions.

Some models I do not own, namely the new buggies not in the "Speed Freeks", the Gorka/Morkanaut and Flashgitz. Everything else (including the new buggies) is either available or could be converted.

Thanks in advance!

Is there any specific clan you want to go for?
With the models available you should aim for three battalions looking something like this:
HQ (total 6):
1 Warboss (preferably on bike). Make sure he gets the killa klaw relic, otherwise he hits as if he were armed with a wet towel.
1-2 weird boyz
1-3 SAG, one taking the souped-up shokka
0-3 KFF Meks or Kaptin Badrukk

Troops (total 9):
3-9 10 gretchin
0-6 30 boyz, nob with PK or BC, 3 tank busta bombs. Pretty much any combination of choppa/shoota is fine, mix them to your taste.
The HQ bring utility, the troops a huge pile of CP to burn on our awesome stratagems. Boyz should be brought to the enemy via Da Jump or Tellyport. Do not walk them across the board.
If you lack models, you can do reasonable well with just two battalions, but don't bring more troops than you need. In this edition, it's toyz before boyz.

The dakka:
15 tank bustas or 15 lootas or 10 flash gits. Grot shields can protect just one unit, so pick one. Then just throw as many "shoot better" stratagems their way as you can and chose targets wisely.

Moar dakka:
Best here would be smasha guns, but they are insanely expensive per points. In my experience, any combination of planes, buggies, nauts, koptas or the big trakk can also fill this role more or less successful.

Stompy surprize:
Bring 5-10 MANz or 1-2 Deff Dreads or a Gorkanaut or a Bonebreaka and put them into the tellyport. Wait for a good opening to tellyport them in and ruin someone's day.
Alternatively you can field large units of storm boyz and coordinate them with Da Jumped/Tellyported boyz.

Based on the previous comment;
Which would be best as a general purpose shooting unit out of tankbustas, lootas and flash gitz?

Assuming equal points of each, and Deathskulls kulture.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Based on the previous comment;
Which would be best as a general purpose shooting unit out of tankbustas, lootas and flash gitz?

Assuming equal points of each, and Deathskulls kulture.

Yes.

Well you can't answer that.
VS wich targets?
Just ouput whise?

IMHO, the most generic and useful-in-all-situations unit of shooting in orkz is lootas. Flash gitz are not easy to play due to his low range + heavy weapon combination, mek gunz are nice but give a lot of kills in ITC, sags are too tanks oriented. Taking into account that they are only -1 AP, I think they're decent in a lot of scenarios.

I only have troubles playing lootas against agents of vect

As example 15 tank bustas killing average 5 primaris Marines.
10 flash gitz wit ammo runtz about 6

10 flash gitz are a bit cheaper have more wounds and better amor and better meele.


Well against a t8 vehicle it looks totaly different and so on.

Lootaz BTW are totaly crap exept bad moon double shoot grot shield more dakka. Lots cp spending



In general I would say flash gitz, on his own they work best without tricks strats cps and so on.

To elaborate on my previous answer: lootaz, tank bustas and flash gits are really close if used properly. We have seen people do well in tournament with all of them, and all have guns that work well against pretty much everything.

The major difference between them is how you play them. Lootas stay in your deployment zone, protected by gretchin, flash gits usually need a transport to get somewhere T1 and then stand still for the rest of the game, tank bustas tellyport in, cause massive damage and then die.
You really need to find out which ones fit your playstyle best - if in doubt, just use the models you have.

When playing tournaments, I've find some troubles playing tankbustas, because they are extremely tanky oriented (obviously) and I faced some teams with 0 vehicles and I lost like 400 points in something that would throw 15 rockets at 5's.

Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.

I think smashers and flash gitz can be more useful in tournaments because they are more generic, and tankbustas are very good in leagues or matches where you have some idea about what you'll face.

When you go LVO, you know the 90% of the team will be marines, because people will maximise his chance to win and will tryhard as hell, so you can go tankbustas. But in a local meta? In my local meta, there are a lot of drukhari, demons, T'au and custodes, are tankbustas that useful in middle-competitive levels? not sure

At least, that's what happened to me last 2 month.

Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.

I realise now that I didn't actually give much info in my question.

My meta is typically fairly infantry-heavy Primaris and Death Guard at the moment.

I'm looking for general damage output against reasonably tough infantry and the occasional vehicle and reliability in doing that damage.

I'm seeing that lootas and flash gitz seem to be the front runners. I'll do some play testing. Thanks guys.

Ye. Vs marine infantry and dg flash gitz would be the best choice.
Lootaz struggle a bit because auf 1 ap and massiv cp investment to be effektiv

Kebabcito wrote:
Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.
[...]
Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.

Huh, seems odd to me that lootas work for you, but tank bustas don't. Both kind of suck when infantry models with good saves (read: marines) are involved. I rarely find myself with a lack of target for them though unless I'm facing eldar jetbike spam.

Ye same here lootaz are good VS Aeldari and vs tau too just because of lotsa shoots, but that's it.
A fully buffed loota bad moon with double shoot more dakka kills average 7 primaris in cover or 10 without.
And you 100% need grots and grot shield. So 6 or more cp for killing about 9 primaris wtf no ty
And 300 + points needed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An unbuffed flash git for 300 ( trukk +10 gitz) kills about 6 when hitting on 5+ without more dakka.
Hitting on 4+ 8-9 without buffs.

And have massiv better defensiv with 10 trukk wounds 3/4+ save ( loot it) or 2+ in cover.

And they can eat squishy things in meele of needed with 30 attacks Str5

Lootas are the generic, easy to use option...but their gun is a kind of weird profile that works against almost anything but doesn't excel against anything common - T6-7 even wound count models with bad saves are not very common. You have to spend 4CP and run them bad moons to make them really delete stuff, so that becomes a huge chunk of your CP budget. You also need at least 20 grots and the CP to shield them, so you're potentially looking at 5CP/turn for max performance, meaning most of your CP will be tied up in a single unit that, while dangerous, isn't actually THAT dangerous.

Tankbustas are obscene against vehicles, but will underperform for their points vs anything that doesn't have the vehicle keyword. They're pretty easy to use - the short range isn't such a problem since they're assault weapons. They work well in trukks or in the tellyporta. They also suffer slightly from the fact that orks have lots of other good anti-vehicle options (mek gunz, buggies, wazboms, warboss with relic klaw, SSAG, etc etc). Tankbustas are competitive with all of these, but they're not so clearly better that you'd auto-take them instead of a selection of the other options. So they fulfill the role they fulfill very well, but it's not a role the army is exactly short on.

Flash gitz have an awesome gun that will absolutely annihilate primaris infantry (or anything else T5 or below), but they're obscenely expensive, and get annihilated themselves by anything that annihilates primaris infantry...which, given how unbalanced the meta is, everybody you face is likely to have lots of. Their short range means sitting back behind a grot shield is difficult logistically. You pay a lot of points for their combat prowess, but you really don't want them in combat if you can possibly help it. The 2W profile is awesome against weapons that don't do more than 1 damage, but you really don't want them getting shot in the first place. Their klan kulture is obscenely good when it works, but making it work requires a lot of effort that tends to take away from the rest of your army (if you really want to make it work, mek gunz are probably the way to go to trigger it, seeing as the only thing they lose by taking them freebooterz is the ability to be healed by your big meks of other kultures). They can shoot vehicles if they need to, and do pretty well against T6 ones, but they'll struggle against T7, and you really don't want them doing that unless there is no elite infantry to delete. These guys have potentially the highest reward, but also the highest risk, and are the hardest to use.