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I mean, the very fresh leaks of primaris ragnar has 7 (!) base attacks and get 3 instead of the standard 1 when shock assault is applicable. At S+2 AP-4 D2.

Imagine a relic big choppa getting us somewhere to that territory

 deffrekka wrote:
Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.

I agree with everything but this - all those examples are agile and skilled fighters, who are the one kind of enemy that regularly defeat warbosses in fluff, they are the paper to their rock.

In previous edition, those models usually had higher initiative than warbosses and often killed them before they struck, even if they were just wielding power swords. A warboss bouncing off a captain or autarch is perfectly reasonable in my book.

The problem is if they didnt kill the boss first before, the boss killed them.
And what didnt outmaneuver the boss, the boss killed.

Nothing is afraid of a boss right now. Hell the Killaklaw has to perfect hit/wound to kill even a silly Trukk right now...where before he'd just look at the dang thing and it would die.

Unfortunately all this rabble isnt gonna get fixed anytime soon since we're talking dataslate updates to fix the issue, not just cost changes. Until a codex 2.0 or a new multi-part boss kit, not happening.

 Jidmah wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.

I agree with everything but this - all those examples are agile and skilled fighters, who are the one kind of enemy that regularly defeat warbosses in fluff, they are the paper to their rock.

In previous edition, those models usually had higher initiative than warbosses and often killed them before they struck, even if they were just wielding power swords. A warboss bouncing off a captain or autarch is perfectly reasonable in my book.

I never used to loose my Warboss back in 4th and 5th vs Autarchs and Captains. The Autarch would wound on 6s unless it had a Scorpions Claw (unwieldy) or a Executioner (Str of 4 so wounding on 5s). The same was said with Captains unless they had a Relic Blade (costed a lot) a Powerfist (unwieldy) or a Poweraxe (Unwieldy and only wounding on 4s). Whilst a Warboss was slower at Iniatitive 4 (but unwieldy with the Powerklaw), if he hit and they failed 1 save, they were red paste due to Instant Death. The Warboss back then also had the 5++ and then would have usually been in a Nobz squad with a Painboy and Waaagh! Banner. I never had a bad challenge with my Warboss back then, he could walk out of a duel with those characters and still have more for anything else. It was more a Chaos Lord with Daemonic Weapons that would smash the Warboss or a Daemon Prince, not a Captain or an Autarch. An Archon however, he was pretty mean in combat. Power swords werent killing Warbosses when they were wounding on 6s or 5s, unless your opponent was super lucky to just blast you with 3 wounds off the bat and you didnt make atleast 1 Cybork body save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The problem is if they didnt kill the boss first before, the boss killed them.
And what didnt outmaneuver the boss, the boss killed.

Nothing is afraid of a boss right now. Hell the Killaklaw has to perfect hit/wound to kill even a silly Trukk right now...where before he'd just look at the dang thing and it would die.

Unfortunately all this rabble isnt gonna get fixed anytime soon since we're talking dataslate updates to fix the issue, not just cost changes. Until a codex 2.0 or a new multi-part boss kit, not happening.

Exactly, I agree with all of what Vineheart says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im listening to Valraks stream and it looks like Ragnar gets 10 ATTACKS ON THE CHARGE/CHARGED/INTERVENED.

That is just silly, Ghaz better have something like this or more as thats pure stupidity, especially with Rragnar being str 6 ap 4 and 2 damage a pop...

As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.

I'll never deny my boss to fight the biggest 'un in the enemy's army. A tactic which rarely pans out...

what constitutes the boss having an advantage?

Regular infantry even elite flavor have more numbers than he has attacks, and the elite flavor can kill him with 1 dude remaining most of the time.
Vehicles already mentioned he cant kill on his own anymore, just beat up a bit.
Other characters that can melee at all have an invul or are even meaner in melee.
Things that suck at melee often have enough overwatch to be a severe pain to him or his boyz/vehicle hes charging with.

Even with killaklaw, what exactly is he going after that isnt a suicide mission?

A regular nob with pk is as dangerous as a boss. Not exactly of course because theres a 1 to hit difference and a 4th attack but the vast cost difference offsets that.

 warhead01 wrote:
As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.

Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!

 deffrekka wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.

Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!

You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.

 warhead01 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.

Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!

You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.

Probably why my Warboss always dies this edition, I still throw him against other character like the time of old. Its what his fluff is all about and he has 2 boss poles full of claimed warlords that he has slain in challenges. Hopefully PA will give the Orkz something and not just it being Space Wolf focused which I am betting it will be.

New banner on Warhammer Community “The Wolf vs The Beast! Come back March 9th”

10 attacks?

And he’s currently 141 points. Woof.

Any bets he’d be able to wreck new ghaz in combat?

 deffrekka wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.

Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!

You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.

Probably why my Warboss always dies this edition, I still throw him against other character like the time of old. Its what his fluff is all about and he has 2 boss poles full of claimed warlords that he has slain in challenges. Hopefully PA will give the Orkz something and not just it being Space Wolf focused which I am betting it will be.

Agreed. The Warboss is the real victim here.
The only other "trick" I had was to have the War boss hit a really hard target to do as much damage as possible so the next model up to bat could "steal the glory".
Now days I also Keep a pain boy very close and a banner Nob and who ever else just push these several characters around near each other and something else in a space where they will let each other operate very strongly. situation dependent. One of my lists was a variety of units in trukks operating like that to share buffs and pick where I wanted my fight. When things stopped going my way we just mounted up and rolled out leaving the stuff we were fighting to my mek gun line. Work well, got a good response as well, blew my opponents mind. One of the more enjoyable games this edition. My usual opponent is a cheese monger any time he doesn't have an easy answer it's brilliant. But...My plan...

The poor Warboss has been done dirty ever since 7E codex, Cybork Body going from a 5++ to a 6+++ just seemed like an unfortunate oversight among many, many unfortunate oversights in that codex, but the purging of wargear options to fit existing models of course only made things worse. People have been clamoring for a Ghaz model update for more than a decade but I've always thought that issues with the core of the model line should be addressed before special characters should be a concern, and right now the biggest issue in the Ork line is absolutely our stock HQs.

I haven't played a single game with the codex yet. shortly after it came out I boxed up all my Orks and am only now starting thinking about trying to put a list together and arrange a game.
Not an overly competitive game as my friends are still just getting into 8th for the most part.

Hopefully the game will be this month, if it can be arranged.

 warhead01 wrote:
I haven't played a single game with the codex yet. shortly after it came out I boxed up all my Orks and am only now starting thinking about trying to put a list together and arrange a game.
Not an overly competitive game as my friends are still just getting into 8th for the most part.

Hopefully the game will be this month, if it can be arranged.

I pretty much did that too, I played them with the index, then a couple months when the codex was released but I hated the codex (still do tbh, it's been gutted of any character the previous editions had) but I've gotten back into Orkz this year due to Ghazghkull and PA6.

Orkz are my love but in 8th I cant really stand how they are, out gunned, out stabbed, other armies can horde better and cheaper, and we cant take squadrons of battlewagons but marine, elder, guard can with fire prisms, predators, leman russes, etc.

I wish the Codex was abit like Dark Eldar, where only 2 units are trash (incubi, helions) and you can make a characterful list with anything. Most of 8th I've played Admech and a sprinkling of Dark Eldar. I had a long break from the game as I couldnt stomach it anymore (May last year until January this year).

Everything is dialed up to 11 on the killy scale, but I find Orkz arent on that same playing field bar a few units like Smashaguns, Souped up Shokkas and Flashgits.

It's sad really. I know CA wont redo the codex but hoepfullllyyyyy it's enough to give us options and then CA2020 can cost us correctly (characters, buggies, boys, powerklaws and saws, everything really is too expensive) and actually increase the cost of other armies.

Why are people defending the current warboss?! They're garbage and exist only to do one of 3 things;

1. Suicide killer klaw for cheap(er than bike boss)
2. WAAAAAGGGHHH! For green tide lists.
3. Mitigate morale.

It's a sorry state of affairs and while a warboss losing to an Autarch, Archon or fething Canoness on the charge might be ok for some people it is utterly heinous as far as I'm concerned.

Warbosses should put up a good enough fight to give smash captains and any other melee best stick a run for their money. That is their role in the lore. It used to be their role on the table top.

I agree the Warboss needs and deserves more. Question is whether we'll want to stomach the point increase GW would 100% include with any such buff.

I think I am going to push a lot of shoota boys maybe 90 of them in my upcoming list. I have a few of the new vehicles painted but am loathed to use them. I found my storm boys, I am up to 60 of them and may push that up to 90 very soon. I like a smattering of everything in my for fun lists. Like a gorka morka style list from old 3rd edition battle reports. a core of foot troops supported by the fast stuff and artillery and now days burna bombers.
I just counted up my Manz with kombi Rokits which I want to stick in a list just cause.

Just wish there was a better way to build my own warlord for all the kinds of game play. Don't play in many tournaments usually only 1 every year if I go, out club tournament is usually a good time. So The Index is still fair play for me.
Really just want to terrorize my opponents for a few rounds then get a near loss. Good stuff, loads of fun.
I started trimming my collection down last year I had way too much I was never using any more. 20+ years will do that though.
I'm not sure about New Ghaz but I am looking forward to seeing the model might be one of a handful of thing I add this year but my collection is almost complete.
Really wish we had a strong indirect fire weapon.

Vehicle squadrons would be nice, we can get dreads, artillery and most of the new Vehicles that way but more would be cool. The codex freaked me out because we haven't had a good codex in forevva and that seemed most unnatural.
I think it's a lack of actual ork creativity on the part of GW.

 flandarz wrote:
I agree the Warboss needs and deserves more. Question is whether we'll want to stomach the point increase GW would 100% include with any such buff.

I would. Or at least, maybe just wargear options so you can go cheap or build a proper fighter.

A walking boss can be taken for as little as 78 points. That’s kind of insane given how bad ass they are supposed to be. They shouldn’t be much stronger at that cost...

*supposed to be.

Does not correlate to *is

They are barely cheaper than a SM captain and that SM captain can literally do nothing but stand there and cause more impact to the game than a warboss could ever dream of doing. While still being deadly enough to put the hurt on most things that reach their gunline.

 deffrekka wrote:
I never used to loose my Warboss back in 4th and 5th vs Autarchs and Captains. The Autarch would wound on 6s unless it had a Scorpions Claw (unwieldy) or a Executioner (Str of 4 so wounding on 5s). The same was said with Captains unless they had a Relic Blade (costed a lot) a Powerfist (unwieldy) or a Poweraxe (Unwieldy and only wounding on 4s). Whilst a Warboss was slower at Iniatitive 4 (but unwieldy with the Powerklaw), if he hit and they failed 1 save, they were red paste due to Instant Death. The Warboss back then also had the 5++ and then would have usually been in a Nobz squad with a Painboy and Waaagh! Banner. I never had a bad challenge with my Warboss back then, he could walk out of a duel with those characters and still have more for anything else. It was more a Chaos Lord with Daemonic Weapons that would smash the Warboss or a Daemon Prince, not a Captain or an Autarch. An Archon however, he was pretty mean in combat. Power swords werent killing Warbosses when they were wounding on 6s or 5s, unless your opponent was super lucky to just blast you with 3 wounds off the bat and you didnt make atleast 1 Cybork body save.

I'm 100% sure none of that happened in 4th or 5th, half of the rules you are referencing didn't exist back then
An autarch in that time would be riding a jetbike and sporting a laser lance, making him S6 on the charge, with a bonus attack for holding a pistol. Foot autarchs were considered jokes and could not have either of the weapons you named.
A captain/chapter master usually was equipped with a single lightning claw or a fist to go with a storm shield or a pair of claws. You were only hitting them on 4+ and they had a 3++ or 4++, meaning failing to kill one was easy and they would get to kill you for sure in two rounds of combat. So charging one was basically a coin flip of whether you lose your warboss or not, and thus always a terrible decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Why are people defending the current warboss?! They're garbage and exist only to do one of 3 things;

1. Suicide killer klaw for cheap(er than bike boss)
2. WAAAAAGGGHHH! For green tide lists.
3. Mitigate morale.

It's a sorry state of affairs and while a warboss losing to an Autarch, Archon or fething Canoness on the charge might be ok for some people it is utterly heinous as far as I'm concerned.

Warbosses should put up a good enough fight to give smash captains and any other melee best stick a run for their money. That is their role in the lore. It used to be their role on the table top.

Agree, warbosses suck without the relic right now.

That said, you don't charge beatsticks into characters with 4++ saves, you are wasting powerful attacks and valuable AP on something that's specifically equipped to tank those. That's pretty much like shooting anti-tank at infantry.
Smash captains and daemon princes regularly bounce of autarchs or archons, I see no reason why this should be different for warbosses. The issue is that those characters can just tank those PK hits if the do get through, while a Malific Talons, Thunder Hammers or Daemonic Swords shred them. If PKs would be dealing d6 damage instead of d3, none of those would survive two unsaved wounds.

Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong

 acme2468 wrote:
Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong

When you see how insanely good Intercessors are, why wouldn't you spam them?

I usually field a minimum of like.. 60 grots, so I doubt I'd get outnumbered, but I could see it getting close. 40+ intercessors is legitimately a powerful way to build Spacies.

they fire about as much as we do because they used to all have twinlink weapons (the units that existed before anyway).
Twinlink went from innate reroll to doubleshot. My initial thought was "sweet, so roughly same odds to hit but potential chance to get more hits" and then i saw marines and some others have aura rerolls....so.. marines got double shots for free basically since they were the primary users of twinlinked before.

and GW does not value rerolls of any kind enough, especially reroll to wound i feel like the units that get that just happen to have it, dont feel like they pay a premium for it at all...maybe a pt or two at best.

tulun wrote:

 acme2468 wrote:
Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong

When you see how insanely good Intercessors are, why wouldn't you spam them?

I usually field a minimum of like.. 60 grots, so I doubt I'd get outnumbered, but I could see it getting close. 40+ intercessors is legitimately a powerful way to build Spacies.

Since the Conquest magazine hit Germany, seeing armies with 60 intercessors is not that uncommon. They are decent at shooting about anything, good in combat, fairly durable, cheap to buy and, of course, CP generating troops. And extremely annoying to remove with ork shooting

60 intercessors is kind of a no match for any ork army, bar perhaps a heavy MANZ one ?

That's just half their army though.

The model count of the ork armies I'm currently running is between 80 and 100, depending on whether I bring lootas/tank bustas or not.

yeah marines have been fielding barely less models than orks these days.
And orks are still tissuepaper durable.

and those 60 intercessors have 2 wounds a pop too so even just on wounds they out do us. Used to be around 3 Boys for a Marine, Now is not even 2 with Tacticals and only 2 with Intercessors.