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doesnt have to be all done in the same turn, just saying it can be done.

Literally any proper anti-tank weapons hitting him can take that 4 damage off turn1 really quick. Unless Medisquig is hot and theres nothing to snipe the painboy (which is the ultimate reason i stopped using a painboy is i got sick of not being able to shut down snipers before they got the free kill on a ~70pt Tshirt model) he's gonna be half dead by the time he's close enough to charge at minimum.
Unless you have 0 psyker or assault damage that works against a T7 reliably, he will die pretty quick once he gets close enough to actually do anything.

It's important to note that his reduced profile is really not any worse than his best profile. Trading a point of S and 1" for an extra attack ain't bad.

And 7" is pretty quick for an Ork. Even at his lowest bracket, he's still just as fast as a Boy Blob.

Me? I say let him be the focus of your opponent's firepower so your other vehicles have an easier time of things. He's scary enough to not ignore, and durable enough to take a beating from pretty much anything your opponent throws at him. The best of our other units are only the former. He's essentially a distraction Carnifex in an Orky package.

 flandarz wrote:
I know. How many armies can you list that can deal 4+ Damage to Ghaz a turn? Most damage dealing Psychic Powers require the user to be within 18", so unlikely on turn 1. So to deal over 4 Damage to Ghaz a turn, the enemy has to expose themselves to either him, or the rest of your army. That's why I said that most armies aren't dealing over 4 Wounds to Ghaz a turn.

What opponents or boards do you play on that requires you to be in your opponent's deployment zone to charge ANYTHING he has? And, I assume the rest of your army is just sitting around, since apparently your opponent was able to bring a strong force to bear on Ghaz for 2 turns.

tau or guard strat to kill ghaz...shoot turn 1 ignore after 4 wounds , turn 2 shoot 4 wounds and ignore...or psychic if guard. Turn 3 shoot 4 and ghaz is dead without psychic or overwatch or combat. ghaz can’t even make it into your deployment in 2 turns. He’s slower then a normal boys list...he can’t adv and charge or da jump...


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 flandarz wrote:
It's important to note that his reduced profile is really not any worse than his best profile. Trading a point of S and 1" for an extra attack ain't bad.

And 7" is pretty quick for an Ork. Even at his lowest bracket, he's still just as fast as a Boy Blob.

Me? I say let him be the focus of your opponent's firepower so your other vehicles have an easier time of things. He's scary enough to not ignore, and durable enough to take a beating from pretty much anything your opponent throws at him. The best of our other units are only the former. He's essentially a distraction Carnifex in an Orky package.

he’s slower then a boy blob he can’t adv and charge or da jump

thats really the only bright side to ghaz's profile. He doesnt degrade, more like shifts stats around.
Weakest profile still wounds everything on 3s at worst with 7(+1 if warlord, +2 if Fist of Gork'd) attacks and exploding 6s. Pretty much at any bracket he will delete a knight if Fist of Gork'd, and reliably do some HEAVY damage w/o it.

Fortunately they didnt pull some bull and make his WS degrade. One of the reasons i prefer the Mork over the Gork is the shooting, once it degrades at all its melee is a lot less potent but its shooting is still rude. Yeah gork has some mean shooting too but totally different reasons/targets.

He can't advance and charge, but he can advance without charging. He's literally as quick as a Boy Blob that advanced two turns and then charged (8.5+8.5+9 for charge=26 vs 10.5+7+9=26.5). He's definitely not slower on foot than a Boy unit.

You just listed armies that would take 3 turns to take Ghaz down. If you get first go, then you get to throw him into CC (10.5+10.5+6+9=36). If you don't, all you got to hope for is that your opponent wants one of the Objectives in the middle of the board, or has moved close enough to the Deployment line, which should be most of the time.

I think it's early to say if we can dismiss him without seeing new relics and stratagems, which might influence how he can be used.

But it's a bit disappointing overall. It feels kind of hard to use him properly, which is definitely not true of someone like the G man.

You either have to:
1) invest hard in something like a Goff painboy, which is easily counterable, to slog him.

2) Tellyporta him in and hope he can hit something worth smacking. You also probably don't want to send him in alone, so you will probably need to *heavily* lean into this strategy (IE: multiple Deep Striking units, whatever they are).

I also think leaning into Goffs is probably a bad idea. They still suffer the same issue -- damage is not the problem, its getting there. Unless they get something to help them get there, it's a bit moot imo. Ghaz doesn't do this anymore than a normal Warboss + painboy.

 flandarz wrote:
He can't advance and charge, but he can advance without charging. He's literally as quick as a Boy Blob that advanced two turns and then charged (8.5+8.5+9 for charge=26 vs 10.5+7+9=26.5). He's definitely not slower on foot than a Boy unit.

You just listed armies that would take 3 turns to take Ghaz down. If you get first go, then you get to throw him into CC (10.5+10.5+6+9=36). If you don't, all you got to hope for is that your opponent wants one of the Objectives in the middle of the board, or has moved close enough to the Deployment line, which should be most of the time.

your not getting into assault turn 3 turn 1 is 4 dam min, turn 2 4 dam min, turn 3 he’s dead either by tau overwatch or guard psychic and overwatch . You are correct the only way ghaz gets melee is your opponent goes for a center board objective giving ghaz a target he likely is over killing.

And way to ignoring my point about da jump because it’s not like that is the main psychic power used on boy blobs to allow them to make it into melee.

Also important to note that a Boy Blob also can't advance and charge without an additional Warboss tax. Not saying Ghaz SHOULDN'T be able to do the same, just that you're unintentionally distorting the facts to make Ghaz out to be worse than he is. And things like: "well, if you fight these specific armies" can be easily enough countered with "when you go up against these armies, put him in a Tellyporta". Same really goes for Snipers too. If you know that deploying Ghaz to the table will result in him getting wiped before he reaches anything, then don't do it. Clear the chaff and drop him in afterwards.

Again, I ain't saying Ghaz on foot is the optimal way to play him. I'm saying it can be done, and far more frequently than our pessimistic attitudes might suggest.


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Obviously your opponents always get first turn and always hug the back corner of their deployment zone that's furthest away from you. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and can only hope that they don't have long range weaponry so you can do the same.


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I ignored it because your claim was that Boyz were faster than Ghaz. If you want to use Da Jump for Boyz, then you have to account for Tellyporta for Ghaz, and we're right back in the same place as before.

 flandarz wrote:
Also important to note that a Boy Blob also can't advance and charge without an additional Warboss tax. Not saying Ghaz SHOULDN'T be able to do the same, just that you're unintentionally distorting the facts to make Ghaz out to be worse than he is. And things like: "well, if you fight these specific armies" can be easily enough countered with "when you go up against these armies, put him in a Tellyporta". Same really goes for Snipers too. If you know that deploying Ghaz to the table will result in him getting wiped before he reaches anything, then don't do it. Clear the chaff and drop him in afterwards.

Again, I ain't saying Ghaz on foot is the optimal way to play him. I'm saying it can be done, and far more frequently than our pessimistic attitudes might suggest.


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Obviously your opponents always get first turn and always hug the back corner of their deployment zone that's furthest away from you. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and can only hope that they don't have long range weaponry so you can do the same.


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I ignored it because your claim was that Boyz were faster than Ghaz. If you want to use Da Jump for Boyz, then you have to account for Tellyporta for Ghaz, and we're right back in the same place as before.

Telly porta is the only way to use ghaz and he still taking at least a round of shooting and any psychic powers to the face before overwatch or being charged himself.
My point was ghaz as shown is fluff only you will never see him near any competitve or decent list. I never said he’s the worst thing in game but he’s completely impractical .

Ok, how is he taking a full round of stuff when Tellyporting in? I'm assuming you mean "after he wrecked whatever you sent him at and then it's your opponent's turn", in which case he operates exactly the same as every other Ork unit in the game. Except he has a better chance of surviving all of that than they do.

And, no. It's not the only way to play him. Unless you're unimaginative.

People said the same thing about MANz, and they saw play. And Flash Gitz, and they saw play. And any number of other units across multiple Factions. That's why I say "wait and see how people play him before making your judgements".

Good news is no reason to play Goffs still

Also, I called that thing being four big shootas strapped together

Can Goffs technically do a Dok's tool roll AND the Makari roll? It looks like RAW they can.

There's an FAQ that specifically disallows using more than one FNP.

 flandarz wrote:
Ok, how is he taking a full round of stuff when Tellyporting in? I'm assuming you mean "after he wrecked whatever you sent him at and then it's your opponent's turn", in which case he operates exactly the same as every other Ork unit in the game. Except he has a better chance of surviving all of that than they do.

And, no. It's not the only way to play him. Unless you're unimaginative.

People said the same thing about MANz, and they saw play. And Flash Gitz, and they saw play. And any number of other units across multiple Factions. That's why I say "wait and see how people play him before making your judgements".

he’s about as good at making it into melee as any non evil sun melee unit that teleports in.. less then 50% chance of getting into melee.

You sure have a lot of imagination that’s for sure

Um no one said anything bad about flash gits when our codex came out. If you mean pre-clan buffs they sucked.
Manz also got a massive point reduction why they are decent now.
Not sure what imaginary world your living in now.
Ghaz isn’t Burma boy bad if that makes you feel better

I just recognize past patterns. Take a look at the OP. See where MANz are rated. Then look at the competitive Ork lists being run and note how many include MANz. Same for Flash Gitz. Now, again, with feeling: how about instead of judging the guy before he even hits a table, you give him a chance?

Would it be worth the 4CP it’s cost to tellyport him with some Dreads or a Bonebreaka full of MANZ?

Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.

 flandarz wrote:
I just recognize past patterns. Take a look at the OP. See where MANz are rated. Then look at the competitive Ork lists being run and note how many include MANz. Same for Flash Gitz. Now, again, with feeling: how about instead of judging the guy before he even hits a table, you give him a chance?

You do realize that those units changed since that list and haven’t been updated? Manz had a big points drop for instance. Which is why they popped up recently

 flandarz wrote:
Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.

Not holding my breath bro

 flandarz wrote:
Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.

you do that..ill see you in 9 th edition or read about your local clubs top 4th place winner

 flandarz wrote:
There's an FAQ that specifically disallows using more than one FNP.

Gotcha. Sounded like an oversight.

I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.

He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.

Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.

Again, not going to engage because you're so set on "too bad for competitive" that you're being intractable. I never even made a claim that he was definitely going to be competitive, but rather just to wait and see what happens. This is my way of saying "if it happens, I want you to remember that first impressions can often be wrong".

And, if it matters, Flash Fitz were showing up in lists before a point drop. As were MANz. Been a part of this thread since the day it opened, so I remember all that.


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 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.

He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.

Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.

There's at least 1 thing he does better than anything else we got: surviving being the focus of your opponent's attacks. Even Makari with a 2++ and Character Protection is unlikely to make it through a turn of dedicated "I want to kill this thing" attacks.


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In short, Ghaz is a perfect Distraction Carnifex. Dangerous enough not to ignore and durable enough to take a beating.

 flandarz wrote:
Again, not going to engage because you're so set on "too bad for competitive" that you're being intractable. I never even made a claim that he was definitely going to be competitive, but rather just to wait and see what happens. This is my way of saying "if it happens, I want you to remember that first impressions can often be wrong".

And, if it matters, Flash Fitz were showing up in lists before a point drop. As were MANz. Been a part of this thread since the day it opened, so I remember all that.


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 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.

He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.

Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.

There's at least 1 thing he does better than anything else we got: surviving being the focus of your opponent's attacks. Even Makari with a 2++ and Character Protection is unlikely to make it through a turn of dedicated "I want to kill this thing" attacks.


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In short, Ghaz is a perfect Distraction Carnifex. Dangerous enough not to ignore and durable enough to take a beating.

I appreciate your optimism. Have a good night man... we all hope your right even if we don’t agree. I’m still buying and playing with him regardless.

Same.

I never play "optimum" anyway so long as it isnt auto-lose territory i generally use it anyway.

And that model is way too sexy to never field. At all.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.

He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.

Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.

At his default profile, he's not even much better than a Kitted Warboss in close combat too, which is a kick in the pants.

With Brutal but Kunning, relic klaw is strictly better (re-roll all hits, wounds, and 4 flat damage).

And he can be taken as cheaply as 78 points... is this worth (likely) 200+ points? I dunno.

I think it really hinges if you can somehow maximize the fact he can only take 4 damage a phase. You could leave your opponent in a situation where he CANNOT be killed if charged, so the unit they are sending into him that will get struck back.

But I imagine the typical situation (if slogged) will be:

T1: Do 4 wounds in shooting phase.
T2: Do 4 wounds in shooting phase, charge him and finish him off.

In Tellyporta, it'll come down to how well beta tellyporta strikes actually do competitively. But as you said, can't this already be done by a warboss for cheaper?

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.

There is benefit to having a unit that can't be picked up in 1 shooting phase. Gaz is our IH leviathan. He can move up, guarantee screening for other characters, and is a charge deterrent for enemies. It's annoying that he can't interact as well with ruins as well as not being able to advance and charge (which the latter I imagine will be FAQ'D.

I will try and make him work for ITC.

The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.

I wager we get a warlord trait stratagem. I agree with you, though, I'd rather keep the SSAG as the warlord.

Just pointing out you can already employ the badass krumpin warboss with a better charge rate for *probably* 200 less points and taking a worthwhile culture for a lot of units.

I like the idea of what they're trying to do, but I'd wager he settles in at best mid tier unless we PA shakes stuff up. He'll find the odd spot in interesting lists but won't be mainstream.

It’s kinda early but how can you make him work
Goff detachment
Ghaz
Weird boy
Makari
2x skar boys blobs
1x Gretchen

Desthskull detwchment

Teleport ghaz in
Da. Jump skar boy unit 1
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys