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Any vehicle or monster that lacks an invul in melee he's gonna mulch, but w/o adv + charge he isnt going to catch a lot of them

Ghaz needs that waaagh fixed other then that new psychic powers, relics, strats, Gretchin hopefully getting some buffs to Mek guns and kills kans... I’m hoping something works from all this but if ghaz has a chance to be played outside of tellyport strat he needs his Waagh fixed.... even then he’s going to get speed bumped w chaff units..

Really, he needs two things to become a real monster.
1) A sweep option for his Klaw.
2) Waagh fix.

Right now, his best targets are slow, high Toughness and Wounds, and good Save units. And, to be fair, there's a lot of those, but they tend to be well screened, so you'll need good options to clear those screens before throwing Ghazzy at them (Lootaz, Gitz, Boyz, etc.).

He doesn't really need the fight twice Strat, cuz anything he comes into contact with is gonna be dead, or nearly so, except for mid to high model count chaff.

He could survive a turn with a knight and kill them in short order. But honestly you could do that just as well with a normal old boss with Relic klaw. Ghaz has some uses but, they feel a bit too niche.

Specialist Mobs and Kustom Jobs are likely to be equivalent to the Tyranid Adaptive Physiologies (or, if you prefer, the IG Tank Aces) - take one instead of a WL trait, separate options for units of Infantry and Vehicle models. I thought they were pretty interesting for Tyranids, particularly the monster traits. I can see an easy one being a Grot Gunner upgrade for a vehicle's ranged weapons.

This discussion made me realize Goff Bonebreakers could be a thing. Especially with Ghaz's new aura. 6 + D6 attacks, with exploding 6's and reroll 1's seems real good. The obvious issue is can Ghaz even keep up.

The only thing I'm concerned with the Tank ace equivalents is how cheap, fragile and en mass are vehicles are meant to be. Unless there are some nice buffs for the gork/morkanaughts, or it affects a while unit.

 gmaleron wrote:
Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?

Absolutely do magnetize your dreads and kanz. It's super-easy to do and you can even switch army between the models. They are literally the first models I've ever magnetized.

Both kanz and dreads have changed their optimal load-out with every single rule book released, if you don't magnetize them, you'll be looking at a mediocre to useless unit pretty soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least the new buggies are 3 per unit, so it really depends on the wording.

tulun wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?

As Deathskull, I like Klaw, Klaw, KMB, KMB or Klaw, Saw, KMB, KMB.

I ran 6 not long ago against a triple flyer eldar list, saw + triple KMB. Worked great ! Klaw is the better option with deathskulls rerolls but I was lacking points.

I think you really need three kmb s if you really want to ensure hitting at least once

I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.

It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.

It's a real shame on Ghaz'. No good player will ever let him touch his optimal targets. Unless there's a way to make him move quicker AND clear screens (without support) he will never be taken in competitive lists.

If he costs 280pts, that's 8 Meganobz.... Comparatively they have 24 wounds vs 12, 24 str 10 attacks D3 damage (12 hits average) vs 5 str 14/7 str 10 (5-6 hits average), same save, T4 Meganobz vs T7 Ghaz'. Meganobz can go in ruins, can be da jumped, are affected by WAAAAAAGGGHH! Aura, can fight twice without death and can be any clan.

Do his buffs even so that much for Goff boys? Has anyone run the maths?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do his buffs even so that much for Goff boys? Has anyone run the maths?

Well Math looks awesome considering how many buffs you have that multiply with each other...
They already tend to produce more hits than they have attacks, Thrakkas new aura increases that even more.

But, in my actual experience with running Skarboyz+Banner+Old Ghaz+Goff Culture was that anything they touch is either utterly obliterated or they bounce either way because AP0 attacks are not cutting it. For example, I charged a full mob of choppa boyz into a foetid bloat drone, which then killed five in overwatch, leaving 24 plus nob to swing and with just slightly above average rolls, it stayed alive with two wounds. With new Thrakka it would have been dead for sure, but that's a hell of an investment to kill a 138 point vehicle.
In comparison, when charging a fully buffed pox walker screen with Typhus and two defensive buffs on them, I still killed them more than two times over.
All these are to be taken with a grain of salt, as Death Guard are an army which lacks the ability to clear hordes efficiently and attack from long range.

As another thread on this forum correctly summarized, whether a unit is a great assault unit is solely decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its damage potential. Therefore, Thrakka won't change anything in the viability of boyz.

To end on a positive note, I believe Thrakka is much better at supporting Nobz oder MANz, because those can actually make full use of his buffs and are great against a wider range of targets. Tellyporting in with a screen of MANz might truely wreck someone's day.

Lousy day at work, so time for some math!
Let's look first at 8 unbuffed MANz vs PEQ (primaris), VEQ (veichle), KEQ (knight) and IH (5++ 5+++dudes) + Warpath. In bold the best results:
32A 3+ S10 AP3 dmgD3 -1 to hit

vs PEQ 22,22W or 11 DM (dead Models)
vs IHE 11,85 or 4 DM
vs VEQ 17,77W or 1 DM
vs KEQ 14,22W or 0 DM

Now Buffed Goff MANz (as per "I fething Love Ghazzy") + Warpath
40A 3+ S10 AP3 dmgD3 / -1 to hit / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s

vs PEQ 40,39W or 20 DM
vs IHE 21,54W or 8 DM
vs VEQ 32,31W or 3 DM
vs KEQ 25,85W or 1 DM




Now Ghaz not in Goff and without Fist of Gork top bracket
5A 2+ S14 AP4 dmg4

vs PEQ 13.88W or 3 DM
vs IEH 6,17 or 1/2 DM
vs VEQ 13.88W or 1 DM
vs KEQ 7.40W or 0 DM

Same dude lower Bracket
7A 2+ S10 AP4 dmg4

vs PEQ 19,44 or 4 DM
vs IEH 8,64W or 1/2 DM
vs VEQ 15,55 or 1 DM
vs KEQ 10,37 or 0 DM

Now what happens if he´s with his buddies, with the blessing of Gork and top bracket
7A 2+ S18 AP4 dmg4 / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s

vs PEQ 27,00W or 6 DM
vs IEH 12,00W or 2/4 DM
vs VEQ 27,00W or 2 DM
vs KEQ 18,00W or 0 DM

And at last, bracket fully buffed
9A 2+ S14 AP4 dmg4 / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s

vs PEQ 34,56W or 8 DM
vs IEH 15,34W or 2/5 DM
vs VEQ 34,56 or 2 DM
vs KEQ 18,43 or 0 DM

SO, now you know that if you wanna go bananas and play 20 Goffs MANz with the beast from the east, you might get very happy. Also having him lower bracket might just be your best bet and make up for some real F U N.
Also, IH results were so screwed with Ghazzy because the FNP and Invu mess with the app algorithm of the app, so I included a minimum, maximum average to make it more reliable.
Cheers

So any word on if this release has the big mek w kff?

Nope. It does say "updated datasheets" but that might as well just be the primaris wolves.

KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.

I understand what we base viability a lot on killing potential, but I do want to note that Ghaz provides a lot of defensive benefits as well. While 8 MANz may throw out more damage, they actually die off far quicker than Ghaz does. But since the same stuff that kills them quickly is the same stuff that wants to target Ghaz, just being on the field improves your MANz survivability. So, while I see that his killing potential isn't where it should be (c'mon GW, give my boy a sweep with that Klaw!), I believe he can act as a force multiplier just by helping your big stuff survive into further rounds.

That said, I kinda hope Ghaz can get a Ramming Speed variant in PA (though, I don't understand why it doesn't already include Monsters). So, my wishlist for a "perfect" Ghaz would be to give him a sweep, fix his Waagh, and give him Ramming Speed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.

It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.

6 fully magnetised and great looking dredds, plus 2 awful old metal ones. I can equip them how I want (i have extra dred arms magnetized somewhere), but I disagree with you on the "overdoing" of the 3rd KMB.

You only lose one lousy attack, and your dreads won't be meleeing more than once or twice per game, unless they get bogged down in chaff units. If they do, on extrat attack won't matter much anyway.
But 3 KMBs is really worth it because of neg to hit modifiers. With only 2 KMBs, even with deathskull reroll you won't be hitting much on a 6.

mek guns are good so yes there is competition, but if you play with kill points they can be trash against some armies. For ITC your opponent will get kill more every turn thanks to them, unless you obliterate his long range AT units. As to the SJD, I don't like it much myself, so no competition here. I have tried to make the morkanaut work, but that thing is just too expensive, and will die very fast t many armies (in a mirror match guess what will get SSAGed first ? Good old morkanaut).

So triple KMB deathskull dredd really come out on top currently IMHO, because its a versatile platform with toughness 7 6++ 8 wounds, cheaper than a scrapjet so if one or two get blown to bits on oppnent's alpha strike it's ok.

Also you can TP 3 of them on certain match ups, which is way more effective than TPing anything else we currently have. I just start them on the board though.

The real problem I have is on tables with ruins and buildings with 1st and second floors. But we don't have many ways to deal with units hidden up there anyway so...

 flandarz wrote:
KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.

I understand what we base viability a lot on killing potential, but I do want to note that Ghaz provides a lot of defensive benefits as well. While 8 MANz may throw out more damage, they actually die off far quicker than Ghaz does. But since the same stuff that kills them quickly is the same stuff that wants to target Ghaz, just being on the field improves your MANz survivability. So, while I see that his killing potential isn't where it should be (c'mon GW, give my boy a sweep with that Klaw!), I believe he can act as a force multiplier just by helping your big stuff survive into further rounds.

That said, I kinda hope Ghaz can get a Ramming Speed variant in PA (though, I don't understand why it doesn't already include Monsters). So, my wishlist for a "perfect" Ghaz would be to give him a sweep, fix his Waagh, and give him Ramming Speed.

Odd buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff. Hope they don’t legends it with chinork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.

It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.

6 fully magnetised and great looking dredds, plus 2 awful old metal ones. I can equip them how I want (i have extra dred arms magnetized somewhere), but I disagree with you on the "overdoing" of the 3rd KMB.

You only lose one lousy attack, and your dreads won't be meleeing more than once or twice per game, unless they get bogged down in chaff units. If they do, on extrat attack won't matter much anyway.
But 3 KMBs is really worth it because of neg to hit modifiers. With only 2 KMBs, even with deathskull reroll you won't be hitting much on a 6.

mek guns are good so yes there is competition, but if you play with kill points they can be trash against some armies. For ITC your opponent will get kill more every turn thanks to them, unless you obliterate his long range AT units. As to the SJD, I don't like it much myself, so no competition here. I have tried to make the morkanaut work, but that thing is just too expensive, and will die very fast t many armies (in a mirror match guess what will get SSAGed first ? Good old morkanaut).

So triple KMB deathskull dredd really come out on top currently IMHO, because its a versatile platform with toughness 7 6++ 8 wounds, cheaper than a scrapjet so if one or two get blown to bits on oppnent's alpha strike it's ok.

Also you can TP 3 of them on certain match ups, which is way more effective than TPing anything else we currently have. I just start them on the board though.

The real problem I have is on tables with ruins and buildings with 1st and second floors. But we don't have many ways to deal with units hidden up there anyway so...

I’d wait til the Gretchen clan comes out. Odds are your right and it’s a shooting profile buff. I doubt Gretchen get melee buffs. I’m predicting militarium tempests treatment before PA without the subclans


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Games workshop heard a few of you guys were still holding out on optimism for ghaz release so they decided to charge you $185 for the box set!

At that price see you in 6 months when ghaz is sold separately.

Where is that price coming from?

 flandarz wrote:
KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.

No, it is listed in the codex part. Only the warboss on bike moved to FW.

Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork

Gruxz wrote:
Where is that price coming from?

Valrak's source confirmed it at £105. That translates to 185USD (in GWs world)

Edit: Fixed numbers

How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...

 Billagio wrote:
Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork

Deepstriking Gorks are a truely competitive choice if your goals is winning tournaments. The Morkanaut is has great synergy with buggy lists, which themselves are notch below the competitive builds, but good enough for any semi-competitive meta.

PiñaColada wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
Where is that price coming from?

Valrak's source confirmed it at £105. That translates to 185USD (in GWs world)

Edit: Fixed numbers

Hmm that could/should translate to about 135 euros. Using gw pricing. It's a bargain for what you get, but the world doesn't really need more nobz.

Do you mean Gorks *aren't* a competitive choice?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork

Deepstriking Gorks are a truely competitive choice if your goals is winning tournaments. The Morkanaut is has great synergy with buggy lists, which themselves are notch below the competitive builds, but good enough for any semi-competitive meta.

Great thanks!

 koooaei wrote:
How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...

this is a valid concern that i bet was not addressed in PA and will probably pop up in the faq.

He is the only character (im aware of) that has access to such a stratagem and degrades. Fortunately for him either way its ruled is fine since he doesnt become a useless git at 1-2 wounds but most often than not i'd probably want the 7A S10 over the 5A S14, unless it was a knight that did him in (unlikely, it will probably be a captain or other such T4 model with 5 or less dudes that finishes him off)

As for the gork/mork thing, Morks are generally more fun/versatile to me but truth be told nauts are fairly easy to delete so best bet is always tellyport rammingspeed them into something that either cannot or REALLY doesnt want to fall back (if it survives).
Which of course the Gork is better at. I usually have things i want the mork to cover with KFF (ideally other tough vehicles so its not as obvious to shoot him first) but thats just because i tend to run a lot of vehicles.

 koooaei wrote:
How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...

Lashwhip Tyrants were specifically clarified in the Tyranid FAQ to perform their post-death attacks using their lowest profile, as was anything with a table using the Tyranid fight upon death stratagem. Most likely Ghaz will too.

Jidmah wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.

No, it is listed in the codex part. Only the warboss on bike moved to FW.

Ah. My mistake.