No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**Emicrania**

Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?

**SemperMortis**

Emicrania wrote:
Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?

I mean...for fluff and for fun? absolutely. competitively? you are throwing points away with Manz and a Banner. I mean, you could theoretically make a decent list around 2 Tellyporta Battlewagons loaded with Manz and then Da Jumping the Waaagh Banner to be close enough to help out.

**tulun**

SemperMortis wrote:
Emicrania wrote:
Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?
I mean...for fluff and for fun? absolutely. competitively? you are throwing points away with Manz and a Banner. I mean, you could theoretically make a decent list around 2 Tellyporta Battlewagons loaded with Manz and then Da Jumping the Waaagh Banner to be close enough to help out.

I don't even know if it's ever worth it. Daisy chaining back, if you lose like 2 MANz in CC, you're basically netting almost no benefit.

**Grimskul**

Emicrania wrote:
Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?

I also think that unfortunately that in addition to what others have said, the WAAAGH! Banner detracts from what the MANZ are mainly for, which is establishing a solid foothold on an objective and being hard to shift, especially in cover. They're one of the few Ork units that rely more on their durability than their offense, and investing points into buffing them into hitting better means you're using them for the wrong role. The +1 damage to their CC is certainly a good buff to that, but it's not something I'd bank on, especially since you can't do it for both units.

**addnid**

I think if you don’t want more to field more than 10, then bad moon meganobz can really do some good tanking with a bad moon weirdboy making them 1+.

If I wanted to field 20 Manz I would make them tin heads though. Clear some bubble wrap with gorkanaut and a unit of boyz turn 1, then turn two you Da jump one unit of 10 Manz and TP the other unit of 10 Manz. And hope you make a charge.
Of course you can go evil sunz Manz instead. But I would want to go with Manz hitting on 3s not 4s if I was fielding 20

**Tomsug**

About MANZ...

Tellyport them in transport or use a transport in any way is pointless. Either you get them in combat i T3, or your transport explode on the way. And you have a serious problem to get them out due their large bases and 3” limit. And they stuck somewehre in the midle.

There are 3 ways how to use them.

- Camp them on objective.
- Hold the line againts the CC army and keep your SMG/lootas and SAG firing.
- tellyport 2 or more min 5MAN units of Evil sunz on the same place. Than you have a chance to get at least one of them into the combat. And they are very competitive in CC. Doublekillsaw MANz can deal very well with this Storm shield bastards.

I made some experiments with banner and MANz couple of times and the problem is - how to keep them together? It works only in defence line scenario and even in this scenario with 9 MANz on the table, it seems to me better to buy 2 more MANz than one Banner.

**Jidmah**

Grimskul wrote:
Emicrania wrote:
Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?

I also think that unfortunately that in addition to what others have said, the WAAAGH! Banner detracts from what the MANZ are mainly for, which is establishing a solid foothold on an objective and being hard to shift, especially in cover. They're one of the few Ork units that rely more on their durability than their offense, and investing points into buffing them into hitting better means you're using them for the wrong role. The +1 damage to their CC is certainly a good buff to that, but it's not something I'd bank on, especially since you can't do it for both units.

This. And honestly, if you are already bringing 20 MANz, I'd rather try to make Thrakka work in that list than bring a banner, as MANz is the only thing he actually has any synergy with.

**An Actual Englishman**

Madjob wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)

I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally

Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.

I don't know about the Wartrike as "mandatory", unless you're purely talking theme. Unless you're running a bonebreaka blitz brigade, or the decidedly un-ES melee dread mob, the wartrike doesn't do much for ES that the bikerboss doesn't also do.

Yea I was absolutely talking about theme. The Deffkilla isn't a good unit competitively at 120pts imo.

tulun wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:

It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.

Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.

They are very accurate vs vehicles. They have a permanent visions lol. Toss em in a chinork and they have a 40" range, 50" if you're Evil Suns without a shooting penalty.

The big thing is they overperform vs vehicles. I play against vehicles constantly, including Wave Serpents, with a -1 damage modifier, so their cost hasn't really bothered me. They've won me games a lot.

If you rarely see units like that, though, I can see why you might be indifferent to them. And they do, like all of this style of play, come with the cost of protecting them whether that's grot shields or a transport.

Yea the thing is the transport stops their biggest potential damage increases in double shoot and grenades and Grot Shields means your Grots have to be closer than the bustas to the enemy so 23" away minimum. They just don't synergise as well as Loota's that can fire across the board or Flash Gits (that are sturdier and benefit better from loot it.

**PiñaColada**

Jidmah wrote:
Unless you can put KMB on them, mini-mek are useless though, same for small unit of kommandos. They can't hold an objective, they can't hurt anything, can't deny area or block movement or do anything else. You would never, ever take meks or kommandoz outside of a brigade, and I don't see "you gain 2 CP" changing that.

Eh, I think kommandos are decent as their small footprint makes them easy to sneak in if your opponent has been sloppy with deepstrike denying and as ES the have a good chance of making their charge. I'd argue that they're still good for objectives in several cases, it's not always that your opponent stands on every single one that you're after and even then it's not like those units are always obsec. They're unlikely to do much damage but 5 deepstriking ork boyz with tankbusta bomb is a pretty good deal for 40 points IMO. You're right about the minimek though, I wouldn't take him if I'm not running a brigade. He's a decent choice if you have MANZ in a transport as you can get a ammo runt to take the hit if it blows up. But yeah, it's a shame he only has a pistol. I'd love it if you could give him a KMB or snazzgun but he's pretty cheap and I run plenty of vehicles so at least he almost always get some repairs in. As I said, I don't really want another HQ so it's not just the extra 2CP but I'm also effectively trading a lot of the points between the 6th HQ and some of the elite slots.

**Emicrania**

This is 3 list I'll try asap during next weeks, just to check Ghazzy
Feedbacks are welcomed

List 1

Spoiler:

List 2

Spoiler:

List 3

Spoiler:

**tulun**

No Goff painboy to heal ghaz?

**gungo**

tulun wrote:
No Goff painboy to heal ghaz?

grotsnik however medisquig is all he can use

**Geemoney**

Da Kleverest Boss!!!

Isn't medisquid klan locked?? I don't think Grotsnick would work in that case.

**Nostro**

PiñaColada wrote:
Eh, I think kommandos are decent as their small footprint makes them easy to sneak in if your opponent has been sloppy with deepstrike denying and as ES the have a good chance of making their charge. I'd argue that they're still good for objectives in several cases, it's not always that your opponent stands on every single one that you're after and even then it's not like those units are always obsec.

They're also decent brigade fillers in Deathskullz as they're obsec, a squad of 5 can pop on an isolated/ill-defended objective and hold/contest better.

**yukishiro1**

Yeah, ob-sec kommandos are actually pretty useful. I don't think I'd ever take a brigade but they're pretty useful in their own right.

**whembly**

Hey guys... I have a massive "pile of shame" of orks that I can kitbash quite a bit of Smasha Gunz.

What's the optimal number of Smashas in a 2000pt list? I can conceivably build 18, but that seems waaay overkill.

Thanks!

**SemperMortis**

whembly wrote:
Hey guys... I have a massive "pile of shame" of orks that I can kitbash quite a bit of Smasha Gunz.

What's the optimal number of Smashas in a 2000pt list? I can conceivably build 18, but that seems waaay overkill.

Thanks!

Competitively, the best conceivable build is....18 smasha guns. 594pts and you have arguably the best artillery in the game spammed to the max! I usually bring 8-10 but thats more to do with cost than anything else. I am debating buying 1 or 2 more mekgun boxes and 2 more trukkz to kitbash 6 more.

**tulun**

Geemoney wrote:
Da Kleverest Boss!!!

Isn't medisquid klan locked?? I don't think Grotsnick would work in that case.

Medisquig is clan locked, yes.

**Jidmah**

Yep. Grotznik cannot heal Ghaz with a medisquig, as he can only heal deff skulls characters with it. But pretty much every review talking about how great Thrakka is also missed that.

IMO, list #3 seems to be the most likely to actually do anything, #1 has too little shooting and #2 is kind of all over the place. 20 MANz+Thrakka+tripple burna bommers is just too many points for too few models.

**yukishiro1**

I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.

**GreenTidePackers**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.

I pretty much 100% agree. Only other upside for 3 bommas is recon points(ITC) and potentially moveblocking melee armies.

**Jidmah**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.

I never had an issue with dropping both bombs on valuable targets - IF they survive for a second bombing run, which they usually don't. Obviously, my primary interest is bombing and 'eadbutting stuff with them, but drawing fire from my morkanaut and buggies onto the bommers is also a huge part. I don't think they have place in an infantry-heavy list.

Personally, I think a pyromaniacs battalion with two bommers might be the better choice, because the investment isn't as big and you get CP out of it. I'm just torn as what to put in as the second HQ, as I do want the maniacal seizure power for one of my warp heads. Too bad the mess of a KFF mek is clan-locked, I'm seriously thinking about fielding a MA mek now.

**addnid**

I think two is ok, the second one can (hopefully) finish the job turn two.
I say that but when I write army lists, my burnas always end up being axed because they have a niche role, and I need points for units which have a "main function".

I can't even fit one in ATM... I blame those mek gunz, 33 points for such a great backfield unit, when you have 12-18 of these you really just need the rest of your points to be able to push forward, and be able to clear large units (the only thing smashas and three SAGs can't clear really) or beefed up IH intercessors, or RG centurions. I think we can clear actualy clear paladin squads but that remains to be tested (18 + 3 Death skull SAG surely can, or at least make the paladin squad drop to a low enough number so as to not be a huge threat anymore) .

**Jidmah**

It's still luck-based as someone with hot rolls can just ignore all that.

I've had a similar (albeit less competitive) problem with 3x Victrix Honour Guard or large units of Death Wing Knights. In some games they just pop as planed, in other games they tank 1k+ points of ork shooting for two rounds, which essentially makes you lose the game. You need a reliable way to handle those kind of units, and I think burna bommers can provide something like that for certain lists.

**gungo**

I think the burna bomber puts out a lot of mortal wounds for its cost essential ya 3+ vs infantry for a mortal wound per model followed by 3 mortal wounds to every unit within 6in (which is huge) is a ton of mortal wounds for an alpha strike on turn 1 and well worth the cost of 132 points and 1 cp....

Another burna bomber is also decent but yes diminishing returns when it can drop another bomb and explode in your opponents deployment zone and take out all those pesky thunder fire cannons or whatever else is in your opponents deployment zone. It’s likely still worth 132points and another command point...

That third bomber is going to be fairly junk but probably is dead already anyway.. I don’t expect it would have survived 3 turns regardless abd was likely taken just for redundancy. But it has no bombs left and you likely don’t have CP left on turn 3. You also probably have units engaged in combat turn 3. You can give this one skorcha missles and that helps it’s shooting a little now but essentially the third bomber is waste of points and will likely do nothing but die.

Bombers are great for a gunline ork army spreading destruction in your opponents deployment zone you just don’t want any of your units near where they explode.

But I agree I wish I could take 1-2 max pyromaniac bombers without having to waste more points on units I don’t need. But the choice is either 3 bombers or a wartrike, a big Mek w kff(that can’t protect anything but grots), 3x10 grots and a bomber for the same cost.... I guess the question is would you rather have 4 more CP and a wartrike or 2 more bombers. I personally think that second bomber is going to do a lot of damage with another eadbutt. I fully expect my opponents to focus those bombers down after the destruction caused turn 1. And with 3 bombers that’s ok.

**Nora**

A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?

**addnid**

Jidmah wrote:
It's still luck-based as someone with hot rolls can just ignore all that.

I've had a similar (albeit less competitive) problem with 3x Victrix Honour Guard or large units of Death Wing Knights. In some games they just pop as planed, in other games they tank 1k+ points of ork shooting for two rounds, which essentially makes you lose the game. You need a reliable way to handle those kind of units, and I think burna bommers can provide something like that for certain lists.

Jidmah you play vehicule heavy lists so yes. So will I outside of tournaments when stuff gets back to normal. But from a highly comp perspective, I think Hordes of boyz, with the current KFF working in cc, can enable us to just swamp those units and win on objectives, even without killing them.

Which leads me to think green tide just might be able to reach absolute top tier if KFF rule doesn’t change. I know that I used to fear getting charged by some scary units with my boy mobs, but with a 5++ not so much. If a KFF stays at 55 (also unlikely) then you could even run 120 boys with 3 KFFs, a waagh banner, mad dock, and still have points for many smashas and the three DSKULLS SAGs. Doesn’t sound fun to pLay, but it seems very scary to me.

Because orks becoming pseudo plaguebearers (6+++ from painboy instead of 5+++ for PB) but with a lot more attacks, potentially boost3d by waagh banner, with backfield support through SSAG, mek gunz, and all the other stuff we have that chaos lacks, I mean when you think about it, even centurions or aggressors will have a hard time shredding 90 boys only wth their shooting. And these units are perfect candidates for our smashas hah hah.

Will the KFF still work in cc after the faq though... I fear it won’t :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nora wrote:
A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?

I have been thinking about it but I personally think the Bonebreaker Forktress is a better option, being much cheaper although less (nearly as durable, if not more with the 5++). Also Bonebreaker doesn’t have a base so you can hopefully hit units on a 1st floor if a model is slightly sticking out. I think evil sunz Gorkanauts are great because they are our best chaff clearing option with either sparkly bitz or the 24 shot Gatling, but they need to avoid being exposed too much (18 wounds for 311 points is not that great in terms of durability. Playing nids, my exocrine is 12 wounds, 155 points, usually gets a -1 to be hit, and still dies every time after it shoots).

**gungo**

I think you are absolutely correct that boys infantry heavy board control is still the most competitive list we have. I didn’t see saga of the beast changing much.

**Jidmah**

Does that work though? Last time we played, on the table next to me there were some Deathwing Knights murdering their way through multiple units of tyranid chaff. With fury of the first they easily just charged and wiped a unit every turn, losing one model max.

I also don't think that marines have any issues shredding 90 boyz per turn with aggressors/centurions, TF cannons and intercessors. Also keep in mind that most of them have eliminators to end a forward KFF.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nora wrote:
A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?

In my experience, first turn hard-hitters are usually not worth it as even the most casual players have understood that valuable stuff should not be deployed where it can easily be reached. You'll end up in combat with a screening unit and lose your model next turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I think you are absolutely correct that boys infantry heavy board control is still the most competitive list we have. I didn’t see saga of the beast changing much.

Agree, which is sad.

However, I think that point drops on some key units like gunwagons, warbikes and the wartrike might enable that archetype to gain traction. It does works very well in less competitive environments, which means that a push in efficiency can push it into the competitive scene.

**addnid**

Jidmah I play nids as well as dark angels, and I can tell you that Deathwing Knight unit should have died to smite and broodlord and other short ranged nid stuff. The nid list must have been a very casual one if Deathwing knights did so much damage. Unless it was like a 10 dude squad, with chaplain support to tank the MW with the litany.
It is true the Deathwing dude with his flail doing overspill damage can clear quite a lot of chaff all by himself. But you can have like 90 gaunts the price of a 10 Deathwing Knight squad so...
I guess indeed a 10 man strong Dknight squad can clear quite a bit of stuff and tank quite hard with proper support. I should try it sometime hah hah. It is going to struggle hard against plenty of other stuff though.