No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**cody.d.**

Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

**Blackie**

cody.d. wrote:
Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

Most of my favorite units are HS, and I'd really struggle to be limited to just 3 slots. In fact I'd definitely consider playing with a single spearhead, especially if the detachment is Tin 'Eadz.

**Jidmah**

Quackzo wrote:
tulun wrote:
Emicrania wrote:
So, given we know now the price of all the detachment, which klan and in which form should be the best one?

Freeboterz battallion + DS patrol?
DS Brigade?
DS battallion + ES patrol?

...

Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.

Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.

I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.

I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.

Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.

Yeah I have similar thoughts but don't agree 100% on the Evil Sunz part. I think we'll see lists structured like so:
1. Mono Clan Brigade/Battalion
2. Double Battalion, either mono clan or with an about even split between two clans.
3. Battalion + Other, where we'll have either monoclan or one primary clan and a support clan.
4. Battalion + 2 patrols, where we'll have the 2 patrols specifically to grab unique abilities from two supporting clans.
I don't expect many 3 detachment lists because the CP cost will compete too much with all our pregame upgrades that we depend on.

Deathskulls is the best monoclan faction imo (also my favourite clan by coincidence), they just uplift all your units. Even units like killa kans implicitly benefit from the relic and psychic spell. They also are the easiest to build a brigade with as they benefit MSU more. So I agree that we'll be seeing Deathskulls as the default clan for brigades and battalions.
I think Evil Sunz still has merit and wouldn't be surprised if it was a primary clan in a lot of lists, we might not see a brigade of Evil Sunz but I could see a battalion of evil suns + battalion of Deathskulls. Evil Sunz kultur provides a buff that is desirable on most ork units, and the ork units that will prefer something else can sit in detachment number two.
Freebooters on paper sounds better off with the new detachments but the missions look a lot less kill focused and terrain provides a lot more defense now, so it might be harder to trigger the kultur then before. Furthermore, Badrukk and Flashgitz can just go hang out with some Deathskulls and not be fussed about it.
I think Bad Moons is actually the clan that gets worse off, we were often taking it for the sake of Lootas and Tankbustas. Running a detachment for the sake of 1 or 2 units is actually a huge resource cost now, maybe if people want Lootas they'll commit to a Patrol and leave it at that. Tankbustas actually function fine outside of Badmoons, they're just insanely good when they shoot twice, so I think we'll see people taking them as Deathskulls/Evil Sunz.
Goffs might be more relevant with Ghaz and mechanised lists. I think Blood Axes might have a harder time due to the smaller board size, they probably will get a faq to change them to getting the benefit of "light cover".
No one played snakebites and I don't see why they would still.
I think the Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads detachments will see play but only as a spearhead or vanguard detachment in addition to a Deathskulls/Evil Sunz battalion.

I agree mostly, but I highly doubt we will be seeing double battalions anywhere. You are just adding troop tax and additional CP for minimal to no gain, since there isn't actually a reason to run more troops than necessary anymore.

The way I see it, if you want boyz you will be running an evil suns battalion + deathskulls patrol. If you don't it will be either a deathskulls or freeboota battalion with the option for a patrol of evil suns or bad moons to add MANz or lootas/tank bustas.
Something I can also see people trying to gamble a bloodaxe patrol with their warlord trait to gain some CP and create additional HQ slots for weird boyz or KFF meks who don't care about their culture.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackie wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

Most of my favorite units are HS, and I'd really struggle to be limited to just 3 slots. In fact I'd definitely consider playing with a single spearhead, especially if the detachment is Tin 'Eadz.

A single spearhead costs you 3 CP, a battalion and a patrol (2 additional slots of each type) is just 2 CP. I'm facing the same problem with my buggies, as SJD+KBB+Scrapjet+Warbikers is just too much. I guess the competitive option would be deciding between SJD and scapjets, but I don't wanna.

I think those specialist detachments are dead.

**Blackie**

Jidmah wrote:

A single spearhead costs you 3 CP, a battalion and a patrol (2 additional slots of each type) is just 2 CP. I'm facing the same problem with my buggies, as SJD+KBB+Scrapjet+Warbikers is just too much. I guess the competitive option would be deciding between SJD and scapjets, but I don't wanna.

I think those specialist detachments are dead.

True, but battallion + patrol only allows 5 HS, I really want 6 and I'm willing to lose 1CP to do that. In fact I even wish I could field the 7-8 HS that were allowed by a triple battallion in 8th. The battallion + patrol combo also forces me to field 4 troops I may not want, but on the other hand I could field the 3rd and even 4th and 5th HQs which could be handy.

However when points costs are released I may change my mind and lean towards different types of lists, right now it's just speculations.

**Jidmah**

What do your lists look like if you need that many HS slots?

**Blackie**

Jidmah wrote:
What do your lists look like if you need that many HS slots?

It's basically the Tin Eadz army that I've played after lockdown, revised into a single Spearhead instead of 3x battallions. Bonebreaka (with meganobz), Naut, 3 Dreads, 4-6 Kanz, 3-6 Mek Gunz and Da Boomer are my HS. That's 6 slots. But splitting the Mek Gunz and/or adding Flash Gitz it's 7-8.

**Jidmah**

I see, that makes sense

**tulun**

Jidmah wrote:

The way I see it, if you want boyz you will be running an evil suns battalion + deathskulls patrol. If you don't it will be either a deathskulls or freeboota battalion with the option for a patrol of evil suns or bad moons to add MANz or lootas/tank bustas.
Something I can also see people trying to gamble a bloodaxe patrol with their warlord trait to gain some CP and create additional HQ slots for weird boyz or KFF meks who don't care about their culture.

Wouldn't you wanna take Deathskull Mega Nobs for Obsec? It seems a lot of people are saying: Durable units hold objectives. Even better with Obsec. Tin 'eads too for the CC buff.

Re Evil Suns: I dunno. The issue I see is that ES is going to have to prove they are worth taking beyond just Da Jumping boys, which was largely their purpose in 8th.

From what I am gleaning from play testers, it seems like running up and controlling the mid board is the most important thing and these deep strike chargers are nerfed (no fishing for long charges; coherency rules issues; Less board, so easier to screen out). Basically any of the clans can hit the middle of the board by turn 2. ES was really only there for Deep strike charge for Da Boys. I'd rather take Deathskull or Goff boys if I am just hitting mid board by turn 2 anyway.

So, I guess as a challenge to the ES boys --- prove your clan is worth the CP

**mikethefish**

Evil Sunz monoclan is perfectly viable. Speed is still the most important stat in the game, and Visions in the Smoke combined with some of the bigger shooty vehicles is quite effective. A Morkanaught alone, will make a nice Castle setup, with a Wierdboy and Sparkly Bitz increasing it's accuracy

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, as with all things, this will all largely depend on the new points values.

**tulun**

mikethefish wrote:
Evil Sunz monoclan is perfectly viable. Speed is still the most important stat in the game, and Visions in the Smoke combined with some of the bigger shooty vehicles is quite effective. A Morkanaught alone, will make a nice Castle setup, with a Wierdboy and Sparkly Bitz increasing it's accuracy

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, as with all things, this will all largely depend on the new points values.

I agree. I think evil suns lists will be best when focusing on vehicle lists leveraging visions.

I think it needs to be proven that’s a serious contender though as that’s a completely different archetype to currently successful ES lists, which is basically just boys.

**Vineheart01**

i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.

I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)

**tulun**

Vineheart01 wrote:
i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.

I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)

I reckon the way that list is played is that you take a bunch of WC6 and if you want a WC9 cast target. Since you roll then target, you can always buff your Stompa/Mork/Gork if you hit the 9+, and Da Booma / Killa Kans / Deff Koptas if you hit 6+.

The weirdboy relic also gives +1 cast too *in theory*. Needs confirmation if it affects <CLAN> powers, but I would wager it probably does. If so, you have an optional 5+ and 8+ respectively, even without nearby Ork units.

**Jidmah**

tulun wrote:
Wouldn't you wanna take Deathskull Mega Nobs for Obsec? It seems a lot of people are saying: Durable units hold objectives. Even better with Obsec. Tin 'eads too for the CC buff.

Not really, the whole point of MANz is that they murder anything which was on the objective before you got there. Dead stuff can't contest. Afterwards, you can spread them out to prevent most things from getting within 3" of the objective unless they charge the MANz - which brings us back to "dead stuff can't contest objectives".

Re Evil Suns: I dunno. The issue I see is that ES is going to have to prove they are worth taking beyond just Da Jumping boys, which was largely their purpose in 8th.

You can have two units of boyz in tactical reserves for 3 CP with 7 PL left for something like a KFF mek and a banner nob. IF boyz remain viable, so will ES.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.

From a gut feeling, the re-rolls for wound and damage do much more for the morkanaut than re-rolling all hits and if you really want to ruin someone's parking lot you can drop wreckers on the naut for wound re-rolls vs vehicles. My ad mech friend's knight hated that simple trick

I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)

Gunwagons can't have deff rollas, best you can do is a wreckin' ball.

Between the point drops on lascannons and the point rises on heavy bolters, I'm very curious what point costs rokkits and big shootas will be having this edition

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
The weirdboy relic also gives +1 cast too *in theory*. Needs confirmation if it affects <CLAN> powers, but I would wager it probably does. If so, you have an optional 5+ and 8+ respectively, even without nearby Ork units.

It doesn't affect them because clan powers are not part of the Power of the Waaagh! Discipline

**Vineheart01**

wait really? i never looked because generally i didnt want it on there. Especially with Da Booma it has the range to not immediately get charged if it was able to hit a target worth shooting at.
Thats lame. Oh well.

**tulun**

Jidmah wrote:

You can have two units of boyz in tactical reserves for 3 CP with 7 PL left for something like a KFF mek and a banner nob. IF boyz remain viable, so will ES.

From what I've heard is that the outflank rule isn't as good as we might think -- it's too easy to screen out with the smaller board. It's probably more useful for shooting units.

Da Jump -> charge + 1 in the porta might still be fine. But if you're starting them on the board anyway and heading to the centre, I don't necessarily think you need ES boys to move like 12" to the middle.

doesn't affect them because clan powers are not part of the Power of the Waaagh! Discipline

Yeah I'm aware. I think it's fair game for a FAQ, though.

**Jidmah**

Doubtful - it works the same for other armies and they haven't received a FAQ either.

**Vineheart01**

Dont know why you'd ever burn a relic on that anyway.

I'd rather take a Killchoppa as a 2nd relic than gitbones and i am not paying for a third relic.

**tulun**

Jidmah wrote:
Doubtful - it works the same for other armies and they haven't received a FAQ either.

is there an example where the psyker takes a random psychic power? I imagine if they are in a new discipline, that makes sense, but that isn't happening here.

The relic seems worded to not be intended for Smite.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Dont know why you'd ever burn a relic on that anyway.

I'd rather take a Killchoppa as a 2nd relic than gitbones and i am not paying for a third relic.

I think it would be great in this particular list. ASSUMING it buffs <CLAN> powers...

1) It's an OPTIONAL +1 to cast. Meaning it doesn't contribute to your weirdboy blowing his brains out.

2) As you are probably not taking any boys (or many) in this style of list, having the static +1 is already a big boon for Visions. 5+ and 8+ is 83% and 42% respectively, up from 72% and 28%. You basically double the shooting output of the unit that receives the buff, so I'd lean into consistency. Scraping together 9 ORK units nearby (as it counts for 1) for the +2 is also not as big an ask.

The major issue is keeping the weirdboy alive, of course, but that's nothing new.

**mikethefish**

Vineheart01 wrote:
i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.

I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)

They do plenty if the Boyz surrounding the Morkakaught are equipped with Shootas. The Shootas hide the Wierdboy, who upgrades the Morkanaught with Visions. The Morkanaught uses the KFF to protect the Boyz, who in turn give the Wierdboy a buff to casting. It's a symbiotic relationship that I happen to like a lot.

But yeah, put Visions on a Gunwagon - that's a pretty boss combo as well!

**addnid**

We no longer can reroll the 4+ to explode the gun wagon in enemy lines... what a bummer

**Vineheart01**

so am i reading the terrain and line of sight correct that "true line of sight" is basically gone now?
As in, if you get inside a big ruin but its physically a complete wall so you cant see out or in, under the new rules the wall "doesnt exist" and now both can shoot freely. Also meaning the 18+ wound models literally cannot hide, ever.
For simplicity it makes sense...kinda..but thats really bizarre...

**RedNoak**

Vineheart01 wrote:
so am i reading the terrain and line of sight correct that "true line of sight" is basically gone now?
As in, if you get inside a big ruin but its physically a complete wall so you cant see out or in, under the new rules the wall "doesnt exist" and now both can shoot freely. Also meaning the 18+ wound models literally cannot hide, ever.
For simplicity it makes sense...kinda..but thats really bizarre...

you still need to see your target.

"can be seen and targeted normally"

t, at least one model in that unit must [...] be visible to the shooting model. If unsure,
get a look from behind the firing model to see if any part of the target
is visible

Core Rules, https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf , SELECT TARGETS, Page 14.

**tulun**

Battle rep from I think a highly ranked ork player.

He seems bullish on DS and free booters. But I’m not really sure about this boy heavy list.

I also don’t think they are playing with new points, he quoted Deff koptas as 30 points.

https://youtu.be/C7NGKyw30l0

**Jidmah**

Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

**addnid**

Jidmah wrote:
Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?

**tneva82**

addnid wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?

Marine points got leaked. Some ideas on sisters(the not so competive list was about 1700pts 8th ed. Exorcist tank same, for weird reason d3 damage bolter went from 1 to 5). There might be some other leaks in number of youtube br's as some have got green light on using 9th points.

**Jidmah**

addnid wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/hksmz0/new_9th_space_marine_point_change_comparison_to/

**TedNugent**

cody.d. wrote:
Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.

Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters

Starting cliffnotes as I watch:

Positives:

Board control - most of the game is about footprint, hold half the board for at least half the game, usually win.

Boyz are good at this because they can stack KFF and Painboyz to survive, since you earn points during your command phase, you need to survive.

CPs - he would always take 3 batts - he gets the same number of CPs with more flexibility

Morale got more lenient

"Screens are twice as powerful in this edition" for two reasons - deep strike, and you can't risk double charging because if you can't reach one unit, you fail. Buff to armies with cheap screens.

Smaller board size - hurts da jump, easier to stay in bubble range. Allows you to stay in striking distance but hold objectives.

"The boyz are not the killiest things on the board any more" with the "Rise of Space Marines."

5 turns helps Orks.

"Kills don't matter."

Freebootas assisted by MSU spam

Negatives:

wrapping

Tagging is less effective with boyz, Grots are a little better

Line of sight - the moment you move into a piece of terrain, you can be shot

Blast weapons - terrified of blasts - are going to be unbelievable against the orks - tag them

Limited HQs - harder to get - Orks will be behind on CP due to cost to get HQ slots

You're going to want to be much more mono-faction

There is so much more fight first - many times you will want to get charged

**Rogerio134134**

TedNugent wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.

Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters

Yup I saw that video and it was interesting.

I've only just started and ork army and the way in leaning is towards 3 units of Boyz and some grots backed up by Mek with KFF and pain boy. I will then be running multiple SJD with a wartrike just charging forward firing at stuff using deffskulls re rolls. Around that I'm not sure what else I'll use but that will be my core.

Buggies seem great.

**cody.d.**

Jidmah wrote:
addnid wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/hksmz0/new_9th_space_marine_point_change_comparison_to/

Wow those points changes are all over the place aren't they? As high as 60% increase while some stuff got even 20% cheaper and a few things just stayed the same. Well that makes me even more curious about what orks are going to get.