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RedNoak wrote:
so the real question is... 80points for orks or 50 for gretchin? which gonna be our mandetory troops choice?

10 boyz don't do jack, so might as well save yourself the 30 points.


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cody.d. wrote:
MSU units of warbikers may still have a purpose. With how easy it could be to tag units, a lot of factions have lost their ability to fallback and shoot with flying units. Tagging a leman russ still has a lot of value. And if someone is silly enough to park 2 or more units in a building you can dash in, only get overwatched by both and make it into engagement range with both levels. As long as they don't have decent melee it could be worth the trade as you control their movement.

Sorry, but MSU warbikers are a relic of the past that has never been a thing in 8th and probably won't be in 9th either. The only way to get any mileage out of them is by using stratagems on them and surrounding enemies - both require large units.
Overwatch is pretty much dead in 9th unless there are multiple flamers or extreme rates of fire involved, everyone has better things to do with 1CP now that PA is complete.
You also don't need decent melee to kill them. A support character and a unit is usually enough to kill two or three, if something with a decent close combat weapon like a chaos lord gets involved, they are gone. Or more likely, the unit that is fighting them falls back and you get blow to smithereens by grenades, pistols and other secondary arms fire.

In addition, a MSU unit is 81 points. A KBB is 90 - why on earth you waste a FA slot on warbiker unit of you can have a buggy instead? Slots are limited in 9th and 1-3 buggies is actually a very good way to fill them.

I have played warbikers a lot in 8th, anything less than 12 is just muckin' about.

Christ, a KBB is only 90? Yeah, that's a way better use of points.

Buggies actually came out looking hot. And our SJD now caps at a bottom of 4+ to hit for the gun that matters.

No, the faq makes the SJD's rifle BS3.
It works same as before.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
No, the faq makes the SJD's rifle BS3.
It works same as before.

Capped negative hit modifiers means that the Plasma gun only hits at worse on a 4+ as it's treated as BS3+ to hit (IE: it's hit range is 2 to 4).

blaktoof wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Don' t forget the impact of blast rules on SSAG. SSAG shooting on blob of anything with 10+ models shoots 12 x s7(random) ap-5 d6. It means, it' s almost autokill for another hordes or semi-hordes. 10 squad of terminators?.....

And it' s pretty hard to kill him, if you use the standard set of tricks (kff, grots in the basement, grot oiler....). So some significant point increase is ok IMHO. But so much? Well...we' ll see.

Except in 9th it will be easier to kill any character. 12 shots sounds amazing until you realize you spent a relic slot and a CP for the detachment unlock to get that, and then you are firing at BS 5+, and that you are orks and don't get "re-roll miss" like other factions may. So yeah 12 shots, you will likely get 4 hits on 11+ models not 10+. The reality then sets in you likely should have just shot it at some vehicle. Against units of 6-10 you get minimum 3 hits for the 2d6 roll.

Ya even with deathskulls it’s better to shoot monsters and vehicles which fortunately is going to be all over this edition... however if you do lack targets and someone is still running 11+ unit might as well. Problem is SSAG is better for multi wound targets not Cheap swarms.

Wonder if twin skorcha deff dreads will be viable?

Been working on a straight forward spreadsheet if you want to see the points differences. Overall fairly tame, a few things like stormboyz and Flashgits going up by 25% isn't great though.

You forgot Killa Kans (not blaming you, GW seems to have as well). Went up 24% or 30%, for rokkit and big shootas, respectively.

Which makes me think that they were using the pre-CA points for them. Then we'd only be talking a 10% increase on the BS variety and a 5% on the rokkits (as that gun went down 2pts), which seems more in line with what you'd expect for an underused unit. Perhaps the same thing happened with Flash Gitz?

 Trimarius wrote:
You forgot Killa Kans (not blaming you, GW seems to have as well). Went up 24% or 30%, for rokkit and big shootas, respectively.

Which makes me think that they were using the pre-CA points for them. Then we'd only be talking a 10% increase on the BS variety and a 5% on the rokkits (as that gun went down 2pts), which seems more in line with what you'd expect for an underused unit. Perhaps the same thing happened with Flash Gitz?

More of a case of ran outta time, was doing most of this in a teleconference if i'm honest. But yeah, Kans have quite a few options, hoping Grotzookas will be okay now.

 Trimarius wrote:
You forgot Killa Kans (not blaming you, GW seems to have as well). Went up 24% or 30%, for rokkit and big shootas, respectively.

Which makes me think that they were using the pre-CA points for them. Then we'd only be talking a 10% increase on the BS variety and a 5% on the rokkits (as that gun went down 2pts), which seems more in line with what you'd expect for an underused unit. Perhaps the same thing happened with Flash Gitz?

that would be reasonable to assume... but since no one at GW cares about orks, we wont get em fixed. killa kans are really cool units... but they were bad in 8th and will be more so in 9th.. they are comparable to MANz in durability and damage output just kinda worse and should be priced at such

especially the flashgit part bothered me extremly... beside from ONE tournament list, i never saw them played... guess someone on the playtester team got really butthurt by them

Okay so we got a new FAQ today that adds this little tidbit to when shooting while open topped:

‘When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this
model also apply to its passengers.’

Modifiers are now a defined rule in the core book, and are anything that alters are characteristic.
You know what that means? We can stick Tank Bustas in an open topped battlewagon or trukk and benefit from Boomboyz twice!

This will probably get FAQ'd immediately but it means trukk bustas are back!

Boomboyz – Blow It Up!

The deafeningly loud noise, scattering of debris over a wide area and atomisation of anyone too close make explosives an irresistible lure to many Orks.
Improve the Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics of rokkit and stikkbomb weapons (these are weapons that have the name ‘rokkit’ or ‘stikkbomb’ in their profile e.g. rokkit launcha, stikkbomb chukka), as well as tankbusta bombs, wing missiles, kannons, killkannons, deffkannons, da boomer and lobbas equipped on models in a unit with this Subkultur by 1 (e.g. AP -2 becomes AP -3). Note that for combi-weapons, this bonus only applies to attacks made with the rokkit launcha profile.

First pass at 9th list. Gotta see if ghaz is a supreme commander to tinker with detachments more probably.

Can't you only benefit from a rule with the same name once?

Now I'm curious as to whether more of the weird points outliers are also the result of them not checking on updated points in their spreadsheet (i.e. no one bothered to update it beyond the codex values). That would also explain why the castellan went back to having free guns after the CA nerf. Anyone have more big CA nerfs/buffs that they can think of off the top of their head to compare against?

I'm not sure if "we never bothered to update our own databases" is more comforting than "**** these couple of units in particular", though.

 Trimarius wrote:
Can't you only benefit from a rule with the same name once?

Now I'm curious as to whether more of the weird points outliers are also the result of them not checking on updated points in their spreadsheet (i.e. no one bothered to update it beyond the codex values). That would also explain why the castellan went back to having free guns after the CA nerf. Anyone have more big CA nerfs/buffs that they can think of off the top of their head to compare against?

I'm not sure if "we never bothered to update our own databases" is more comforting than "**** these couple of units in particular", though.

I did look that up, but every ability that *could* stack multiple times says it will not.
ie, My Will Be Done.

Therefore it stacks unless otherwise noted

Also isn't there the issue of abilities not affecting units while inside a vehicle?

cody.d. wrote:
Also isn't there the issue of abilities not affecting units while inside a vehicle?

The new FAQ has modifiers applying from the open topped to the units inside.

‘When they [shoot from open topped], any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this
model also apply to its passengers.’

Additionally, we already have precedent of Kultures applying to units inside transports (Boomboyz is a replacement kulture)

‘In addition, units with this kultur can shoot or charge (but not
both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn – if such a unit is
embarked, it can only do so if the Transport that Fell Back also
has this kultur.’

I'm starting to actually get worked up over Grots at 5ppm, or rather it's the fact that they are the same points as a Guardsman that's bugging me. If they wanted to have a "minimum" point value per model, and that's where Grots had to land - fine, make it whatever you want but ensure that it actually makes sense across the entire game.

There is no tradeoff here that magically makes Grots of a comparable value to a Guardsman - every single stat is worse by at least one point with the exceptions of BS, A, and W, worse guns, just about the only cases you can make towards Grots having hidden value over Guardsmen are their 20+ model buff, DDD, and Grot Shields - except Guardsmen have just as many if not more benefits outside their datasheet like Orders.

This is a fundamental failure of game design, it makes points completely arbitrary because you can't possibly argue that these units have the same value, and worst of all it wouldn't take much to fix it - Guardsmen just had to be more expensive than 5 points if that was the desired minimum. Even 6, while still absurd, wouldn't have been such a smack in the face.

Correct, so in theory if the tank has it the unit inside has it. But, we have the statement that abilities do not affect units inside a transport.

Within the current rulebook it describes aura abilities, but also describes explodes as an ability, as the flamer auto hitting as an ability. If all a units abilities turn off while inside a transport then in theory so would their cultures.

 Tomsug wrote:
Don' t forget the impact of blast rules on SSAG. SSAG shooting on blob of anything with 10+ models shoots 12 x s7(random) ap-5 d6. It means, it' s almost autokill for another hordes or semi-hordes. 10 squad of terminators?.....

And it' s pretty hard to kill him, if you use the standard set of tricks (kff, grots in the basement, grot oiler....). So some significant point increase is ok IMHO. But so much? Well...we' ll see.

Easy to kill. Kill grots first and boom easy. If you are in basement you can be shot as stuff in obscuring terrain can be seen. And besides you aren't then within 3" of mek so he can be shot freely...


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Bigdoza wrote:
I was hella stoked to hop back in for 9th.

I duno if hella feels appropriate anymore lol.

How could they raise ghazgulls points already sigh

Almost everything went up. Ghaz actually rose less than average so effect is basically same as if all had stayed same and he got slight drop.

Staying same would have been same as about 17% drop in 8th ed.

Bigdoza wrote:
First pass at 9th list. Gotta see if ghaz is a supreme commander to tinker with detachments more probably.

Spoiler:

Ork 2000 Pt

* Batallion * ++1395pt++
<Goff>
Ghazghkull - 300
Makari - 65
Big Mek w/KFF - 60

Painboy - 65

Boyz - 29x choppa/slugga - 255
Nob 2x killsaw
Boyz - 29x choppa/slugga - 255
Nob 2x killsaw
Gretchin 50

Deff Dread Mob - 345
x3 Deff Dread, Dread Klaw x2 Skorcha x2
[Orkymatic Pistons]

* Patrol * ++605 pt++
<Grot Mobs>
Weirdboy - 75

Gretchin - 50

Mek Gunz - 240
Smasha Gun x6
Mek Gunz - 240
Smasha Gun x6

I like your list but I would give your dredds -1 to get hit instead of pistons. I might try a similar list soon

tneva82 wrote:
Almost everything went up. Ghaz actually rose less than average so effect is basically same as if all had stayed same and he got slight drop.

Staying same would have been same as about 17% drop in 8th ed.

Agree, Ghaz didn't worse, quite the opposite. Being a monster is no longer all downside, as he can now protect nearby characters and shoot himself out of combat when tarpitted. Smaller boards and new game dynamic also works in his favor as you no longer have to plan around crossing 24" of no-mans land.

Probably still not competitive, but no longer complete garbage.

I'm gonna try to use ghaz.

Got a few regular Tau opponent and probably some necrons coming up soon.

Feel like I could really piss off the armies who dont have damage options in every phase healing ghaz every turn with painboy who cannot be targeted until ghaz dies

 addnid wrote:

Bigdoza wrote:
First pass at 9th list. Gotta see if ghaz is a supreme commander to tinker with detachments more probably.

Spoiler:

Ork 2000 Pt

* Batallion * ++1395pt++
<Goff>
Ghazghkull - 300
Makari - 65
Big Mek w/KFF - 60

Painboy - 65

Boyz - 29x choppa/slugga - 255
Nob 2x killsaw
Boyz - 29x choppa/slugga - 255
Nob 2x killsaw
Gretchin 50

Deff Dread Mob - 345
x3 Deff Dread, Dread Klaw x2 Skorcha x2
[Orkymatic Pistons]

* Patrol * ++605 pt++
<Grot Mobs>
Weirdboy - 75

Gretchin - 50

Mek Gunz - 240
Smasha Gun x6
Mek Gunz - 240
Smasha Gun x6

I like your list but I would give your dredds -1 to get hit instead of pistons. I might try a similar list soon

-1 to hit for dreads is a must. The Klaw+3 Saws loadout is also 45pts cheaper for the entire squad, but it all depends on how the gamer wants to play those dreads.

There is one reason to be happy about. Marines are paying now 10 pts for the heavy bolter and we pay 5 for the heavy shoota.

My list got hit as any. One change I am looking forward doing is bringing bavk my nob bikers. I have been running a 5man squad of koptas with tw.h.shoota as distraction caniflexes. The price for the lot increased 25 putting them at the same price as 5naked warbiker nobs. Pretty even in output damage and mobility. 1w less maybe a problem but they can also advance and charge with the superbikerboss and have better stratagems to be used on them.

heavybolter was always 10pts
But it has AP1, so its actually capable of doing something (plus marine accuracy)

What I still don't get is why primaris bikers are 4w each.

Because GW is very obviously favoring marines right now. Even more than usual.
Its so obvious it hurts. The "weakest" new thing they got was their new stormshield primaris and even they are pretty bonkers powerful for the cost.
With the exception of the TFC, everybody except marines feels like they got hit with the nerfhammer hard right now. Which would be fine.. everyone gets slammed so its still somewhat fair...but when 1 army somehow didnt get slammed its Eldar of 7th edition all over again.
i'm not shelving my army but i am refusing to play against marines. Even the mono-ultra marine players in my area are like "uhh....i feel cheesy now"

We would kill for that stormshield melee guy, even if we cant put him in a transport. Marine players scoff at it saying its not all that great...that right there shows you how ridiculous that army is when something that makes us go they just push aside.

Imperials were essentially buffed this edition

Ad mech
Marines
Custodes
imperial Guard
All got major buffs

Heck even imperial knights ... for some reason the imperial castellan is 630 pts and the chaos version is 730.
Imperial guard has the cheapest troop choice in game while still being much stronger then grots and all thier plasma and melta special weapons dropped in price.

There was some serious bias this addition...

Madjob wrote:
I'm starting to actually get worked up over Grots at 5ppm, or rather it's the fact that they are the same points as a Guardsman that's bugging me. If they wanted to have a "minimum" point value per model, and that's where Grots had to land - fine, make it whatever you want but ensure that it actually makes sense across the entire game.

There is no tradeoff here that magically makes Grots of a comparable value to a Guardsman - every single stat is worse by at least one point with the exceptions of BS, A, and W, worse guns, just about the only cases you can make towards Grots having hidden value over Guardsmen are their 20+ model buff, DDD, and Grot Shields - except Guardsmen have just as many if not more benefits outside their datasheet like Orders.

This is a fundamental failure of game design, it makes points completely arbitrary because you can't possibly argue that these units have the same value, and worst of all it wouldn't take much to fix it - Guardsmen just had to be more expensive than 5 points if that was the desired minimum. Even 6, while still absurd, wouldn't have been such a smack in the face.

jupp... guardsmen can actually put some damage out. they should have given gretchin some kind of a buff to justify the price hike... idk... a 5++ for beeing so damn sneeky and cautious maybe? at least it would let them be on the same tier as brimstones xD

Edit:
as far as char protecion goes... you could try to hide them behind LOS in a ruin and then activate grotshield when the SAG gets targeted

They are pushing the new hotness worst than crack dealers.

Just look the buggies. So fething stupid .


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Buggies, bombers and gorka+morka, backed by some Orks for OBS sec and maybe MANz or kommandos *MIGHT* be doable, but still all our strats and no possibility to regenerate is a fething pain in the ass