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Warhammer Community has just announced that Wraithknights will be dropping to just over 300 points. How do you think this will affect their presence on the tabletop? Does this make them an auto-include, or merely an auto-consider? I've always loved seeing them on the table but am always reluctant due to the points-price-tag. What do you think?


Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-chapter-approved-matched-playgw-homepage-post-1/

They see some rare play out where I am, even in competitive. So I predict an uptick in table time. I still don't think it's an auto anything. It's never really seen as that big of a threat to me.

The offensive and defensive power of the Wraithknight is still much less than that of an Imperial Knight (even the ones that no one currently plays). I very much doubt they'll be seeing much play.

You'll see more initially, but it will eventually go back to non-existence in competitive play once people realize that they aren't Imperial Knights.

While WKs may have some Psychic Support and decent army traits, IKs having better overall loadouts* and a whole list of good Strats make them far better.
Eldar also have good options elsewhere, so WK have competition in their own army. Even at ~400pts, I'd still rather take 3 Prisms, for example
All this change does it make adding a WK to a casual list less of a liability


*IKs can have a big guns and 5++ in the same builds. WKs only have the overpriced Suncannon variant for this, but that will still be over 100pts more than any of the IK variant that also get a 5++ and big gun.
The WK has 2 variants that must choose between big gun OR 5++, but not both

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 Galef wrote:
You'll see more initially, but it will eventually go back to non-existence in competitive play once people realize that they aren't Imperial Knights.

While WKs may have some Psychic Support and decent army traits, IKs having better overall loadouts* and a whole list of good Strats make them far better.
Eldar also have good options elsewhere, so WK have competition in their own army. Even at ~400pts, I'd still rather take 3 Prisms, for example
All this change does it make adding a WK to a casual list less of a liability


*IKs can have a big guns and 5++ in the same builds. WKs only have the overpriced Suncannon variant for this, but that will still be over 100pts more than any of the IK variant that also get a 5++ and big gun.
The WK has 2 variants that must choose between big gun OR 5++, but not both

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Assuming the guns don't come down.

The way the article is worded makes it sound like WK and 2 HWCs is just a bit over 300, which jives well with a regular Knight being 285 naked with a 5++. But that might just be my optimism.

Darsath wrote:
The offensive and defensive power of the Wraithknight is still much less than that of an Imperial Knight (even the ones that no one currently plays). I very much doubt they'll be seeing much play.

If it costs 300pts, it is in the NDK points cost range and an NDK has worse stats then a WK.

Karol wrote:

Darsath wrote:
The offensive and defensive power of the Wraithknight is still much less than that of an Imperial Knight (even the ones that no one currently plays). I very much doubt they'll be seeing much play.

If it costs 300pts, it is in the NDK points cost range and an NDK has worse stats then a WK.

NDK points are obviously coming down, given what they’ve said about GK and especially given that GMDKs are coming down. Also, quit whining and dragging every thread off topic into a GK discussion.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The way the article is worded makes it sound like WK and 2 HWCs is just a bit over 300, which jives well with a regular Knight being 285 naked with a 5++. But that might just be my optimism.

Definitely your optimism. The article says the following:

now costing a little over 300 points, rather than over 400 before weapons!

I take that to mean 300pts before weapons, just like it's currently 402pts before weapons.

But if it does mean you can get a standard WK (including 2 HWCs) at just over 300pts, than you will absolutely see them popping up in the Meta. I'll personally be taking 3 if that happens, but I really don't think it will, nor do I want a repeat of 7E cry-babying about the OP WK.

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I talk about GK, because it is the army I play. I don't see other people stoping about talking about talking about their IG being "fair" priced or soup eldar not being "that powerful".

Also if all things scale down in points, then the change is that better armies get more out of getting extra points. A very good army, can fit 300-400pts of a not the best units, a bad army that gets "free" 300-400 still won't be able run weaker units.

Karol wrote:
I talk about GK, because it is the army I play. I don't see other people stoping about talking about talking about their IG being "fair" priced or soup eldar not being "that powerful".

Also if all things scale down in points, then the change is that better armies get more out of getting extra points. A very good army, can fit 300-400pts of a not the best units, a bad army that gets "free" 300-400 still won't be able run weaker units.

I think the point of CA isn't to just scale down the points on everything, but to readjust the balance.
WKs and GK units are scaling down in points because they need to. Cultist and very likely Guard are scaling UP.

So the armies that current don't have much extra points to spend will have some, while armies that can currently field TOO much will have to take out a unit or 2 from their lists.

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Will really depend on the cost of weapons. If it's 300pts before weapons (seems like a reasonably assumption but we'll see) then it would be 400pts with 2 Heavy Wraith Cannons if they are unchanged, which is still rubbish as it will still be horribly undergunned and under protected.

Lets remmber that a single Rapid Fire Battle Cannon has a maximum damage output of 36 wounds from 2D6 shots, compared to the 12 of a single HWC from it's paltry 2 shots.

Remember that 300pts is before wargear, if wargear doesnt change that another 100pts.

So we are looking at 350-400 for the basic weapon, then add another X amount for the shoulder guns if you want those (you always take at least 1 for the shield and sword to fire and fade).

In reality its 365-415pts, thats what it should have been from the start.



Quote from the article "now costing a little over 300 points, rather than over 400 before weapons"

 Imateria wrote:
Lets remmber that a single Rapid Fire Battle Cannon has a maximum damage output of 36 wounds from 2D6 shots, compared to the 12 of a single HWC from it's paltry 2 shots.

But you can't compare 1 HWC to a RFBC, you have to compare it to both HWCs as you have no choice but to take 2. It's still only max 24 wounds on 4 total shots, so the RFBC ends up being better/more versatile, but we don't want to give the MonKeigh the impression that we are humble.

I kinda feel the HWC will go down as it's barley better than a Twin-Lascannon, which is rumored to be going down as well.
But I still don't expect a fully deck out WK to be under 400pts, unless it's the Sword/Shield variant with 2 Shuricannons

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Quote from the article "now costing a little over 300 points, rather than over 400 before weapons"

I agree with your assumption that the 300 is likely also before weapons, but there is some vagary in the wording that could imply that a WK with HWCs is just over 300pts, rather than over 400 before weapons.
There is not a hard indication that the "before weapons" applies to both numbers, though it probably does.

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Karol wrote:
I talk about GK, because it is the army I play. I don't see other people stoping about talking about talking about their IG being "fair" priced or soup eldar not being "that powerful".

Also if all things scale down in points, then the change is that better armies get more out of getting extra points. A very good army, can fit 300-400pts of a not the best units, a bad army that gets "free" 300-400 still won't be able run weaker units.

This thread has nothing to do with your GK.

On topic: I suppose the only way we'll know if they're worth taking is when we see if they're just over 300 before or after weapons. If before, well I guess my WK will remain on its sprue for the foreseeable future.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I suppose the only way we'll know if they're worth taking is when we see if they're just over 300 before or after weapons. If before, well I guess my WK will remain on its sprue for the foreseeable future.

Agreed, although if it turns out to be 300pts AFTER weapons, prepare yourselves for the same level of complaining from non-Eldar players as there was in 7E

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Well, I appreciate that they are at leas trying to fix it, whether the point drop is enough remains to be seen. However, I would have really preferred them to make it better instead of cheaper; it just seems wrong that Imperium has qualitatively better knights than the Eldar. Though there is that Wraith Host formation in the Vigilus book, so that may give the Wraithknight some buffs.

 Imateria wrote:
.

Lets remmber that a single Rapid Fire Battle Cannon has a maximum damage output of 36 wounds from 2D6 shots, compared to the 12 of a single HWC from it's paltry 2 shots.

That's a little misleading as the RFBC is S8 AP2 and the HWC is S16 AP4 D6. It all depends on what you want to shoot.

It also depends what else changes, some of the wargear might go down, there are many rumors that many high points guns no one takes are also going down.

Also lots of rumors that a lot of units are going up (even the community page said it).

If over all the gap from gets closer from both sides, players might take completely different lists in all armies.


And the Formation like @Crimson said, could give it that little extra it needed.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I appreciate that they are at leas trying to fix it, whether the point drop is enough remains to be seen. However, I would have really preferred them to make it better instead of cheaper; it just seems wrong that Imperium has qualitatively better knights than the Eldar. Though there is that Wraith Host formation in the Vigilus book, so that may give the Wraithknight some buffs.

Arguably, if a WK is a bit cheaper that its equivalent IK, they would be better.
One of the things that makes WKs worse right now (beside the cost) is that they are too specialized. But that's kind of Eldar's thing.

The HWC WK is specifically good against other large targets (like IKs) but kinda blows against smaller targets per point.
But that's perfectly fluffy for Eldar not to have a TACs unit, they just need to be costed correctly

IKs otoh, can fill a variety of roles which will mean they will always be "better" if the points are the same
Or more specifically, IKs don't have to choose between having a 5++ or a big gun like WKs. They have several options for both

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 Galef wrote:
Arguably, if a WK is a bit cheaper that its equivalent IK, they would be better.

That's not what I meant, and that's why I said 'qualitatively better.' I mean the Eldar Knights should be more powerful than the Imperial ones, just like a Custodian is more powerful than a Space Marine. (And of course should pay appropriate points for that power.)

 Galef wrote:
You'll see more initially, but it will eventually go back to non-existence in competitive play once people realize that they aren't Imperial Knights.

While WKs may have some Psychic Support and decent army traits, IKs having better overall loadouts* and a whole list of good Strats make them far better.
Eldar also have good options elsewhere, so WK have competition in their own army. Even at ~400pts, I'd still rather take 3 Prisms, for example
All this change does it make adding a WK to a casual list less of a liability


*IKs can have a big guns and 5++ in the same builds. WKs only have the overpriced Suncannon variant for this, but that will still be over 100pts more than any of the IK variant that also get a 5++ and big gun.
The WK has 2 variants that must choose between big gun OR 5++, but not both

-

2 variants?

I thought the three possible were double WC (no 5++), Suncannon (5++) and Sword and Board (5++)?

Also, FWIW, there's no telling whether the Suncannon variant is indeed still overpriced if we know their prices are getting a hefty drop.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Arguably, if a WK is a bit cheaper that its equivalent IK, they would be better.

That's not what I meant, and that's why I said 'qualitatively better.' I mean the Eldar Knights should be more powerful than the Imperial ones, just like a Custodian is more powerful than a Space Marine. (And of course should pay appropriate points for that power.)

But my point was that they ARE more powerful....at only a specific thing.
The Sword/Board WK, for example has its 5++ even in melee and ergo is better at melee than an IK
The HWC WK is far better at killing other Knights than an IK.

The problem is that most IK builds can melee better than a shooting WK AND shoot better than a melee WK. In the same build.
Added salt comes with the Suncannon WK which SHOULD be better/equivalent to any build of IK, but cost almost double

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
You'll see more initially, but it will eventually go back to non-existence in competitive play once people realize that they aren't Imperial Knights.

While WKs may have some Psychic Support and decent army traits, IKs having better overall loadouts* and a whole list of good Strats make them far better.
Eldar also have good options elsewhere, so WK have competition in their own army. Even at ~400pts, I'd still rather take 3 Prisms, for example
All this change does it make adding a WK to a casual list less of a liability


*IKs can have a big guns and 5++ in the same builds. WKs only have the overpriced Suncannon variant for this, but that will still be over 100pts more than any of the IK variant that also get a 5++ and big gun.
The WK has 2 variants that must choose between big gun OR 5++, but not both

-

2 variants?

I thought the three possible were double WC (no 5++), Suncannon (5++) and Sword and Board (5++)?

Also, FWIW, there's no telling whether the Suncannon variant is indeed still overpriced if we know their prices are getting a hefty drop.

I was specifically saying that 2 of the three variants have to choose their role, while the 3rd (Suncannon shield) is actually similar in function to most IK build, but pays almost twice as much for that privilege

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Woooo this is great news. The model is one of the best in the game, and this makes them viable - not bleeding edge, but viable. You can have a job for them to do, and they can do it.

Will Iyanden + Ghostglaive + Psytronome + a cheap shoulder gun for Fire&Fade be a thing now? It'll probably come in at around 370pts. That's a big angry wraith that will 1-shot a knight in CC if you let it get close. Pretty decent bullet magnet, while still not being close to a Gallant, but that's fair enough.

I've always been reluctant to board my wraithknight (didn't have one in 7e) but think that i may be undervaluing it in my mind in conjunction with Eldrad. Maybe his point drop + the wraithknight drop will put the combo in a good (if not fun) position.

Everyone is forgetting the hidden gem in all of this. As the base WK drops, so should the Skathach variant! Those Deathshroud cannons are pretty tasty, and the ability to Webway in means you're guaranteed a full round of shooting at the highest level, with the opportunity for a fortune thrown in.

The price decrease is much needed but in a tourney meta everyone will be tooled to deal with the inevitable IK match up - if you can take down a knight you can take down a WK easier.

In casual play, I'm sure my LGS will see these on the table more occasionally now at least which is good for variety.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Everyone is forgetting the hidden gem in all of this. As the base WK drops, so should the Skathach variant! Those Deathshroud cannons are pretty tasty, and the ability to Webway in means you're guaranteed a full round of shooting at the highest level, with the opportunity for a fortune thrown in.

Yes, the weapon options for the Scathach are pretty good, combined with the ability to deep strike, but it needs to drop by something like 200pts! I'm not sure GW would be willing to go that far to make it usable, I mean that's a 1/3rd of it's cost on a LoW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I appreciate that they are at leas trying to fix it, whether the point drop is enough remains to be seen. However, I would have really preferred them to make it better instead of cheaper; it just seems wrong that Imperium has qualitatively better knights than the Eldar. Though there is that Wraith Host formation in the Vigilus book, so that may give the Wraithknight some buffs.

Arguably, if a WK is a bit cheaper that its equivalent IK, they would be better.
One of the things that makes WKs worse right now (beside the cost) is that they are too specialized. But that's kind of Eldar's thing.

The HWC WK is specifically good against other large targets (like IKs) but kinda blows against smaller targets per point.
But that's perfectly fluffy for Eldar not to have a TACs unit, they just need to be costed correctly

IKs otoh, can fill a variety of roles which will mean they will always be "better" if the points are the same
Or more specifically, IKs don't have to choose between having a 5++ or a big gun like WKs. They have several options for both

-

The problem with your assumption here is that the Wraithknight is not any good at it's specialisations regardless of loadout. With only 4 shots and random damage that is only D6, the HWC variant is terrible at taking out anything bigger than a rhino, most Knight load outs are much better at dropping vehicles and even other Knights thanks to a mix of quantity with quality. The Suncannn is laughable due to it's comparitively low volume of shots as well as it's ridiculous 118pt price tag.

Unless actual stats are changed, the Wraithknight needs to be considerably cheaper than an Imperial Knight because it's damage output with any loadout against almost any target is just flat out worse.

Lets test that with math!

Yep... WK with 2 HWC only does 7.8 wounds on average to a Rhino while not damaged!

What about guide? Hmm much better, 10.3 wounds

So a current 502pt dedicated shooting unit can not kill 1 Rhino outside of cover. Nice.

Even at 400pts, its still bad, thats 20% your army shooting at 3.6% of their army and it cant kill it.

I've wanted a Wraithknight for a while (just looking for a solid centrepiece for my Craftworld army). I only play narrative based games, so competitive play isn't of interest to me. However, the current Wraithknight is so bad I've refused to buy one, as I know I'd just get angry trying to field it. And I field almost everything in the codex.

I don't think a Wraithknight will approach an Imperial Knight in gaming strength (though, fluff-wise they should probably be superior to a Knight), but I just want it to not be a total embarassment.

The weapons are extremely mediocre when compared to other super-heavy vehicles, and unfortunately the shoulder weapons are limited to the most mediocre of the support weapons. Being able to mount bright lances or even simple missile launchers would have bumped the Wraithknight's versatility up a tad. I do hope the weapons get point-adjusted as well. I would arguably field a Wraithknight in the mid-300's and not hate myself for it.

 Imateria wrote:

The problem with your assumption here is that the Wraithknight is not any good at it's specialisations regardless of loadout. With only 4 shots and random damage that is only D6, the HWC variant is terrible at taking out anything bigger than a rhino, most Knight load outs are much better at dropping vehicles and even other Knights thanks to a mix of quantity with quality. The Suncannn is laughable due to it's comparitively low volume of shots as well as it's ridiculous 118pt price tag.

Yep. And this is why I said I would have preferred it getting better (i.e. more powerful) rather than cheaper. It is just ludicrous how much better the Imperial knights are than the Eldar equivalents, even though the latter are supposed to have vastly superior tech.