Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I find it weird how much Doom seems to be reviled.

It's not really the spell itself, but what can make use of it. e.g. Full wound rerolls from haywire weapons can get quite disturbing.

Yeah, the loudest outcries against Doom seem to be Knight players vs Haywire spam and Marine players vs Dissie spam. Neither of those exist in a pure CWE list

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I find it weird how much Doom seems to be reviled.

It's not really the spell itself, but what can make use of it. e.g. Full wound rerolls from haywire weapons can get quite disturbing.

Indeed, it is very powerful against that lone target. However, it is still a single target. RG gives ALL UM units within 6" full re-rolls for both hits and wounds. Aeldari players don't go after that ability with pitchforks in the same manner...

Certain things are only great or perceived to be OP because of how the meta changes. Doom is great against what is hot right now, big expensive units, like knights, or massive Loota units, etc. Take Doom against a more MSU army, like Drukhari, and it kinda sucks.

Same thing with Haywire, the Harlequin book wasn't a big deal when it came out, just made sure the Quins had a viable anti-vehicle source and they weren't OP. Even taking more than 6 Skyweavers was considered risky because if you pulled an opponent with little to no vehicles you were going to have a rough time. Take a pile of Skyweavers against Nids and you're hosed. Then Knights are the next thing to drop and get insanely popular, so Haywire becomes the Eldar counter to easy-button knight soup.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any adjustments, but expecting certain things to have no hard counters doesn't seem quite right either. There should be some risk involved in dropping 500+ points on a single unit.

 Galef wrote:
Ynnari is a whole other bag of catladies and we all know it. There should be no such thing as YNNARI units aside for the 3 Characters handing out Auras. And those Characters should be able to be added to any AELDARI detachment without affecting or benefiting from the detachment trait. SFD should be a stratagem they "unlock". but not a unit-to-unit special ability

There's no need to over-tax a Farseer just because other factions have messed up rules/undercosted options.
Just like there was no reason to add a "Farseer/Warlock" tax on a WK since you're already paying for the Farseer/Warlock. It seems GW are starting to realize this.

-

This is the issue though they are removing that tax from the units but I still honestly believe that The craftworld codex would be a lot better for psychers being more expensive and the units being cheaper.
Yannari charictors should have much higher points costs to offset the insane buffs they hand out with SFD.

Knight players don't get to complain, fething period. They're running absurd overpowered cheese and can freaking deal with there being exactly 1 counter to their ridiculous nonsense.

Your T8, 28W model that has a 3++ invulnerable save should have some weaknesses. Deal with it.

Don't want Haywire to kill your Knights? Admit that dedicated anti-tank should be able to hurt it.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
Certain things are only great or perceived to be OP because of how the meta changes. Doom is great against what is hot right now, big expensive units, like knights, or massive Loota units, etc. Take Doom against a more MSU army, like Drukhari, and it kinda sucks.

Same thing with Haywire, the Harlequin book wasn't a big deal when it came out, just made sure the Quins had a viable anti-vehicle source and they weren't OP. Even taking more than 6 Skyweavers was considered risky because if you pulled an opponent with little to no vehicles you were going to have a rough time. Take a pile of Skyweavers against Nids and you're hosed. Then Knights are the next thing to drop and get insanely popular, so Haywire becomes the Eldar counter to easy-button knight soup.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any adjustments, but expecting certain things to have no hard counters doesn't seem quite right either. There should be some risk involved in dropping 500+ points on a single unit.

The thing with the meta is that it's very much about force multipliers, real MSU armies are fairly rare because you get far more benefit out of those multipliers on big units. We'd probably need a new edition for that to change.

Bharring wrote:
"Do Yannari looke the Aysurani keyword?
It really should be tied to Craftworld units"

So Asurmen and Baharoth shouldn't benefit from it?

(Or, I could be more pedantic and say, so it should only be worthwhile when fighting other CWE? But that's clearly not what you meant.)

Smite doesn't only target friendly models. Or most other powers that target *enemy* models.

Also, note that a Farseer can't have Doom, Fortune, and Guide - they only get two.

Doom is only really good when facing deathstars or superheavies. If the opponent has neither, it has very limited impact.

I think you know what I ment but I'll explain it incase.
Doom should have had Friendly craftworld units shooting at this target can reroll all wounds
Why should an Alitoc farseer help Bel tain units etc it was more a way to try and get around the Yannari issue as that should realy replace the Craftworld keyword so it would prevent stacking doom and Yannri buffs or drukkari and Harlequins benifiting from buffs they arn't ballanced with acrss too.

 Marmatag wrote:
Knight players don't get to complain, fething period. They're running absurd overpowered cheese and can freaking deal with there being exactly 1 counter to their ridiculous nonsense.

Your T8, 28W model that has a 3++ invulnerable save should have some weaknesses. Deal with it.

Don't want Haywire to kill your Knights? Admit that dedicated anti-tank should be able to hurt it.

For once I couldn't agree with you more if I tried.

 Marmatag wrote:
Knight players don't get to complain, fething period. They're running absurd overpowered cheese and can freaking deal with there being exactly 1 counter to their ridiculous nonsense.

Your T8, 28W model that has a 3++ invulnerable save should have some weaknesses. Deal with it.

Don't want Haywire to kill your Knights? Admit that dedicated anti-tank should be able to hurt it.

I like how you say knight's players then list off the imperial soup formation of choice. A pure knights list is never running a 3++ dominus class as it's way too many CP from their limited number. Much harder when you dont have guard providing 12 CP and screening. Because the 3++ disappears in CC.

Ice_can wrote:
Why should an Alitoc farseer help Bel tain units etc it was more a way to try and get around the Yannari issue as that should realy replace the Craftworld keyword so it would prevent stacking doom and Yannri buffs or drukkari and Harlequins benifiting from buffs they arn't ballanced with acrss too.

Should null zone only remove invulnerable saves that would be taken against the faction which cast that power?

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Knight players don't get to complain, fething period. They're running absurd overpowered cheese and can freaking deal with there being exactly 1 counter to their ridiculous nonsense.

Your T8, 28W model that has a 3++ invulnerable save should have some weaknesses. Deal with it.

Don't want Haywire to kill your Knights? Admit that dedicated anti-tank should be able to hurt it.

I like how you say knight's players then list off the imperial soup formation of choice. A pure knights list is never running a 3++ dominus class as it's way too many CP from their limited number. Much harder when you dont have guard providing 12 CP and screening. Because the 3++ disappears in CC.

People need to stop talking about "pure" lists like they have innate value, and that they must be protected and respected.

This game isn't about pure lists, and it never has been.

It's not my fault if you can't find the 180 points to get infinite command points for your silly cheeseball army, because literally everyone else can.

And oh, let's all cry and wring our hands for the T8, 28W, relic-stuffed monstrosity that only has a PATHETIC 4++ invulnerable save, and a 6+++, and can stand back up after being killed. Moment of silence, please.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I find it weird how much Doom seems to be reviled.

It's not really the spell itself, but what can make use of it. e.g. Full wound rerolls from haywire weapons can get quite disturbing.

Indeed, it is very powerful against that lone target. However, it is still a single target. RG gives ALL UM units within 6" full re-rolls for both hits and wounds. Aeldari players don't go after that ability with pitchforks in the same manner...

- SM don't have Haywire
- BobbyG alone almost costs more than 3 VWs or 3 Dissie Ravagers plus a Farseer. This leaves a lot less army to do other things and confines them to a bubble.
- Most armies are not UM and/or are not running BobbyG

"Doom should have had Friendly craftworld units shooting at this target can reroll all wounds"
No Banshee love? (I'm sorry, that was a joke, like the first two lines from my earlier post - I know what you meant.)

"Why should an Alitoc farseer help Bel tain units etc it was more a way to try and get around the Yannari issue as that should realy replace the Craftworld keyword so it would prevent stacking doom and Yannri buffs or drukkari and Harlequins benifiting from buffs they arn't ballanced with acrss too."
Why should Null Zone cast by Tiggy not impact a Demon Prince when Imperial Guard are shooting at it?
Further, should the affected Demon Prince not be penalized when manifesting a power if it's going to affect IG doods? How do you tell the difference?

Should an UltraMarine Lascannon fired at a Land Raider have no relevance when an Imperial Guard Lascannon fires at the same Land Raider? Not really sure how that would work.

I get that Doom is good. But Marines have a reroll-Wound aura, and an even cheaper reroll-wounds-of-1 aura. While these don't affect non-faction models, they're a lot less restrictive than only-affects-one-target. And that's on top of having to manifest, be in range of the enemy, and the risk of denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobby G is easily 3 times better than a Farseer with Doom and Guide. And you can't duplicate, much less triplicate, Doom or Guide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, SM do have Haywire, although with a Heavy 1 profile:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Scouts-with-Sniper-Rifles-2017

Bharring wrote:
"Doom should have had Friendly craftworld units shooting at this target can reroll all wounds"
No Banshee love? (I'm sorry, that was a joke, like the first two lines from my earlier post - I know what you meant.)

"Why should an Alitoc farseer help Bel tain units etc it was more a way to try and get around the Yannari issue as that should realy replace the Craftworld keyword so it would prevent stacking doom and Yannri buffs or drukkari and Harlequins benifiting from buffs they arn't ballanced with acrss too."
Why should Null Zone cast by Tiggy not impact a Demon Prince when Imperial Guard are shooting at it?
Further, should the affected Demon Prince not be penalized when manifesting a power if it's going to affect IG doods? How do you tell the difference?

Should an UltraMarine Lascannon fired at a Land Raider have no relevance when an Imperial Guard Lascannon fires at the same Land Raider? Not really sure how that would work.

I get that Doom is good. But Marines have a reroll-Wound aura, and an even cheaper reroll-wounds-of-1 aura. While these don't affect non-faction models, they're a lot less restrictive than only-affects-one-target. And that's on top of having to manifest, be in range of the enemy, and the risk of denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobby G is easily 3 times better than a Farseer with Doom and Guide. And you can't duplicate, much less triplicate, Doom or Guide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, SM do have Haywire, although with a Heavy 1 profile:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Scouts-with-Sniper-Rifles-2017

1 MW on a 6+ is definataly comparable to 1 on a 4 or 5 and D3 on a 6+

Bobby G also can't allow a Knight to reroll all wounds.

A named CM and LT comes in at 230 points which is the cheapest you get reroll al hits and wound rolls of 1.

Bharring wrote:


Bobby G is easily 3 times better than a Farseer with Doom and Guide. And you can't duplicate, much less triplicate, Doom or Guide.

At the cost of more than 3 Farseers plus needing other models that cost much more than their Eldar counterparts.

Also, SM do have Haywire, although with a Heavy 1 profile:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Scouts-with-Sniper-Rifles-2017

Yea - totally comparable....

Ice_can wrote:

A named CM and LT comes in at 230 points which is the cheapest you get reroll al hits and wound rolls of 1.

Then don't buy a named CM. That's what I do, and my HQ's are about 150 points, total. All it takes is 3CP. Imo, it's a must-have to ignore those pesky 2's.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bharring wrote:


Bobby G is easily 3 times better than a Farseer with Doom and Guide. And you can't duplicate, much less triplicate, Doom or Guide.

At the cost of more than 3 Farseers plus needing other models that cost much more than their Eldar counterparts.

Also, SM do have Haywire, although with a Heavy 1 profile:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Scouts-with-Sniper-Rifles-2017

Yea - totally comparable....

RG allows re-rolls for everyone (UM) on EVERYTHING. Doom works on a SINGLE enemy unit. Guide works on a SINGLE Asuryani unit.

As to your earlier statement that not everyone plays Space Marines, as it turns out, not everyone plays Aeldari. Here's the most played armies over the past two weeks. Can you spot the Aeldari armies in there because I can't...

November 28th – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 5 Weeks 2: Orks = 2 Weeks 3: Adeptus Astartes +4 4: Tau Empire +2 5: Tyranids -1 6: Astra Militarum -3 7: Adepta Sororitas -2 8: Necrons (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines = 2 weeks 10: Death Guard -2
November 21st – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 4 Weeks 2: Orks +6 3: Astra Militarum = 2 Weeks 4: Tyranids +2 5: Adepta Sororitas +2 6: Tau Empire -4 7: Adeptus Astartes -3 8: Death Guard (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines -4 10: Space Wolves (new)

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/40k-top-list-of-the-week-november-28th-tyranid-nom-to-victory.html

"A named CM and LT comes in at 230 points which is the cheapest you get reroll al hits and wound rolls of 1."
That's a hell of a lot cheaper than <number not found> points at which CWE can reroll all hits and wound rolls in an aura.

A Farseer can affect one friendly unit with reroll-hits (shooting only). It can affect one enemy unit with reroll-wounds. Those characters can affect any number of units that'll actually fit inside their aura.

"At the cost of more than 3 Farseers plus needing other models that cost much more than their Eldar counterparts."
Farseers are better than Bobby G right now. But for clarity, what other models does he need to pull it off?

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bharring wrote:


Bobby G is easily 3 times better than a Farseer with Doom and Guide. And you can't duplicate, much less triplicate, Doom or Guide.

At the cost of more than 3 Farseers plus needing other models that cost much more than their Eldar counterparts.

Also, SM do have Haywire, although with a Heavy 1 profile:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Scouts-with-Sniper-Rifles-2017

Yea - totally comparable....

RG allows re-rolls for everyone (UM) on EVERYTHING. Doom works on a SINGLE enemy unit. Guide works on a SINGLE Asuryani unit.

As to your earlier statement that not everyone plays Space Marines, as it turns out, not everyone plays Aeldari. Here's the most played armies over the past two weeks. Can you spot the Aeldari armies in there because I can't...

November 28th – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 5 Weeks 2: Orks = 2 Weeks 3: Adeptus Astartes +4 4: Tau Empire +2 5: Tyranids -1 6: Astra Militarum -3 7: Adepta Sororitas -2 8: Necrons (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines = 2 weeks 10: Death Guard -2
November 21st – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 4 Weeks 2: Orks +6 3: Astra Militarum = 2 Weeks 4: Tyranids +2 5: Adepta Sororitas +2 6: Tau Empire -4 7: Adeptus Astartes -3 8: Death Guard (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines -4 10: Space Wolves (new)

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/40k-top-list-of-the-week-november-28th-tyranid-nom-to-victory.html

Typical BoLS Half a job and now actual content of value.
It's an artical about an unbeatable Nid list that won the largest even but Knights are the most wining faction this week?

It's also not specifying what the minimum size of event is, or a host of other factors that are important. Like I'm sure I could get a 52-0 record with GK at tournaments in one of our local stores as the regulars are more casual players than tourney players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"A named CM and LT comes in at 230 points which is the cheapest you get reroll al hits and wound rolls of 1."
That's a hell of a lot cheaper than <number not found> points at which CWE can reroll all hits and wound rolls in an aura.

A Farseer can affect one friendly unit with reroll-hits (shooting only). It can affect one enemy unit with reroll-wounds. Those characters can affect any number of units that'll actually fit inside their aura.

"At the cost of more than 3 Farseers plus needing other models that cost much more than their Eldar counterparts."
Farseers are better than Bobby G right now. But for clarity, what other models does he need to pull it off?

Reroll all wounds against a target of your choice is more powerful than reroll 1's to wound.

Bobby G is a LoW so you need atleast 2 HQ's at minimum 60 points each who provide a redundant buff to bobby G for that cost. So your in 560 points before you even have anything to benifit from that aura.

I hate tho articales, b.c we dont know the event, no information, i looked up one of the events a month or so ago and it was a 8 man tournament.... really? thats the weeks best, Best out of 8 players?

I also have BCP so i look weekly my self.

Ice_can wrote:

Reroll all wounds against a target of your choice is more powerful than reroll 1's to wound.

That's incredibly context dependent.

"Reroll all wounds against a target of your choice is more powerful than reroll 1's to wound. "
I would agree that reroll all wounds against a target of your choice is more powerful than reroll 1s to wound vs a target of your choice.

But we're talking about a high chance of reroll all wounds against a target within 24" of your squishy premium HQ vs a 100% chace of reroll all 1s to wound against any target from units within the aura of a cheapo HQ.

It depends on what you're facing.

 mokoshkana wrote:

RG allows re-rolls for everyone (UM) on EVERYTHING. Doom works on a SINGLE enemy unit. Guide works on a SINGLE Asuryani unit.

As to your earlier statement that not everyone plays Space Marines, as it turns out, not everyone plays Aeldari. Here's the most played armies over the past two weeks. Can you spot the Aeldari armies in there because I can't...

November 28th – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 5 Weeks 2: Orks = 2 Weeks 3: Adeptus Astartes +4 4: Tau Empire +2 5: Tyranids -1 6: Astra Militarum -3 7: Adepta Sororitas -2 8: Necrons (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines = 2 weeks 10: Death Guard -2
November 21st – 2018 1: Imperial Knights = 4 Weeks 2: Orks +6 3: Astra Militarum = 2 Weeks 4: Tyranids +2 5: Adepta Sororitas +2 6: Tau Empire -4 7: Adeptus Astartes -3 8: Death Guard (new) 9: Chaos Space Marines -4 10: Space Wolves (new)

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/40k-top-list-of-the-week-november-28th-tyranid-nom-to-victory.html

2 weeks is an absurdly narrow outlook and this compiles every single rinky dink tournament out there so I'm not certain it gives us a great idea what the meta is doing.

If you go to FLG's page you can see the scores of top players for each faction and Asuryani/DE/Ynnari/Harlie outscore AA and many others by a healthy margin.

I haven't seen Bobby at a big tournament for a very long time, because realistically you still need to capture objectives and a 6" bubble doesn't facilitate that when the units it buffs want to stand still.

Moko is responding to the claim that not everyone plays Space Marines. His post is about frequency with which an army is played, not with which it places - showing that "Not everyone plays Space Marines" is even less valid than "Not everyone plays CWE".

There's no real argument being made that claims Eldar aren't doing better than Marines.

The argument is how OP DOOM is.

Bharring wrote:
Moko is responding to the claim that not everyone plays Space Marines. His post is about frequency with which an army is played, not with which it places - showing that "Not everyone plays Space Marines" is even less valid than "Not everyone plays CWE".

There's no real argument being made that claims Eldar aren't doing better than Marines.

The argument is how OP DOOM is.

Bang on the money, mate!

Bharring wrote:
Moko is responding to the claim that not everyone plays Space Marines. His post is about frequency with which an army is played, not with which it places - showing that "Not everyone plays Space Marines" is even less valid than "Not everyone plays CWE".

There's no real argument being made that claims Eldar aren't doing better than Marines.

The argument is how OP DOOM is.

Nah. He was couching how OP Doom is not by using the BobbyG whataboutism to which I replied that BobbyG is pretty rare.

He tried to refute this with bad data showing Eldar being played less when the reality is a bit different.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Moko is responding to the claim that not everyone plays Space Marines. His post is about frequency with which an army is played, not with which it places - showing that "Not everyone plays Space Marines" is even less valid than "Not everyone plays CWE".

There's no real argument being made that claims Eldar aren't doing better than Marines.

The argument is how OP DOOM is.

Nah. He was couching how OP Doom is not by using the BobbyG whataboutism to which I replied that BobbyG is pretty rare.

He tried to refute this with bad data showing Eldar being played less when the reality is a bit different.

No, Bharring is correct in my intent, which I noted above. Nice of you to just ignore that and determine my intent for me though. Cheers to that!

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Moko is responding to the claim that not everyone plays Space Marines. His post is about frequency with which an army is played, not with which it places - showing that "Not everyone plays Space Marines" is even less valid than "Not everyone plays CWE".

There's no real argument being made that claims Eldar aren't doing better than Marines.

The argument is how OP DOOM is.

Nah. He was couching how OP Doom is not by using the BobbyG whataboutism to which I replied that BobbyG is pretty rare.

He tried to refute this with bad data showing Eldar being played less when the reality is a bit different.

No, Bharring is correct in my intent, which I noted above. Nice of you to just ignore that and determine my intent for me though. Cheers to that!

So I guess I should just ignore this sentence, because it means absolutely nothing? Cool.

RG allows re-rolls for everyone (UM) on EVERYTHING. Doom works on a SINGLE enemy unit. Guide works on a SINGLE Asuryani unit.

I think we have a handful of reasonable people at risk of talking past eachother here.

Some claims:
I think it's very defensible to claim:
-SM gets played more than CWE
-CWE is "more OP" than SM
-Bobby G's aura is better than a Doom/Guide Farseer before considering points

I think most of us would agree with those 3 points easily. They're each very well grounded.

What we disagree on:
-How OP is DOOM?

Some of us feel it's not as OP as others think for the following reasons:
-It can only impact *one* unit
--This limits it's overall impact
--The game needs more FUs to LoWs and Deathstars, not less
-SM can do something equivelent
--Bobby G does much better
--ChapterMaster/LT does better
--I'd argue that reroll 1s auras for hits/wounds is better than 2 high-WC powers that target 1 unit each - certainly debateable

The big counters to these are
-Deathstars/LoWs are the meta
--Counter-counter: Should they be? Shouldn't we have *more* things that hose them?
-Aeldari are doing really well
--Counter-counter: Aren't IoM Soups doing as well as Aeldari Soups?
-DE/Harlies bring in 1 Farseer and maybe a Troop for DOOM
--IMO, that suggests it's a little overtuned.

I could see a minor uptune of doom (WC9 or +pts to the Farseer), but it's not all that OP as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the "CWE units have their points adjusted for Psykic Powers": I'm not sure I buy that.

1. Reapers and Spears aren't overcosted if you suddenly ignore Psykic powers.
2. Storm Guardians and many other things in the book are bad even *with* the powers

Combine that with:
3. Many things in the book (DAs, for example) are fine even without powers

And I think the better take away is that CWE points are all over the place. The problem with that is that CWE have so many so wildly different unit choices, that if there's any variability in their viability, then some are going to naturally be OP compared to others.

I think the CWE book *doesn't* take Psyker powers into account when balancing the non-psykers. I think that they tracked the book fairly closely to balanced sans-powers, but the variance meant some are naturally OP.

Bharring wrote:
I think we have a handful of reasonable people at risk of talking past eachother here.

Some claims:
I think it's very defensible to claim:
-SM gets played more than CWE
-CWE is "more OP" than SM
-Bobby G's aura is better than a Doom/Guide Farseer before considering points

I think most of us would agree with those 3 points easily. They're each very well grounded.

What we disagree on:
-How OP is DOOM?

Some of us feel it's not as OP as others think for the following reasons:
-It can only impact *one* unit
--This limits it's overall impact
--The game needs more FUs to LoWs and Deathstars, not less
-SM can do something equivelent
--Bobby G does much better
--ChapterMaster/LT does better
--I'd argue that reroll 1s auras for hits/wounds is better than 2 high-WC powers that target 1 unit each - certainly debateable

The big counters to these are
-Deathstars/LoWs are the meta
--Counter-counter: Should they be? Shouldn't we have *more* things that hose them?
-Aeldari are doing really well
--Counter-counter: Aren't IoM Soups doing as well as Aeldari Soups?
-DE/Harlies bring in 1 Farseer and maybe a Troop for DOOM
--IMO, that suggests it's a little overtuned.

I could see a minor uptune of doom (WC9 or +pts to the Farseer), but it's not all that OP as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the "CWE units have their points adjusted for Psykic Powers": I'm not sure I buy that.

1. Reapers and Spears aren't overcosted if you suddenly ignore Psykic powers.
2. Storm Guardians and many other things in the book are bad even *with* the powers

Combine that with:
3. Many things in the book (DAs, for example) are fine even without powers

And I think the better take away is that CWE points are all over the place. The problem with that is that CWE have so many so wildly different unit choices, that if there's any variability in their viability, then some are going to naturally be OP compared to others.

I think the CWE book *doesn't* take Psyker powers into account when balancing the non-psykers. I think that they tracked the book fairly closely to balanced sans-powers, but the variance meant some are naturally OP.

Can't say I've see spears or reapers outside of the Free double double Ynnari detachment to know how balanced they actually are when played as pure craftworld units.