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bogalubov wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.

I think it's perfectly serviceable as a space soap opera.

Serviceable, but you have to admit that it's way better as it got on as opposed to the first 5 novels.

Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.

Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.

Can’t argue with that azrael, the lows of the series were pretty dire, the highs were amazing stories as well, but the padding... so much padding, I can’t really blame them though the heresy has become a multi million pound series that has expanded into games (most bad) and a table top game in its own right.

The only thing I can think of with the same highs and lows are the Star Wars novels and possibly battletech.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.

Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.

I read the first three books in the omnibus format and besides the weirdness of style changing due to having three different authors, it told a coherent and tragic story. It says something to the quality of the writing that I know the ending ahead of time but still felt something once the Massacre was in full swing, it really captured both loyal and chaos space marines perfectly. Since then, yea it's all over the place.

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .

Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.

I read False Gods and Erebus had to try to deceive Horus to get him to join Chaos even with the sword. When Magnus showed up, and tells him not to listen, Horus says he knew Erebus was not Sejanus and said they are both stupid. At the end of the talk, Horus says he has chosen his path. He joined Chaos so the Emperor would not have him forgotten by the Imperium (Horus saw a vision where he was forgotten. And he only thought it was real).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.

Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.

I read the first three books in the omnibus format and besides the weirdness of style changing due to having three different authors, it told a coherent and tragic story. It says something to the quality of the writing that I know the ending ahead of time but still felt something once the Massacre was in full swing, it really captured both loyal and chaos space marines perfectly. Since then, yea it's all over the place.

Most of the Horus Heresy books are poorly written, but I loved Horus Rising.

I'm about half way through the series going in strict chronological order (according to that huge HH reading chart that's floating around) and while there have been plenty of forgettable books, going through them in this manner has definitely enriched my tabletop experience. Even if the plot arcs and characterization aren't perfectly consistent, most of the books still just ooze atmosphere and setting, which is the main draw of 40k anyway. I do remember being pretty confused in the first 3 books when Horus fell. One moment he was fine, the next, "Welp, Horus is a traitor now. Ok. Moving on."

Hmmm... I had a different interpretation with Horus (although I have only listened to the audiobooks and might not have paid attention at all times)....

I thought Horus wanted to stop the Emperor from being worshipped as a god and saw himself as more of a worthy leader of the Imperium.

If it was just that he didn't want to be forgotten (which I thought was only a part of that) then I'm a little disappointed, but it's fun that such a small thing as that might cause all of that destruction and mayhem.

I know a lot of the primarchs are written in a way that they felt abandoned and forgotten by the Emperor.

I think most of the writing in the Horus Heresy books is not too good (I love the Perpetuals, even though they are controversial, but the Perpetuals are besides the point).

ADB and Dan Abnett write good books. But some people take lines in ADB's books too seriously. Like the Emperor "not caring for his children", as that was from the perspective of Arkhan (and ADB even says that in interviews). And what Koja Zu said about the Emperor is a bit out of context. It was clear, as Duskweaver has said, when reading the story that the notion was just Koja Zu expressing her hatred for the Emperor ( ADB even says it was not meant to be a serious suggestion. She was the Emperor's rival, a war criminal, liar and thief who stole the oceans of Terra). It's disappointing that some readers took it as a serious suggestion about the Emperor. (and the Emperor does not seem to breath because when you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. He is not a 16 foot tall heavenly, angelic, golden giant).

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .

Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.

That's it exactly. "A wizard did it". (or magic sword in this case).

There was the possibility to write an absolutely astounding piece of character-driven fiction on an epic scale.

Instead we probably have one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of BL and an astoundingly lazy and directionless narrative for the catalyst of the entire 40k universe. I can't really put into words how disappointed I am by the way it was done (there have been some extremely lengthy posts in the blogsphere which have written far more clearly than I could hope to achieve), but in summary I'd probably say it's one of the main reasons I stopped slavishly awaiting the next HH book release. I still read them from time to time, but for me the chance to make some magic with the series was lost.

Would love ADB or maybe Dan Abnett to have a punt at a 750 mega-page 'Fall of Horus'. Try and add some depth and complexity to why things played out as they did. But I'm not very hopeful that it will ever get done.

 Pacific wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .

Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.

That's it exactly. "A wizard did it". (or magic sword in this case).

There was the possibility to write an absolutely astounding piece of character-driven fiction on an epic scale.

Instead we probably have one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of BL and an astoundingly lazy and directionless narrative for the catalyst of the entire 40k universe. I can't really put into words how disappointed I am by the way it was done (there have been some extremely lengthy posts in the blogsphere which have written far more clearly than I could hope to achieve), but in summary I'd probably say it's one of the main reasons I stopped slavishly awaiting the next HH book release. I still read them from time to time, but for me the chance to make some magic with the series was lost.

Would love ADB or maybe Dan Abnett to have a punt at a 750 mega-page 'Fall of Horus'. Try and add some depth and complexity to why things played out as they did. But I'm not very hopeful that it will ever get done.

That's a load of crap. Erebus had to try and manipulate Horus even with the Chaos sword. He had to tell him lies about the Emperor to get him to even consider joining, and at the end of the talk, Horus said he made his choice.

Yes. The entire series is poo.

pm713 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, given his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my mean father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:

Spoiler:

"in the future you'll be forgotten and you where made from chaos"

Horus just fraking bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.

That's a bit over simplified. Fulgrim was around a Demon for years and gradually fell and only completed things when he went a bit nuts killing Ferus and Horus was stabbed and infected by a Chaos weapon.

Everything sounds stupid when you oversimplify e.g. Dark Angels are Marines but with robes.

That isn't actually much better. A Corruption Score that goes up from close proximity to a demon is not thematically interesting; ultimately it tells you nothing about the character and robs them of their agency. It especially does not work well in a series that's trying to be something of a classical tragedy, the fall needs to be due to fundamental failures of the hero in question for it to have any sort of meaning.

I'm not defending BL in the slightest because, well, see my previous comment, but they did at least attempt to tie his fall to his pride and arrogance.

It loses a lot of impact because everyone - literally, everyone - in the HH series ultimately boils down to "pride and arrogance", but it is there.

Nah, I thought his fall was fine. I actually enjoyed the audio book multiple times.

So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.

Onething123456 wrote:
So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.

That in itself isn't a bad reason to turn traitor. I get the motivation behind the decision. In terms of the writing, I think it was just too quick and we could have done with more time with non-traitor Horus to explore his flaws more fully so that his turn to Chaos has a bit more depth to it. That lack of depth is what leads to the whole thing ending up as if it was just "magic sword, Chaos temple, visions, traitor!"

Onething123456 wrote:
So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.

It's interesting that Chaos pursued so many paths of temptation to try bring Horus under their sway, but the thread that actually won Horus over, was one that no chaos agents had seemed to pull particularly hard on; Horus turned to chaos on his own terms, rather than due to the machinations of others?

It works, you've already got doubts from Horus early on and a sense of weariness. You've got that underlying fear that their time, the legions, is coming to an end , and divisions between brothers. More importantly Horus is given access when he becomes warcaster to incredible forces with little failsafe.

The Chaos powers need a decisive action like Istvaan to seal the deal, it's the point of no return. As you read more volumes more and more back story is added to Horus fall, you can't just read it in the context of volume 1-3.

The initial three books did not do a great job of setting up his fall. Back fill from subsequent novels did a better job of showing that Horus had a lot of personal doubts, flaws and issues. I know that a lot of the primarchs get compared to whinny children/teens but in a lot of ways many of them having stunted grow and severe mental/emotional problems makes sense.

They were lab grown demi gods meant to be raised in a very sheltered environment that got tossed out into the stars. Even they best parents would have not been truly up to the task of raising them right and they really couldn't relate to anyone else. Horus was the first to meet Dad and had a unique experience of being the only one for a while before Russ was found. Wolfsbane did a lot to show that he had issues from that day forward and that surprisingly Russ was one of the more well adjusted primarchs.

In fairness most of them had parents who did a decent job raising them like Vulkan. They only went off the rails in the couple of cases where they were too far gone or just horribly mismanaged.

Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.

I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

The point is thought that the sword functions as a plot device, and takes the place of a meaningful rationale as to why Horus would turn against 200 years of family & kinship, and the empire that he played a big role in creating.

I think the disappointing thing for many of us is that we were denied that 'Paradise Lost' plotline that we were all hoping for as being the point at which the 40k universe was created. i.e. that there was a logic to what Horus was doing and why he turned against the Emperor. But actually that logic wasn't really robust enough and so McNeil introduced the catalyst of the magic sword. One nasty dream that there were statues of his brothers and not him, and they'd been forgotten? Hmm yes that might not be enough to explain the incomprehensibly massive decision to turn against the Emperor. To kill his own brothers (bearing in mind that the very concept of marine turning on marine was laughably unthinkable, so starts the 1st book in the series) and to turn everything into ruin.

So - to serve as an alternative to that logical shortcoming (and for us to believe what is happening) we get fevered dreams and, because it's all chaos and weird, evil and unknowable, that's why it all went down.

So for me it's a massive shame and as I said possibly the biggest missed opportunity, certainly to turn the story into a serious piece of literature.

Imagine if we'd had stories of the marines being sent to their deaths and meaninglessly in their thousands while the Emperor looked on impassively? Of proud warriors who had outlived their usefulness being 'euthanized' or stripped of their arms, and left to live in outcast communities? Of worlds which had been pacified by the marines being given to corrupt civilian control? Or a primarch that had done no wrong being hunted down and murdered while his legion were humiliated?
This could have been built up over three or four books to help paint a picture of the Emperor as less than perfect, of someone who was belligerent to the point where mutiny against his rule could actually be believable. But, because this wasn't done, the only way to conceptualise turning against him is to introduce two-dimensional, childish ideas of 'evil' and "a wizard did it".

So, for me the books are perfectly readable. But, I imagine what might have been (and I realise a lot of people might have different ideas of how they imagine GW's universes to be) and I can't help but be disappointed.

Unfortunately, I think that's the case of a lot of literature and films; "this could have been done, but they did that instead"; I have a bigger gripe with how they handled X-Men: Apocalypse's ending than this book (Jean kills Apocalypse instead of going for the Age of Apocalypse style ending where he threatens Magneto's son, and gets himself ripped to shreds with a witty "so much for the strong" from Magneto-seriously missed opportunity there). This book? Nowhere near as bad.

Part of the problem is when they opened the series. I have the same issue with GW time skipping between Gathering Storm and jumping 100 years ahead. I really wish they had covered more of the great crusade in the first few novels rather than back fill it nearly a decade latter. Less tell, more show.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.

I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.

And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.

Right. If they'd known there was going to be 50+ books in the series, they might have done it differently.

But another thing to consider is the scope. They had a lot of stories to tell. Although Horus is a key figure, the whole thing isn't really his story in the way that the prequel trilogy was Anakin's. Yes, it's an unsatisfying heel turn, but it's less important how he turns than just having him turn and telling the stories about what happened in the wake of that.