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pelicaniforce wrote: ADB and forge world who supposedly represent the background right are fetishizing it and it’s pretty bad.
40k and HH are fascist propaganda at this point.
The Lore has always been fascist propaganda, it just seems more threatening now because the world is embracing fascism.
GW now has this narrative about a manichean clash of titans. It used to be that the characters were proles who lived in and fought for a totalitarian system. At the time, living in the north of England, they had this awareness that the IRA were blowing up English targets and the USSR were engaged in an existential showdown with your government and might wipe you out, and you knew that those people had a bit of a point because the UK government was stepping all over you and your neighbors’ communities and didn’t value you at all. Then while you knew this it wasn’t exactly within your ability to just disassociate yourself from the government, or to bring your town somehow over to the side of the republicans or heaven forefend the soviets, whom you were fairly convinced were an evil empire of mind control and starvation. Many of the stories included the protagonist being crushed either by a venal official or just by a remote bureaucracy and climate of suspicion. It was very clear that the protagonists were being used by a giant machine that didn’t act in their interests and that due to where they were born they had very little control over anything.
With the centralization of BL prompts and the Horus Heresy, there are two sides, one of them is mighty and righteous and the other is conniving. It’s downright Wagnerian. Atm the narrative is that maybe Wotan the god of wisdom treats his kids a bit badly, but at least he isn’t the physically weak and greedy kor phaeron and Erebus who steal a magic knife to cowardly have the chosen son stabbed in the back with it. That was ample material for indoctrinating a nation at the time. There aren’t any protagonists trapped in a faceless machine, because they run the war machine now. Even though the imperium is still portrayed as a bit cartoonishly villainous, that’s entirely superficial.
And the subtle condemnation seems to have gotten more and more subtle of late, to the point of nonexistence, since it's difficult to maintain the sort of background criticism of a system when you sprawl out as much as 40k does with so many writers.)
Yeah well the Imperium isn’t a separate thing to the main characters anymore. You’d have people trying to take care of their immediate comrades and defend them against the unjust imperial bureaucracy, and occasionally to do the right thing on a slightly wider scale. Now the characters are actually in charge of the whole thing.
Strg Alt wrote: Too true. Experienced Shadow Runners would use around ten dice for attacks & defence. Though that might have changed over time. Last time I have played was twenty years ago.
Gave up on it half way through 5th edition, the dice inflation was real. Got busted senseless by a public library computer that was rolling 15 dice against me. Doesn't help people were conniving ways to roll 20-30 dice on things starting out by abusing the snot out of poorly thought out stats.
Space Marines shouldn’t be an army. They should be an Elite slot in an Imperial Guard army. And the selection should be for Tacticals only. Maybe Terminators too, in squads of 1-3 models, all with heavy/specialist weapons (Assault Guns, Cyclone Missiles, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammer & Stormshield, etc. - no Storm Bolters & Power Fist)
Considering the ratio of marine to IG, as well as their operational “partnership”, this makes a lot more sense to me than “an entire army of space marines”.
Stormonu wrote: Here’s one I’ve been thinking about recently:
Space Marines shouldn’t be an army. They should be an Elite slot in an Imperial Guard army. And the selection should be for Tacticals only. Maybe Terminators too, in squads of 1-3 models, all with heavy/specialist weapons (Assault Guns, Cyclone Missiles, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammer & Stormshield, etc. - no Storm Bolters & Power Fist)
Considering the ratio of marine to IG, as well as their operational “partnership”, this makes a lot more sense to me than “an entire army of space marines”.
I made this thought experiment a while back and it might actually have been a good idea. It's basically one Codex for the entire Imperium of Man. It removes a lot of the bloat, keeps pretty much all factions beside Custodes, Sister of Silence and inquisition alive ad operate under the idea that most unit have a lot of option when it comes to weapon loadout and veterency bonus. It would still be a large codex though with lots of options. Considering the meta right now, it would change much to the appearence of armies on the tabletop.
Spoiler:
Codex Imperium of Man
HQ
Imperial Guard Commander
HQ choice that automatically comes with specialists as bodyguards and support. Provides mostly tactical bonuses to the entire army thanks to their knowledge of warfare.
Space Marine Lord
HQ choice that has the option of an honored guard that can count some specialists. Provides a small moral bonus to Space Marines and infantry in general and is an extremely powerful fighter, especially in close combat. Can unlock an honor guard squad of Space Marines.
Techpriest Dominus
HQ choice that has the option of a cadre of bodyguards that are very powerful, more then the techpriest itself that provides mostly bonus to vehicles and Adeptus Mechanicus units. Can unlock a techpriest bodyguard unit.
Sister of Battle Living Saint
HQ choice that has the option for an honored guard. Provides a good moral bonus to Sisters of Battle and infantry in general and is a good and very mobile combatant.
Elites
Space Marine Squad
Elite infantry unit that comes with heavy armor and defense, medium firepower, good close combat and exceptional moral. They can be equipped as devastators, terminators, assault, stealth or for tactical flexibility. They are the Swiss knife of elite units.
Platoon of elite stealth-drop guards armed with precise high armor penetration low strength weapons. Can take a few extra weapon, an optional shorter range higher firepower unit with a more mobility after deployment and a leader unit with a bit more close-combat skills that provides more precision and moral.
Ogryn Squad
A squad of cheap, big, dumb close combat unit that can also serve as a tar pit unit or as a mobile cover for the rest of the troop. Can switch from purely close combat to short range heavy, if imprecise firepower. While capable of causing respectable damage, it’s mostly a sponge unit.
Ratling Squad
A squad of cheap and fragile stealth and support sniper fire unit design to pin down or harass the enemy weaker unit or try to pick out their specialists without hurting the rest of the squad. Mostly efficient as a “debuff” unit.
Sicaran Squad
A fast moving, low-mid defense, high damage assassin-like unit that can be either equipped purely for close combat or gain a little bit more defense, short range firepower and less close combat.
Troops
Imperial Guard Platoon (2-6 Imperial Guard Squad, 0-2 Special Weapon Unit, 0-2 Fire Support Unit, 1 Command Squad, 0-1 Sentinel Squadron)
The bread and butter of the Imperium a platoon of troops composed of cheap cannon-fodders that can be armed with a few “weak” special and heavy weapons. They can be followed by better trained Special Weapon units who can have several “weak” special weapons. They can also have a few units providing support with “cheap” heavy weapons. They are led by a small command unit that helps with moral and makes the whole thing mildly efficient. The entire thing can be escorted by fast moving walkers armed with a heavy weapon for extra punch and resilience.
A unit of cyborg enhance troops with better armor and much more powerful weapons than Imperial Guards. They can alter from short range assault firepower to long range precision firepower or cheaper mid range low firepower depending on the loadout. They can have a few special weapon tied to their basic loadout. They can be supported by heavily armored, slow and slightly less precise, but much more powerfully armed servitors. The Alpha Skitarii is a powerful champion that can boost units he stands in or very, very, very close to.
Sister of Battle Choir
A squad of elite troops with very good armor, good close-combat and shooting attack and very good moral. They lack a lot in flexibility as they don’t come in platoon size, neither do they have access to special and heavy weapons beside flamers, but they are ideal to kill light infantry and will hold their line even when face against the best.
Dedicated Transport
Space Marine Rhino
A fast transport tank with a light cannon for close support. It can transport entire Space Marines Squads safely and efficiently. Once dismounted, the tank can still provide descent support to the Space Marines. The cannon can be chosen between a few choices.
Space Marine Drop Pod
A very cheap choice to deploy Space Marines where you want them and when you want them. Once deployed, they are immobile, but do possess two light weapons to add some oomph to the Space Marine once they make their decent.
Imperial Guard Chimera
A surprisingly well armored and armed transport tank design for the good ol’ Imperial Guard infantry, probably too costly to equip every single squad with one, but a few lucky and important ones can certainly use the protection and the impressive firepower.
Sister of Battle Repressor
A very well armored transport tank designed to transport Sisters of Battle in combat. Unlike other transport vehicle, it’s more designed as a mobile bunker than a transport and close support tank.
Tempestus Scion Taurox Prime
A very fast, very heavily armed, but very fragile transport tank designed to transport Tempestus Scion into warzones. It’s also the amongst the costliest too.
Fast Attack
Space Marine Predator
A light and fast tank with an average armor and very good weapons that can be designed for infantry/light vehicle hunting or anti-tank duty. Its reliable, versatile, fast and has a very well trained crew.
Imperial Guard Salamander Recon Tank Squadron
A cheap, open-top, lightly armored, medium firepower tank thank can also extract or insert small squads of Imperial guardsmen who are caught in a tight spot. The tank can be equipped to deal with other light vehicle or flame infantry out of cover. What they lack in quality they take back in numbers.
Imperial Guard Valkyrie
A fighter plane which can carry impressive weapons, good armor and potentially transport capacity for a few extra points. The pilot can be Tempestus trained for extra efficiency. They are extremely fast, but they cost quite a bit.
Sister of Battle Seraphim Choir
Elite Sisters of Battle equipped with pistols and with a powerful jetpack that allows them true flight. They are specialised in coming down form the sky gun blazing, providing some moral boost then jumping back up to reappear later and repeat the same trick.
Adeptus Mechanicus Dragoons Squadron
A Skitarii soldier armed like a jousting knight on a swift war walker which possess an average fire power. They are a form of heavy cavalry unit capable of shattering the enemy in a single charge.
Heavy Support
Imperial Guard Leman Russ Squadron
A slow, heavy and heavily armed tank with several option of cannons. They move slowly up the field blasting everything in sight. They aren’t fancy, but they sure as hell can destroy a target efficiently.
Imperial Guard Mobile Artillery Squadron
If big guns don’t work, try even bigger guns says the smart Imperial Guard officer. These long range cannons might be mounted on fragile and very slow platforms, but they pack a devastating punch, can operated in group and fire outside of line of sight
Adeptus Mechanicus Onagre Dunecrawler
A war walker and medium armored tank whose equipped with a versatile array of powerful weapon. Its more reliable then the Leman Russ, but maybe less powerful overall. All of this allows it to come relatively cheap and in large numbers.
Space Marine Stormraven Gunship
What if a heavily armored and armed tank could fly? That’s what the Stormraven does. It’s a very fast flyer armed nearly as well as a Leman Russ, piloted by a Space Marine tandem and even capable of transporting a squad into the fray. Really, it’s just as versatile and powerful as the Space Marines themselves.
Space Marine Dreadnaught
A Heavier and stronger war walker designed mostly for close combat operated by a deceased hero of a Space Marine Chapter. It compensates its slow speed by being able to deploy via Drop Pod and once it reaches a target, it crushes it. It’s long range firepower isn’t not be underestimated too much though.
Lord of War
Imperial Knight
A massive war walker with more strength in close combat than a Dreadnaught, more firepower than a Leman Russ and a truly massive defense. It costs an arm and a leg and should it be destroyed it’s almost always in a spectacular detonation that can kill friends and foe.
Land Raider
An extremely tough, very well armed, fast tank that can also transport a small army of Space Marines. It’s almost impossible to slow down and is the second cheapest Lords of War of the Imperium
Baneblade
Leman Russ and Basilisk combined in one massive tank platform. A true behemoth of war that slowly drags itself up field to pulverise its target.
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Game over in a missile form. Mostly just for gak and giggles though. The payload is almost impossible to shoot before the last turn or two of the game.
They should release the two missing primarchs and one should be a woman.
Thanks, I needed the free salt.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
All shoot twice/fight twice abilities should be removed. Such big spikes in damage output are very difficult to balance correctly so just get rid of them.
pelicaniforce wrote: ADB and forge world who supposedly represent the background right are fetishizing it and it’s pretty bad.
40k and HH are fascist propaganda at this point.
The Lore has always been fascist propaganda, it just seems more threatening now because the world is embracing fascism.
I always thought it was condemning fascism. Like, the Imperium is obviously fascist and theocratic, and the lore goes gleefully about describing just how absolutely and utterly terrible life in the Imperium is and how terrible the people who rule it are.
It's also supposed to be funny. Like, friendly fire isn't funny IRL, but we laugh about how the IG goes gleefully about launching artillery strikes against their own troops, and the Inquisition executes planets for knowing of its existence. There are civil wars over where to store paperwork.
Sometimes, though I question it's effectiveness. The insertion of humor, while it's what makes the setting fun and endearing, somewhat undermines the sentiment because they're kind of comically stupid and over the top and a far cry from the real fascists. That said, it's a cartoony wargaming setting, I don't think delving too heavily into being a political tract should be its first priority, and the humor is what makes it stand out from other generic sci fi settings and actually makes it fun.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/22 06:36:31
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Yeah, the Imperium has always been a fascist theocratic regime lampooned and hamstrung by its own ridiculousness.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Asherian Command wrote: Knights were a mistake and should've never been introduced to the setting.
There are reasonable odds that Knights have been part of the setting for longer than you've been playing the game. I know that's the case for me, and I've been collecting and/or gaming with 40k stuff for a good 20 years now...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the Imperium has always been a fascist theocratic regime lampooned and hamstrung by its own ridiculousness.
that is like saying something is a comunist capitalist type of regime. Fasist are all about the separation of church and state, and tight link between the goverment and the non public sector. In a theocracy, nothing can exist outside of it, and all public positions are doubled, by exactly the same positions within the church hierarchy, with the church ones always being superior and being able to over turn any decisions made by non clergy officials.
As political systems go the empire is closest to communism. it has cult of personality, and official dialectic that goes through every strata of society. It even has the same type collective head of state, and the super inefficient type of economy that is fueled by working citizents like slaves, while at the same time the whole thing is called The Imperium of Man.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the Imperium has always been a fascist theocratic regime lampooned and hamstrung by its own ridiculousness.
that is like saying something is a comunist capitalist type of regime. Fasist are all about the separation of church and state, and tight link between the goverment and the non public sector. In a theocracy, nothing can exist outside of it, and all public positions are doubled, by exactly the same positions within the church hierarchy, with the church ones always being superior and being able to over turn any decisions made by non clergy officials.
As political systems go the empire is closest to communism. it has cult of personality, and official dialectic that goes through every strata of society. It even has the same type collective head of state, and the super inefficient type of economy that is fueled by working citizents like slaves, while at the same time the whole thing is called The Imperium of Man.
Just no. Nothing you said has anything to do with communism, and the imperium is far too class structured, with wealthy nobles, lots of privleges for groups that don't apply to proletariat, poverty crushed workers, and religious trappings everywhere. It's as far from communism as it's possible to get.
I find it tacky when people paint their Knights in the exact same colors and livery as the Space Marine chapter they are allied with. As if they are being operated by the Chapter itself. You could make an argument for particularly devoted Freeblades but I still am not a fan of this practice. At the end of the day its their models and they can do whatever they want but.. yeah. Not a fan.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Sometimes, though I question it's effectiveness. The insertion of humor, while it's what makes the setting fun and endearing, somewhat undermines the sentiment because they're kind of comically stupid and over the top and a far cry from the real fascists. .
I disagree pretty strongly with this. The humor is a bizarre byproduct of these obscene political systems and the ridiculous oximoronicisms that ideologs use justify them. Go read The Gulag Archipelago or The Black Book of Communism, there is a really disgusting kind of cosmic black humor that underlines these regimes.
The first real life example I can think of off the top of my head is about a Russian soldier who was imprisoned when returning from the Eastern Front after WWII. He was imprisoned because he surrendered to the Enemy, something that Russian soldiers were forbidden to do. Only he had both his legs blown off before capture so he didn't exactly have a say in the matter. Oh well, off to the Gulag with him. It's so insane and ridiculous it becomes funny in a really sickening kind of way.
So yeah, I think the "insertion of humor" into 40k is just something that's inevitable when you tell story in a Fascist setting.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
TheCustomLime wrote: I find it tacky when people paint their Knights in the exact same colors and livery as the Space Marine chapter they are allied with. As if they are being operated by the Chapter itself. You could make an argument for particularly devoted Freeblades but I still am not a fan of this practice. At the end of the day its their models and they can do whatever they want but.. yeah. Not a fan.
Agreed. This annoys me quite a bit too. I know anything can be handwaved when it comes to the fluff of "your dudes" but this is a particularly egregious example. It's like if you painted an Imperial Guard regiment as Blood Angels. It simply contradicts the established fluff.
Wired4War wrote: Strength and toughness should be removed and use the to wound stat from Sigmar.
So a Guardsman should find it as easy to wound a Grot as a Warlord Titan?
There may be a reason that idea is unpopular...
It's almost like a game where the variation in the toughness of models is less extreme can use a system that doesn't need to account for it, or something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/22 23:53:36
Deep down we all know that the system will never be great, or even good. Yet we can not devorce ourselves from GW. No matter what they do, we will keep coming back, whether that be a couple of weeks, or even decades.
We all come back to GW.
Because we are addicted, even to the point of secretly getting a thrill out of their bad rule writing.
For GW, they have helped to mould the perfect customer base.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
I think its because you pick up 40k, or even AOS, you spend a lot of money on the product... you want to know that there will be people to play against.
Rules don't matter. You want people to play against.
GW games pretty much guarantee that you will have people to play against for the most part, no matter how crappy the rules.
If people could just enmasse move over to a different system, then GW would be forced to make 40k a good game to try to win them back.
But that takes work, that invalidates in some peoples' case several thousands of dollars and several thousand hours worth of hobbying.
auticus wrote: I don't think its because we are addicted.
I think its because you pick up 40k, or even AOS, you spend a lot of money on the product... you want to know that there will be people to play against.
Rules don't matter. You want people to play against.
GW games pretty much guarantee that you will have people to play against for the most part, no matter how crappy the rules.
If people could just enmasse move over to a different system, then GW would be forced to make 40k a good game to try to win them back.
But that takes work, that invalidates in some peoples' case several thousands of dollars and several thousand hours worth of hobbying.
Also, the 40k universe is immersive and fun. The universe of Dropzone Commander, for example, is just kind of boringly normal. 40k is colorful and funny.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
auticus wrote: I don't think its because we are addicted.
I think its because you pick up 40k, or even AOS, you spend a lot of money on the product... you want to know that there will be people to play against.
Rules don't matter. You want people to play against.
GW games pretty much guarantee that you will have people to play against for the most part, no matter how crappy the rules.
If people could just enmasse move over to a different system, then GW would be forced to make 40k a good game to try to win them back.
But that takes work, that invalidates in some peoples' case several thousands of dollars and several thousand hours worth of hobbying.
Yeah pretty much this. If I got online tomorrow and found out that some small game exploded in popularity and now dwarfs the 40k playerbase significantly, (and simultaneously reduced the 40k playerbase,) I’d probably immediately start researching which army I’m going to play in it.
I think Knights should stay in the fluff; or in another game system or something. Having them in 40k ruins the scale of the game, which has already slowly eroded over time. I miss the days when a Land Raider was the biggest most badass looking points sink you could face. Some people had Baneblades from FW but all the forge world gak was crap people didn’t play against much.
I miss named characters being opponents permission only.
I think there are way, waaay too many factions now.
I miss the old AP system.
I don’t think 8th plays that all quickly.
I think CP and stratagems pretty much fundamentally shatter game balance.
The Empire 
1500 pts
20000+ points