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2018/12/07 22:33:32
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
Are combi-plas still only single-use? Or can you choose which profile to fire?
They've been multi-use for the edition. You can fire either weapon or both at the same time at a -1 to hit, too.
And this is also the reason GW decided to make Combi-Plasma specifically the same cost as regular Plasma, but other combi-weapons are +1ppm over their non-combi counterpart.
Because Supercharging you plasma does not like being -1 to hit, so you won't fire both at the same time (unless you're trying to die)
So basically combi-plasma is either a Plasma (11ppm) or a Bolter (0ppm) but rarely enough both to merit the +1pt.
Combi-Flamers, otoh....
Also, why are there 2 sections of Astra Militarum units. I suspect something not-quite-right is going on here.
It's not well lated out in the leaked pages but it's Codex stuff and FW stuff on different pages, with lots of overlap.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2018/12/07 22:44:03
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
dahnarius wrote: no price drop on standard tac marines makes me really sad :(
Think of it as being spread around the weapons options.
That doesn't really work out as well as you'd want it to, as that means a single squad with a Plasma Gun went down 0.4 points each.
Depends on how much you spent on your squads. It's like shopping during a sale, the more you spend the more you save!
But no matter what you do you're still in debt.
A common older squad for me was 10, Plas, Combi-Plas and Grav-Cannon. If the new points are legit and I swap to a Plasma Cannon, I get about 10% back. Across my usual four squads is 72 points for a free Rhino. Nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/07 22:50:30
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
Plasma drops by 2, Combi Plasma drops by 4, Grav-Cannon to new Plasma Cannon is a savings of 12. 18 points per squad.
With the only "special/ non-bolt related" weapons Primaris units have been released being Plasma based combined with the decrease on Plasma guns, Combi- and Cannons, I think it's save to save GW has a real hard-on for Plasma these days.
Ork codex comes out... Our points are finally on level with other armies but some of our units got points increases for no reason... but oh well! Sure other units will get points increases in CA.
CA comes out... oh.
BTW, if you notice the Knights have gone down in points with weapon options. And also weapons that have the same profile as Ork weapons have also gone down in points below the ork points... so yeah... It kinda seems like we were nerfed. XD
2018/12/07 23:01:53
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Bharring wrote: But wasn't it the best month for Ork players EVAR? It's like you were a real army - that doesn't happen every decade!
the Chimera now costs the same as an Ork Trukk. -_- I had like 2 games and I lost both. XD I never even got to test out my speed freaks list... Oh well. The battle reports on youtuber were good while they lasted.
2018/12/07 23:18:15
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Bharring wrote: I just realized: Space Marine Bike: 21ppm Storm Shield: 2ppm Plasma Gun: 13 ppm
That adds up to 36 points, although not every SM Biker can take a Storm Shield.
Shining Spears are now, what, 34ppm?
For 2ppm, you get much better shooting, +1T, a 3++ that matters *in cc*, and assorted gubbins. You lose out on weaker CC (although less than the difference in shooting) and Fly.
Yes, you lose out on:
Fly - the ability to move over terrain, and through buildings. Bikers aren't infantry so they are blocked by buildings, ruins, etc. They also cannot fight things on the second level of a ruins, or places that non-infantry and non-fly can't go.
Insane Melee - Shining spears have insane melee.
Ynnari - WTFBBQ ability to Soulburst, the most broken thing in this game.
No Overcharge - the ability to shoot without killing yourself.
Deep Strike - Webway 4 dayz
On Demand Psychic Gubbinz - Eldar have better psychic powers that are actually useful.
It's a colossal difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:18:48
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/12/07 23:18:46
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2018/12/07 23:19:41
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
dahnarius wrote: no price drop on standard tac marines makes me really sad :(
Think of it as being spread around the weapons options.
That doesn't really work out as well as you'd want it to, as that means a single squad with a Plasma Gun went down 0.4 points each.
Depends on how much you spent on your squads. It's like shopping during a sale, the more you spend the more you save!
But no matter what you do you're still in debt.
A common older squad for me was 10, Plas, Combi-Plas and Grav-Cannon. If the new points are legit and I swap to a Plasma Cannon , I get about 10% back. Across my usual four squads is 72 points for a free Rhino. Nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
I was running 10 with my Devs already, but it looks like the Tacs may get them now.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:22:22
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/12/07 23:23:26
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Please do share a list of every factions changes, would love an overall list to show us what's going on.
2018/12/07 23:25:25
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Please do share a list of every factions changes, would love an overall list to show us what's going on.
Haha sorry mate, these took some time to do and now I have to work >_>. We'll have to have someone else handle the rest for now.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2018/12/07 23:27:10
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
2018/12/07 23:29:44
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2018/12/07 23:31:01
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Well as expected some of the changes make sense and others do not.
The real kicker for me is the lack of change for basic marines and csm this was so badly needed to make these factions play as they are supposed to. The weapon drops are welcome and make them much more in line with xenos weapon costs but it is very clear at this point that gw does not want us playing with our old school space marines anymore which as i own about 300 of them is a bit of a problem for me :/
I don't agree with the cultist/infantry squad issue but can see part of their reasoning. Infantry men are supposed be the ubiquitous backbone of the IG who's hallmark is cheap troop. Cultist are supposed to be the lackeys and slaves to the mighty chaos Marines, and as they don't want to reduce their cost the only way to make them a more attractive option was to increase the cultist cost.
The other issue with the cultist/infantry squad comparison is that it is really not down to the stat line (infantry are obviously better there) it's down to cultists having a huge unit size and access to very powerful stratagem. If gw were unwilling to alter these abilities and the fact they are easy to make fearless then increasing their cost is the way to curb their relative power. Squad size of 20 and unable to use veterans of the long war would work much better...
I'm hoping for a day one faq adjusting some stuff, after all this was sent to the printers months ago and I'd be happy for them to make a f3w extra alterations.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
I just can;t believe it... I was actually getting yelled at by some people to shut up and CA would show how wrong I was... We'll guess I'm right but I don't feel good being right. I'm pissed Knights got a slight points decrease. It's only like 1 or 2 pts but just shows what GW thinks of the meta right now.
This is like one of those physics exams... if two things keep getting bigger but one is smaller than the other it doesn't mean the smaller one will eventually be the biggest. XD We're exsactly were we started but this time i have an extra trukk and you have an extra tank commander. XD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:34:20
2018/12/07 23:32:12
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
I’ve heard it for over 18 years.
You’d think I’d know better by now, but I love the fluff so damn much.
Any other company would have folded 17 years ago; if not sooner. Gameplay isn’t certainly what’s keeping GW alive, that’s for sure...
3rd edition, and every other codex was Space Marine; hell, some armies went 10-12 YEARS with no updates. The Imperial bias is beyond real.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:33:12
2018/12/07 23:34:24
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
I’ve heard it for over 18 years.
You’d think I’d know better by now, but I love the fluff so damn much.
Any other company would have folded 17 years ago; if not sooner. Gameplay isn’t certainly what’s keeping GW alive, that’s for sure...
3rd edition, and every other codex was Space Marine; hell, some armies went 10-12 YEARS with no updates. The Imperial bias is beyond real.
Now, I ain't been playing for long, only since 8th, but I can say I agree. I certainly wouldn't be playing if the Fluff was bad, the gameplay ain't keeping me around.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2018/12/07 23:37:00
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
I just can;t believe it... I was actually getting yelled at by some people to shut up and CA would show how wrong I was... We'll guess I'm right but I don't feel good being right. I'm pissed Knights got a slight points decrease. It's only like 1 or 2 pts but just shows what GW thinks of the meta right now.
Those same people will be here shortly to tell you that Orks will surely get the best formations in Vigilus and then they'll be great. If not that, then they'll have points drops in the mid-year FAQ. If not that, the 9th edition rulebook will rebalance everything properly. If not that... etc. You do gotta admire the tenacity of people who can hold on to an unshakable belief that the next release will fix everything for literal decades in the face of overwhelming evidence. It's like that joke about fusion always being just 20 years away.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:50:08
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2018/12/07 23:48:37
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
If accurate and not an elaborate trolling effort, some logical changes and some head-shakers...and sadly a few hints at what is to come.
1) Plasma is still the only special weapon worth running more or less. This is shocking to me, UNLESS they have a separate article which makes plasmas overheat on an "unmodified roll of 1" etc. If they change the rule, or indeed the stat line this might be reasonable, but as it stands the drop in other costs didn't do anything to make plasma less fantastic. Shame.
2) I was joking about the conspiracy of Primaris units and other units getting buffed while leaving basic marines in the dust...and it may have actually happened. I thought even that was a bit too bold for a company like GW. The CSM changes are more damning, with every other "type" of marine getting a decrease whilst normal marines remain the same (a veteran now costing a scant 1 point more for a better stat line and wargear options). I think CSM are unfortunately tied into the fate of normal marines which are being phased out for Primaris - but the outcry would be too severe if CSM marines were properly pointed and the normal loyalist ones werent. Again, possible there's some huge rule change which buffs normal and CSM marines, but an overpriced unit just stayed put whilst everything else around them decreased. That is a serious fething death knell for these poor guys.
3) A couple things made me laugh (Fire Dragons up by three points...their weapons down by three points...).
4) Even with point drops, I don't think Terminators are worth taking still...and that's a shame (again, UNLESS we get an actual datasheet change or something)
Overall...meh? I didn't see any serious changes to make me change units I'm using (the Avatar is still super questionable at 220(?) points...), etc.
2018/12/08 00:05:16
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
2018/12/08 00:15:06
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
4) Even with point drops, I don't think Terminators are worth taking still...and that's a shame (again, UNLESS we get an actual datasheet change or something)
Competitively, I agree. We won't see them still with how prevalent multi damage, high AP weaponry is.
That said it's still about 20% off the price of a squad, give or take depending on loadout. For casual games, I think that's enough to run a squad without feeling like I'm totally gimping myself!
I'll take it for now.
2018/12/08 00:40:49
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
lolman1c wrote: Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
And yet Primaris HQs still won't be taken because their utilities are terrible. Give me a P. Captain with a hammer, shield and jump pack and then we'll talk.
2018/12/08 00:45:22
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
lolman1c wrote: Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
And yet Primaris HQs still won't be taken because their utilities are terrible. Give me a P. Captain with a hammer, shield and jump pack and then we'll talk.
Yeah 4 attacks with a Power Fiat or Thunder Hammer is something I'd rather have than 5 attacks with a Power Sword. Plus Jump Pack or Terminator armor.
I'll make a case for the Gravis Captain, but I don't feel there's much point to the regular Primaris Captain.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Aren't Nobz S5? Seems like it would be a case that Imperial Guard players make where we can say that, since you're better with the weapon, you should pay more for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 00:48:57
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
