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I would love ten point marines with our weapon options. 13 is terrible.

100 point autocannon havocs, 120 point ten man squads with autocannons, etc. With the butcher cannon price drop we might stand a chance

Has anyone looked at the Kytan Ravager. This kind of escaped my radar. It is now just 410 points! How does it compare to a renegade knight. (By the way, now I am extra miffed that they brought down the points for Kytan Ravager but failed to do so for the Lord of skulls).

It is gonna be hard to keep alive. Like bloodthirsters, even with the reduction, are still gonna be unplayable mostly. In casual games it'll rock, tho

Any drop in normal price marines would be helpful. At 13 points its very very hard to justify taking them when chosen are flat better at 14 pts. And lets say you went with the basic 5 man, 1 plasma gun, before. That unit with before price point is 1 pt cheaper than taking 5 choosen now with 1 combi plasma.... so what does this mean now? Regular marines just have 0 legit reason to exsist. Take them as havocs or choosen, chaos marines are not worth jack.

They get mulched way too easily by 7 point models.

Azuza001 wrote:
Any drop in normal price marines would be helpful. At 13 points its very very hard to justify taking them when chosen are flat better at 14 pts. And lets say you went with the basic 5 man, 1 plasma gun, before. That unit with before price point is 1 pt cheaper than taking 5 choosen now with 1 combi plasma.... so what does this mean now? Regular marines just have 0 legit reason to exsist. Take them as havocs or choosen, chaos marines are not worth jack.

Especially when Objective Secured is mostly a non-rule. Since the beginning of 7th, I can count MAYBE on both hands where it mattered to win me a game.

Quite honestly I would prefer that Chosen be our main Troops.

I have only had it come up once in all my 8th edition games since the rule came out where objective secured made any difference. Standard marines need to be cheaper or have some sort of different weapon option that havocs cant take or choosen cant take. I mean, other than you can take 20 in one squad, and why would you, what can we do with them?

Oh well, maybe NEXT year...

Why not the following:
Drop min sizes squad sizes for marines to 3.
Drop price to 11ppm
However all armies with legion traits need to buy veterancy for 1-3 pts

Veterancy is a boost to a stat, like M, A, WS, BS, such stuff, to show that legionaires are enbittered bastards that probably know any mean trick in the book.

Renegades trait is now also usefull for cheapo marines. The others have now a legion trait aswell as a boost in stats.

That's how i would make CSM better without the whole Chaos primaris shtick.
Probably would be nice tho if we got access to stolen equipment.

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Now out of curiosity: I am going to buy a box of amirigers and a forgefiend, mostly for some nice conversions, what would be the best way to integrate them in a army detachment wise?

Just to clarify something. If I bring a Black Legion spearhead, a world eaters battalion, both detachments are battleforged, and I get the world eater traits for the WE battalion and the black legion traits for the spearhead and all strategems can be used interchangably right?

If I bring a Daemons battalion and a black legion speaheard, both daemons and black legion strategions and traits are unlocked as well right?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just to clarify something. If I bring a Black Legion spearhead, a world eaters battalion, both detachments are battleforged, and I get the world eater traits for the WE battalion and the black legion traits for the spearhead and all strategems can be used interchangably right?

If I bring a Daemons battalion and a black legion speaheard, both daemons and black legion strategions and traits are unlocked as well right?

1: Yes, all the Stratagems in Codex CSM are unlocked. Incidentally, on this note, a BL Psyker can cast buffs on World Eaters. It’d be culturally insensitive, but I’m sure the Berzerkers won’t object that much to being able to run down a jet bike

2: Yes, each detachment unlocks its Codex Stratagems. The Daemons detachment will have to be of a single deity to unlock a trait, though.

Note that (in the FAQ), Codex Chaos Daemons Stratagems cannot be used on any CSM unit - though some of them give a Daemon an aura, which can benefit nearby CSM units with the DAEMON keyword.

For instance: A Keeper of Secrets, a Black Legion Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, and some Black Legion Possessed of Slaanesh are ganging up on an enemy unit in the fight phase. Locus of Grace can be used on the KoS, but not on the DP. When used on the KoS, she enables the DP and Possessed to make additional attacks when they roll a 6 to hit.

Ok, how about this?

I use the keyword nurgle. So,

3 Nurglings for 3 troops,
2 Nurgle Daemon Princes (from chaos Daemons).
3 plague burst crawlers. (nurgle keyword)

So, I won't get any legion traits, but I still get the 5 CP for battalion? How about stategems? btw, is this considered a battleforged detachment? How about relics? no relics?

If I then take a seperate CSM legion spearhead detachment (like say an alpha legion spearhead). I get all the CSM strategems and relics anyway right? And I can then use them on this nurgle detachment? (like daemonforge on the PBC?)


BTW, I know Predator tanks are kinda fragile. But with the points drop in havoc launchers and twin las, has anyone considered three Predator tanks without sponsons, but all with havoc launchers? That's 136 points. Cheap enough you won't feel the pinch as hard if one gets taken down, but if you go first, then using kill shot sounds good.

Okay. This would indeed constitute a NURGLE Battalion, so it’s battleforged and generates 5CP.

It does not solely consist of Chaos Daemon units, or of Death Guard units, so it does not unlock Stratagems from either Codex.

When you nominate one of those DPs as your Warlord, that will grant them a Warlord Trait from their Codex, and your army can take a Relic from the same Codex.

Your take on the AL Spearhead is correct, it will unlock CSM Stratagems. An FAQ has confirmed that CSM stragatems can be used on units of Legions not in Codex CSM; for instance Daemonforge on a DG DAEMON VEHICLE or Tide of Traitors on Thousand Sons Cultists.

With regards to CSM Relics, your free Relic for turning up is determined by your Warlord. The CSM Stratagems unlocked by the AL Spearhead would include Gifts of Chaos, which would enable you to unlock one or two CSM Relics as well.

Thanks!

If someone was feeling stubborn and wanted to run a brass scorpion... is there any way at all to boost its efficiency?


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 lindsay40k wrote:

for instance Daemonforge on a DG DAEMON VEHICLE or Tide of Traitors on Thousand Sons Cultists.

.

daemonforge also requires Chaos space marine, so won't work on death guard. Tide works tho as you say.

Ah, so it does. My mistake! Huh, that makes DG Defilers a lot less inviting.

As for the Brass Scorpion, it’s all about synergy:

- take a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Warptime and Prescience, and maybe a second with Diabolic Strength and Death Hex.

- take a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment and give a winged Daemon Prince the Crimson Crown, running alongside the thing to give it rerolls to hit and charge and exploding 6’s to wound.

- take a SLAANESH DAEMONS Vanguard with Fiends and a Herald on Steed. If one of them hugs a single surviving grot that the BS has trampled up to, it can’t fall back in the enemy turn and you get to ignore all shooting and stomp it in their turn.

- consider an Exalted Champion riding in a Rhino full of Berzerkers (or, with all these Loci around, Possessed). It it can keep up, then together with the Daemon Prince you’re getting a free Daemonforge every fight phase.

Alas a FAQ made it immune to warptime. Sad face. The only durability buff I've found is iron warriors 6+ fnp.. which despite being crap might be it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daemon aura buffs seem worthwhile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would never have considered Slaaneshi support. Could catch an opponent off guard lol

Been thinking about new ways to play my CSM army post CA. My usual 2k point list got 35 points more expensive while most of my gaming buddies got an additional 100-200 points to play around with.

Has anyone thought about running Plague Marines in an Alpha Legion detachment? -1 to hit, T5 and disgustingly resilient makes for some pretty durable objective sitters, and they´re slightly cheaper now. They wouldn´t be objective secure but not sure how important that is anyway. Or are you better off just going Death Guard at that point?

Played a tournament yesterday running. Almost everything had mark of slaanesh.

Abaddon
Sorcerer
40 cultists
2 defilers
1 maulerfiend

24 bloodletters
Bloodmaster

2 heralds of slaanesh
3 x 10 demonettes


Went 2 and 3, running the demon engines up with heralds and demonettes while cultists with a 5+++ next to abandon caught a lot of people off guard on how to deal with them. The one game i did lose was vs a dark angel force on a board covered in city ruins. He put everything in the buildings covering the floors so that there was no room for my guys to get up to him and then the mission was simply kill points so it was an uphill battle...

Thankfully we are talking about switching to chapter approved missions going forward for our local tournaments. It should prevent the problem of "oh its kills points, i can just castle up and shoot you as you come because i dont have to move, you do".

Azuza001 wrote:
Played a tournament yesterday running. Almost everything had mark of slaanesh.

Abaddon
Sorcerer
40 cultists
2 defilers
1 maulerfiend

24 bloodletters
Bloodmaster

2 heralds of slaanesh
3 x 10 demonettes


Went 2 and 3, running the demon engines up with heralds and demonettes while cultists with a 5+++ next to abandon caught a lot of people off guard on how to deal with them. The one game i did lose was vs a dark angel force on a board covered in city ruins. He put everything in the buildings covering the floors so that there was no room for my guys to get up to him and then the mission was simply kill points so it was an uphill battle...

Thankfully we are talking about switching to chapter approved missions going forward for our local tournaments. It should prevent the problem of "oh its kills points, i can just castle up and shoot you as you come because i dont have to move, you do".

What equipment do you take on your defilers?
Just curious.

That game i took them as cheap as i could, reaper auto cannons and defiler scourges. My plan was to move them as fast as possible up the field to get into cc with them, the shooting was just a bonus. In my tson list my defiler always gets twin las and the scourge. This makes it a very reliable source of anti tank and a great back field defensive unit. No one wants to charge a defiler hanging out with arhiman in the back field unless they have to.

Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.

I think it was a mix of things. Largely though I think cultists have a lot to do with it.

Chaos HQs, while not particularly cheap, are usually pretty solid and units that you want around. Especially things like Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Since you would be taking those HQ choices anyway it just made sense to take 30x Cultists and go from there.

Not only that, but the Legion traits available to cultists are quite a bit better than those available to R&H. Even if you are running something like Thousand Sons or Chaos Daemons, your CP Battery could be Alpha Legion and enjoy a -1 to hit for a bit of added durability. By contrast the R&H Covenants are in general weaker than the legion traits AND require you to commit a R&H Commander as your warlord. The Cultists also benefit from stratagems like Veterans of the Long War, Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony, which gives considerable upside if you are willing to invest in a larger squad of them.

That said, now that Cultists are 5 points per model, while militia continues to be 4 points per model, R&H becomes a more interesting choice. They may be cheaper than a Guard Battalion, but they are a lot weaker. In addition to costing the same, with worse armor and worse accuracy, they also do not have regimental traits and a complete lack of stratagems and strong relics / Warlord Traits. R&H bring nothing comparable to the Khurov's Aquila or Grand Strategist.

It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.

 akaean wrote:
I think it was a mix of things. Largely though I think cultists have a lot to do with it.

Chaos HQs, while not particularly cheap, are usually pretty solid and units that you want around. Especially things like Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Since you would be taking those HQ choices anyway it just made sense to take 30x Cultists and go from there.

Not only that, but the Legion traits available to cultists are quite a bit better than those available to R&H. Even if you are running something like Thousand Sons or Chaos Daemons, your CP Battery could be Alpha Legion and enjoy a -1 to hit for a bit of added durability. By contrast the R&H Covenants are in general weaker than the legion traits AND require you to commit a R&H Commander as your warlord. The Cultists also benefit from stratagems like Veterans of the Long War, Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony, which gives considerable upside if you are willing to invest in a larger squad of them.

That said, now that Cultists are 5 points per model, while militia continues to be 4 points per model, R&H becomes a more interesting choice. They may be cheaper than a Guard Battalion, but they are a lot weaker. In addition to costing the same, with worse armor and worse accuracy, they also do not have regimental traits and a complete lack of stratagems and strong relics / Warlord Traits. R&H bring nothing comparable to the Khurov's Aquila or Grand Strategist.

It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.

That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often..

I'm tempted. My khorne daemons are very CP hungry

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.

Yes, i even use more then that.

I'd imagine now that cultists are 5ppm because feth chaos and pay your damn spike tax, milita or mutants become somewhat interesting.
R&H however, and that needs to be pointed out, have no stratagems beyond the rulebook one, field some inate disadvantages like random LD (d6+2 on most units) and unfortunately is FW, as has allready been pointed out to you, ergo some people will get angry about you obviously using broken rules. (reference to Unit1126PLL sig for further information on that mindset)

Personally, i had sucess with adding in stuff that normaly is lacking in a CSM army, indirect fire f.e. since R&H mortars are cheap and more numerous as their IG counterpart, they are a good unit, even pts wise. Militia, whilest not durable in the classical sense and having normally some problems with their random leadership can get surprisingly stubborn if you hand them a vox and play 24/7 propaganda to them via command squads.
Command Squads /Disciples (really nearly the same unit) are better IG veterans, and in a pinch can be thrown into melee.Marauders are snipers, suicide squads, everything really. (not to mention that they can have an always on -1 to hit against them on any distance, aswell as profit from +2 to their 5+ armor if sitting in cover.)

You technically also can use ogryn darts: for reference that is a valkyrie, filled with 3 ogryn berserkers and a berserker boss with energy drill charging instantly after their arrival thanks to grav insertion.

It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.

Heavy stubbers are now 5 pts per team. If you really want to generate CP take a brigade, use them instead, because for 15 pts you can fill a HS slot.

Bascially this

HQ 2 renegade commanders 50 pts

Elits 3x4 Command Squad disciples 72 pts

Standard 6x10 Milita or mutant 240 pts

Fast attack: 3x1 Spawn 75 pts

Heavy suppord 3x3 Heavy stubbers 45 pts.

total 482 pts. for 12 cp and some easily modifyable templates aswell as acess to mortars/ stubbers.

Azuza001 wrote:
That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.

Getting in the way of things that would charge and grabbing objectives is a good battlefield role. 32 wounds for less than the cost of a laspred is not exactly useless. It's not very useful, but it's not useless.

I may have missed it, but doesn't look like renegade spawn got the points cut as per the other spawn.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.

I think it’s because we chaos players are more honorable.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I may have missed it, but doesn't look like renegade spawn got the points cut as per the other spawn.

Most recent update is to be taken, they are virtually the same unit ergo you take the newest datasheet for it.
Alternativly you could take 3x1 scout sentinel with a ML for 35 pts and would pay 512 pts.
Which is still incredibly low for a brigade.

The butcher canon -2 to leadership, when it says it doesn't stack does it just mean with itself, so other butcher canons?
If a unit took casualties from a butcher canon whilst also within Haarken's aura would they be at -3? A follow up charge with a unit of raptors would put them at -4 which could be quite an effective situation?