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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:
The butcher canon -2 to leadership, when it says it doesn't stack does it just mean with itself, so other butcher canons?
If a unit took casualties from a butcher canon whilst also within Haarken's aura would they be at -3? A follow up charge with a unit of raptors would put them at -4 which could be quite an effective situation?

I would assume given the wording it doesn't stack with itself , and all other modifiers apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that thought.. this is a concept list with a Lot of leadership debuffers.
- 8 leadership possible.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Be'lakor: Death Hex, Infernal Gaze

Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Cacophonic Choir

+ Troops +

Bloodletters: 25x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Haarken Worldclaimer

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Night Lords

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Ectoplasma cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

++ Total: [132 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 22:15:39


DFTT 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 techsoldaten wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.


Getting in the way of things that would charge and grabbing objectives is a good battlefield role. 32 wounds for less than the cost of a laspred is not exactly useless. It's not very useful, but it's not useless.


I don't argue that at all. But i am looking at expanding my black legion to 2 x 40 cultists hanging with abaddon and 20 chaos marines (yes the 13 pt basic ones) with mark of slaanesh with a sorcerer with warptime and delightful agonies. In that type of force another 32 guys are just kinda there. If your playing a chaos force and not using the chaos marine troop choices then yeah, the disloyal 32 could be very useful.

Plan is abaddon hangs out with some heavy support (at the moment 3 hellbrutes with missile launcher and dual las) with 80 cultists screening out hooding objectives near my deployment zone. Then the 20 marines and the sorcerer moves towards a center or enemy objective. With black legion if i need them to move fast they can advance and still fire, with the sorcerer giving them a 5+++ fnp and warptime if they need to move even faster. 20 marines isnt the easiest thing to kill and if they do get focused dowm there are still 80 cultists that can do work.

On the marine front, i know they are not the best, but 260 pts give up 20 marines vs 200 pts for 40 cultists. Marines are much more durable 3+/5+++ vs 6+/5+++ and their guns can do more damage (str 4 is much better than str 3, especially when you multiply the force with endless canophy and vets of the long war). Finally the marines can work independently of a chaos lord or abaddon thanks to the single cp strat "let the galaxy burn". I am looking forward to trying this, especially since marine models are so easy to get ahold of thanks to their status online.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 22:20:18


 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Lots of armies can negate morale. Others bring minimum squads. And for two points you can save any squad that had taken heavy casualties.

Why would you build an army around morale modifiers
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Azuza001 wrote:
I don't argue that at all. But i am looking at expanding my black legion to 2 x 40 cultists hanging with abaddon and 20 chaos marines (yes the 13 pt basic ones) with mark of slaanesh with a sorcerer with warptime and delightful agonies. In that type of force another 32 guys are just kinda there. If your playing a chaos force and not using the chaos marine troop choices then yeah, the disloyal 32 could be very useful.


Sounds like an interesting list. I'm all for Abaddon! What's it cost, 1000 points?

Here's where most Black Legion players start off with on command points:

+3 for playing
+2 for Abaddon as Warlord
+5 for a Battalion

That's fine if all you are looking to do with Stratagems is a reroll each turn and Tide of Traitors. But Vigilus introduces the idea of detachments you can only access through CPs, which come with their own Stratagems. In that case, 10 might not be enough, especially if you're taking more than one specialist detachment.

While I liked the suggestion for going after a brigade, I think that costs about 400 points. I'd have to see what the Stratagems are before I'd be willing to eat that many points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


That's a really good detachment to compare with. Pay an additional 100+ points to get 5+ CPs and better board control.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 06:00:24


   
Made in au
Furious Raptor




Sydney, Australia

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


I'll second that - Nurglings are very often ignored. I usually just plonk them on objectives and leave them there. If someone wants to shoot them, cool, that's firepower not going into something expensive. If they charge them, unless they have a lot of weapons that do more than 1 damage, the Nurglings get their 5+ and then their Disgustingly Resilient, so they're not steamrolled like Cultists can be (hold on, let me make my 10 6+ saves... yeah they're gone)
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The only reason I use cultists is to fill out my third Thousand Sons battalion with Ahriman and DP. Otherwise I'd probably take Nurglings every time. At 5 ppm it's still worth it for me since my daemons-heavy list really needs the 18CP to auto-pass morale every turn. But in terms of board presence and durability Nurglings are just incredible. MVPs every game.

--- 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Anybody know when they'll add the lord from Blackstone fortress on to battlescribe? I thought it would be in there after the CA updates...

   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






He's there for a while now, under "servants of the abyss"
Just add them as a sub-force to your CSM detachment if you want him in a BL detachment.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Huh so he is. Thanks!
That's a bit of a pain isn't it? Why haven't they just added him to black legion like Haarken?

   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Because none of the other servants of the abyss are CSM I guess...?

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Here, what’s the current thinking on Decimators? I like the idea of having one in an Epidemius list, but the Soulburner feels really expensive now. Butcher cannon I’m not sure about, as this list aims for complete kills - every unit that has one survivor run away feels like a lost opportunity to power up Epi...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 02:41:40


   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more, and it doesn't synergize too well with your Epidemius. Unless you absolutely want it for Daemonforge, you'd prolly be better off with another daemon prince or something
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




UK

Nature's Minister wrote:
Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more


Not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Double Butcher Decimator is 140 whilst a double butcher Contemptor is 138.

Virtually none of the other Decimator weapons are worth taking from a point efficiency perspective. There may be an edge case for Soulburners vs 4+ invulns or better whilst also under the effects of re-roll all misses, but for general purpose efficiency, it's butchers all the way.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ap0k wrote:
Nature's Minister wrote:
Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more


Not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Double Butcher Decimator is 140 whilst a double butcher Contemptor is 138.

Virtually none of the other Decimator weapons are worth taking from a point efficiency perspective. There may be an edge case for Soulburners vs 4+ invulns or better whilst also under the effects of re-roll all misses, but for general purpose efficiency, it's butchers all the way.


Granted, but contemptors get the legion trait, hit on 2+ and have 2 more wounds with a better invul in melee. Aside from the higher movement range, not sure what butcher Decimator has going for it.

Well I guess they have the daemon and daemon engine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/20 06:16:45


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 lindsay40k wrote:
Here, what’s the current thinking on Decimators? I like the idea of having one in an Epidemius list, but the Soulburner feels really expensive now. Butcher cannon I’m not sure about, as this list aims for complete kills - every unit that has one survivor run away feels like a lost opportunity to power up Epi...


It got cheaper with butcher cannons,
It is a daemon engine with bs3+
It has the daemon keyword.
It has infernal regeneration, ergo it is actually not to terrible.
It has M10.

It has it's uses, daemonforge stratagem makes it surprisngly accurate, it can take some punishment, it comes with daemon synergy.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

orkswubwub wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?


Potentially drawing irate enemy forwards into charge/double-tap range?

Incidentally: what’s great about Slaanesh daemon spells? I usually end up Smiting with my mounted Herald, main thing she brings for me is an aura of +1S Advance-and-charge Fiends, Possessed, Defilers, and Maulerfiends? Hysterical Frenzy is awesome when it pays off, but requires quite a bit alignment and luck. Now I can afford my KoS, I’m not certain what else to take... the Ld attacks seem like a liability when I’m trying to make units sniff my Fiends until their own fight phase. -1 to hit debuff usually only affects a modest screening unit.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I always take the -1 hit, forcing more misses is always good. The other spells just seem too situational or flat not as good.


Cacophonic choir : a mortal wound attack based on rolling over leadership, good if your running a leadership crippling force or face an enemy with bad leadership, otherwise not as good vs smite.

Symphony of pain : -1 to hit, yes that will do nicely.

Hysterical frenzy: i can fight you in my psycic phase? Sweet! Oh, i already have to be within an inch, so i have to hope that either you charged me last turn and i wasnt killed in one bout of fighting or i charged you and for 2 cc phases we have kept in cc? Nevermind...

Delightful agonies: its easier to cast than the marine version but also worse, and honestly you would rather cast the marine version on a forgefiend or defiler than this one.

Pavane of slaanesh: this has potential since you get more rolls the bigger the squad is, but the bigger the squad is the more likely its going to be less bothered by mortal wounds. Still not a bad backup. Also targetable so there is that.

Phantasmagoria : a leadership debuff, again like the choir good if your going with a leadership bomb force like night lords but otherwise wont come up often enough to matter thanks the large number of ways most armies have to ignore the moral phase.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

orkswubwub wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?

They provide a bubble where your opponent can't deploy their own infiltrators, which could otherwise block your infiltrate move as I'm pretty sure you have to stay a certain distance from enemy models after the move. This ensures that your unit will have somewhere to move up to. It's not as important as it was before the nerf to the stratagem, but still helpful to have.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my game in 2018. Love me some traitor bois

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/20 23:30:11


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 First Among Gators wrote:
After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my gain in 2018. Love me some traitor bois



I like your list, couple of things though.

Slaanesh dp in a chaos army is stronger than khone one. The slaanssh dp gets to cast spells (5+++ is amazing, so is the option for demonic strength uf you want a bit of a boost, and the option to deny powers is useful as well) and the relic makes the slaanesh dp stronger in cc than the khorne one.

The 2 5 man teams of chaos marines also wont get you very far with that loadout. Swap that power fist out to a las cannon or missile launcher, you will want the extra long range fire support more than the cc punch that probably will never get there. As for the choosen, I wouldn't go that plasma heavy, 4 combi plasma should be more than enough. Still go with 7 guys though, lets you have a few ablative wounds in the squads.

Otherwise looks solid. Love me some 5 man rubric squads, though if you could find yourself enough for a rhino that would give them some needed mobility.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





Azuza001 wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my gain in 2018. Love me some traitor bois



I like your list, couple of things though.

Slaanesh dp in a chaos army is stronger than khone one. The slaanssh dp gets to cast spells (5+++ is amazing, so is the option for demonic strength uf you want a bit of a boost, and the option to deny powers is useful as well) and the relic makes the slaanesh dp stronger in cc than the khorne one.

The 2 5 man teams of chaos marines also wont get you very far with that loadout. Swap that power fist out to a las cannon or missile launcher, you will want the extra long range fire support more than the cc punch that probably will never get there. As for the choosen, I wouldn't go that plasma heavy, 4 combi plasma should be more than enough. Still go with 7 guys though, lets you have a few ablative wounds in the squads.

Otherwise looks solid. Love me some 5 man rubric squads, though if you could find yourself enough for a rhino that would give them some needed mobility.

Great response, thanks a lot, this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for, really significant tweaking without saying "scrap your army and buy new stuff instead"

You're probably right about the Chaos Marines, they are the armies main scorers and those power fists are not going to be making their points back every game. However for just a few points it gives them some teeth for holding backfield objectives.... and it's really cheap. After a round or 2 of combat, it's probably the difference of whether or not the squad gives up an objective to a Lictor or not for example. The point drop makes it pretty enticing to me.
I will swap to Slaanesh DP with the relic, that makes perfect sense.
Are you sure 3x4 Plasma's is enough? The only other AT I really have is Smites, and I guess the Prince. It would definitely be a lot more efficient running them with the extra wounds like that though, and maybe a Lascannon in each of the CSM squads may shore that up a little.
Rhino for the Rubrics may be a great idea, especially since they can't run and gun like the Black Legion detachment. I think the only real way I'm throwing that in is by swapping the Prince down to a Sorceror, though considering I'm planning on painting 1 of all of them, I'll probably just see if I find myself feeling like I need it once I start playing and just swap accordingly.

Thanks for the great reply, and for taking into account what I'm going for in your response.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 14:49:30


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

Chaos players tend to have a love hate relationship with Rhinos.
I personally like them. They actually have pretty decent fire power for their price point, since you can take two (2) combi bolters, and a havoc launcher which also enjoyed a substantial price drop. They clock in at 80 points with 2 combi bolters and a havoc launcher. Just slightly more expensive than a 5 man CSM squad with a heavy weapon and roughly the same firepower.

The main draw of the Rhino is that it can transport your guys, act as mobile line of sight blocking terrain while it is alive. And charge things to absorb over watch or prevent a unit from shooting. Its a really nice toolbox of abilities that it opens up. They just fold pretty quickly under anti tank firepower, and in a meta that requires players be able to evaporate a knight in a turn, there is often enough anti tank on the table to trash your Rhinos. Still. I don't leave home without at least one.


Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Agreed, rhinos are terrific units. Fast, durable for the cost, and can put out some serious fire power. The ability to transport a small troop choice up can help a lot as well, especially for poor rubrics that are otherwise just too slow

I understand the idea behind the powerfists, at 9pts they still seem too high for what they do. If they were flat 2 dmg it would be different, but thats wish listing vs reality. Still they can add that little extra punch if something big gets too close. But vs a hoard army its overkill and also worse than a power maul or power axe. So i guess your meta would determine whats best for that situation.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Azuza001 wrote:
Agreed, rhinos are terrific units. Fast, durable for the cost, and can put out some serious fire power. The ability to transport a small troop choice up can help a lot as well, especially for poor rubrics that are otherwise just too slow

I understand the idea behind the powerfists, at 9pts they still seem too high for what they do. If they were flat 2 dmg it would be different, but thats wish listing vs reality. Still they can add that little extra punch if something big gets too close. But vs a hoard army its overkill and also worse than a power maul or power axe. So i guess your meta would determine whats best for that situation.


I think power fists are a better choice for elite units. On a Berzerker captain or chaos lord it EASILY makes its points, but on a generic marine dishing out 1-2 attacks, of course it seems over costed at 9 its easily worth it.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





A fist on a berserker champ is getting you six swings from that 9pts, in a unit that's worth investing the points etc to ensure it gets into combat (warptime, rhino, icon of wrath etc)
Would I spend 9pts on a 2 swing marine champ that probably won't get into combat? No basically. Marine troops are bad, keep them at distance and in cover and they might just survive long enough to score you some points.
You're better off putting that 9pts towards an autocannon/h.bolter or even lascannon and hope they do some damage whilst camping. If they get charged, your opponent has probably committed something worthwhile charging with and they'll be wiped pretty quick before you even get to swing that fist... If you want them to have some bite give the champ a chain axe and call it a day but really the only thing marines are killing in melee is chaff where you're extra chainsword attack is probably more useful anyway.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The Autocannon would be better as it cam help with any potential W2 threats.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Autocannons are a serious consideration now at 10pts. Especially considering the amount of invulnerable save elite infantry knocking around and the fact our imperial friends are gonna be spamming the 2pt storm shields...

   
Made in au
Furious Raptor




Sydney, Australia

I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Autocannons are a serious consideration now at 10pts. Especially considering the amount of invulnerable save elite infantry knocking around and the fact our imperial friends are gonna be spamming the 2pt storm shields...

Yeah, Autogun Havocs might be really efficient takes at about 100pts for a squad of 4 now

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/12/22 01:54:51


 
   
 
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