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It's the Knight Valiant kit. It has its own box.

There's no Renegade specific version-just add skulls as NM said.

Honestly, I would just paint it regular knight colors. Hawkshroud, maybe. That way you can run a regular knights list with it if you get bored with chaos

"bored with chaos", oh no. I'll just keep going deeper into our heretical rabbit hole.

How could anyone get board with chaos? We are the number one army for kit bashing and customization! Granted we are not as beautiful as we were with codex 3.5 but still........

I miss 3.5........

Sometimes it's nice to change it up a bit. I went from pure shooting to a list with minimum, unbuffed cultists for shooting and I'm having a blast. I could see someone who plays hordes going the knight route

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).

Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).

Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.

Don’t forget each Stratagem can only be used once in the same phase. If it’s a single unit vs unit fight, then yeah, it’s going to be a problem. If there’s a massive pagga with three units a side brawling, then only one of them is going to be allowed to interrupt

 lindsay40k wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).

Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.

Don’t forget each Stratagem can only be used once in the same phase. If it’s a single unit vs unit fight, then yeah, it’s going to be a problem. If there’s a massive pagga with three units a side brawling, then only one of them is going to be allowed to interrupt

Sure but you get the most mileage out of the counter offensive strat on large units, which is precisely how ork mobs roll. On the other hand, the best way to run KB is in 5 man teams since you get a free champion every 5 guys that can carry a weapon and so you can hit as many targets as possible when they get in. I would say the best middle ground is yet again to charge in a rhino. Not only will it soak over watch, but if placed correctly (center mass) on a mob of boys, even if they counter offensive a huge portion will have to hit the rhino since you pile into the closest target. It definitely doesn't solve the issue but it's something. Alternatively you can use a termite, which I like more and more to transport KB.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

How are you getting 36 shots out of a rapier battery? I thought they were only one bolter per battery? Are you using three heavy support slots to take three groups?

I'm participating with my EC / Slaanesh Daemons 'Dino bot assault' list in a GW sponsored Tournament in January. And while i already have a 'punny' name for my list which actually fits, i've got a weird issue. I play Sonic Dreadnoughts which are - as stated in the FW Errata - just Helbrutes with 2 more Weapon options. The Tournament itself uses only Codex units (no index for some reason), all FAQ's & Erratas and no Forgeworld. And this is my problem and question i guess; Could i make the case that the Sonic Dreadnought is in fact not Forgeworld nor an Index model (the Errata states to use the Index Helbrute version even though its identical with the Codex Helbrute)?

Thats a question for your tournament organizer, but my gut reaction is no.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
The Tournament itself uses only Codex units (no index for some reason), all FAQ's & Erratas and no Forgeworld. And this is my problem and question i guess; Could i make the case that the Sonic Dreadnought is in fact not Forgeworld nor an Index model (the Errata states to use the Index Helbrute version even though its identical with the Codex Helbrute)?

Well no index units for chaos isn't really a big limitation. The main things we lose are access to Bike and Daemonic Mount Lords. That restriction is mostly in place to curb some of the Eldar cheese choices like the Autarchs with Reaper Launchers and Mark of the Incomparable Hunter. Now that the Ork Codex is out, most armies don't need the index to function (except for poor GSC for now).

Anyway, to answer your question, I think you *should* lose the argument that a Sonic Dreadnought is not Forgeworld. Remember, the Sonic Weapons are not an available choice according to the wargear on the Helbrute. In fact, the wargear choices you are looking at come from an Imperial Armor FAQ/Errata. Since the Imperial Armor Book is not allowed, I would argue that the reasonable conclusion is the imperial Armor FAQ is not in play either. Ultimately it is up to the tournament organizer though, and it never hurts to ask.

drakerocket wrote:
How are you getting 36 shots out of a rapier battery? I thought they were only one bolter per battery? Are you using three heavy support slots to take three groups?

I only noticed this the other day but the chaos ones... 1-3, imperial ones a 1 per slot!!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean that kinda logic won't stop people from taking Combi-Grav on their Tactical Sergeants. Ya know, if you're into that sorta thing.

Main point is that it's been a standard piece of equipment for Chosen and the entry got rectified, just like with Company Vets.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's the Knight Valiant kit. It has its own box.

There's no Renegade specific version-just add skulls as NM said.

Or as an alternative, consider the renegade knight with twin avenger cannons. That's 24 str 6 shots plus two heavy flamers. Its probably just as good an infantry clearer as the Valiant. Plus, you only pay 1 cp to raise ion shields for the renegade knight whiel you pay 3cp to raise ion shields for a valiant. And both are 5++ since renegade knights and dominus don't get traits or fancy relics.

Also, a twin avenger cannon renegade knight is considerably cheaper than a Valiant.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.

Darksteve wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.

So much this. Heck, this edition started off by making my Codex Legal (not FAQ legal or anything else) Chaos Space Marine squads invalid. We went from being able to have Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword to being forced to choose between Bolter OR Chainsword. So why even glue models together at all? I went through and replaced that unit with more Cultists, and have since been modelling up anyone with a Bolter armed only with the Bolter to make them compliant for this edition. For all we know, next edition might alter the Berzerkers to be armed with Chainsword OR Chainaxe but not both. Didn't stop me from ripping the Bolt Pistol arms off and replacing them with Chainsword arms because that's how I want to equip them.

Yeah, that's definitely part of the hobby. Not sure how you can kick up a big fuss and declare others to be not playing the game competitively simply because you disagree with a 9 pt upgrade on their load out, but then turn around and say that you refuse certain competitive loadouts because you're scared they might change. That's part of competitive play, the game changes every update, roll with it.

 First Among Gators wrote:
Yeah, that's definitely part of the hobby. Not sure how you can kick up a big fuss and declare others to be not playing the game competitively simply because you disagree with a 9 pt upgrade on their load out, but then turn around and say that you refuse certain competitive loadouts because you're scared they might change. That's part of competitive play, the game changes every update, roll with it.

It's fun building straw men I guess eh?

First of all your assuming I agree that combi bolter chosen are competitive. I don't. Hence my already stated preference toward quad HB rapiers.

Second of all, there are miles between a power fist being bad tactically yet available in the CSM kit and a load out on chosen that literally doesn't exist in the book proper but dangles on a FAQ. Especially when we all are aware that GW hates weapon options that don't exist in kits and that particular chosen load out is certainly not in existence anywhere in the model line.

You seem hung up on that power fist discussion mate, however I left the door open before and I will again now. Convince me using evidence and hard data on why I should run power fists on my 5 man CSM squad over before any other option. I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

Misrepresenting my positions is a weak start though.

I'm not hung up on anything mate, perhaps as you might recall, I'm the one who begged you multiple times to just stop fixatin on such a minor thing after it had been quite clearly hashed out many times over. The point of my post here is to point out the hypocrisy of those claims in light of your new position here. You have no business telling anyone they aren't a competitive player over 9 points, when you won't build any load out that you claim might be likely to change (this is what you said and what I responded to, not that you thought the load out was non competitive). The most likely stuff at any given time to be changed is the most competitive stuff. Roll with it, it's a part of competitive 40k.

>I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

I cannot be held responsible for your confoundingly poor comprehension.

Gws stance on rules for models when the models dont exsist is flakey at best. They say they dont put rules out unless there is a model for it, not a kitbash but an actual model. There are a few obvious issues with this where they contradict their own rule. Few examples i can point to off the top of my head...

1. The grand master in nemisis dreadnought armor - white dwarf had to show how to kitbash to make one after the codex came out.
2. Chaos lord on bike - gw did make a model that fits this yet its only doable as an index or as a stand in... how else am i going to use my awsome Doomrider 3rd edition model?


Having said all that i agree with red corsair on this. Combi bolter choosen are not that competitive. Thats not a bad thing per se, but again this is a tactics thread aimed at getting the most out of stuff. Weight of fire is huge this edition, and doubling your marines output of firepower looks terrific on paper but has some flaws that is hard to get around unless you go forgeworld. If you did go forgeworld there are better things to transport than choosen with storm bolters.

So the real question here is are we talking about if choosen with combi bolters are any good competitively or are we talking about how to get the most out of giving choosen combi bolters? 2 different conversations......

Darksteve wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.

Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 First Among Gators wrote:
I'm not hung up on anything mate, perhaps as you might recall, I'm the one who begged you multiple times to just stop fixatin on such a minor thing after it had been quite clearly hashed out many times over. The point of my post here is to point out the hypocrisy of those claims in light of your new position here. You have no business telling anyone they aren't a competitive player over 9 points, when you won't build any load out that you claim might be likely to change (this is what you said and what I responded to, not that you thought the load out was non competitive). The most likely stuff at any given time to be changed is the most competitive stuff. Roll with it, it's a part of competitive 40k.

>I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

I cannot be held responsible for your confoundingly poor comprehension.

You failed again then. That's not hypocrisy at all. How is me thinking combi bolter chosen are not efficient VS ork boys AND my weariness about the conversion at all similar to my earlier point to you that a power fist is not tactically sound on a min CSM unit meant to sit on back field objectives. BTW it's disingenuous of you to act as though I was the one unwilling to change my position or move on when I recall you were pushing back against most of the people in this thread. Which is fine by me BTW, just don't act as though your a victim.

The fact that you remark and critique my comprehension when you continually misrepresent other posters comments is what I actually find concerning. Stop that.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Darksteve wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).

I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.

Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.

Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.

I definitely haven't played as long as you and if you had said something to the above effect initially I wouldn't have bothered replying. I just dont like the rational "GW created it so its not long for this world" for the reasons above. Personally I also like noise marines better for that role in most cases.

Darksteve wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.

I definitely haven't played as long as you and if you had said something to the above effect initially I wouldn't have bothered replying. I just dont like the rational "GW created it so its not long for this world" for the reasons above. Personally I also like noise marines better for that role in most cases.

eh. Lets all just calm down and have a nice fun little discussion. I think as others have said in a tactics board, modeling preference actually doesn't really have a place. I understand that from a personal standpoint personal predictions about the shelf life of a particular model are very important, but in this thread we should be judging combi bolter chosen on their own merits as they compare to anything else in a CSM army. So this whole discussion about combi bolter chain sword chosen vanishing at some point is an interesting question but one that isn't particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.

I think towards the end there was some discussion about the relative merits or lack thereof with respect to combi bolter chosen's actual field performance. Which is useful, but the rest of it would be better placed in a general discussion thread talking about the longevity of errata rulings. Or in a painting and modeling forum discussing whether a particular conversion is ultimately worth it in the long run. Before I get back on topic though, one thing to consider is that there are many events where a rapier may be banned. Whether you agree with it or not, there is a *stigma* attached to forgeworld, and I've been seeing an increasing number of tournaments and events with a 'no index' 'no forgeworld' rules set. In this situation, investing heavily into forgeworld as opposed to codex choices could leave you short handed and require you to look other places for tactics. This has no bearing on casual games or events with standard rules not banning forgeworld units. But in my opinion forgeworld is potentially just as risky to invest in, since many events ban them for better or for worse. Foregeworld also isn't great about respecting players. Remember Greater Knarlocs? Hell Sonic Dreads almost didn't even get into the IA index and just skated in through an FAQ. Those were a model FW had sold for years... However you will notice that generally people speak in terms of the merits of Sonic Dreads and not the fact that they are one edit away from not existing anymore. Love me some sonic dreads.

So uh. Combi Bolter Chosen I don't think are great. Especially since they cannot even take a full squad of combi bolters, and they still only have 1 wound. They take an elites slot as opposed to a troops choice... overall I agree that they aren't quite worth what you pay for them. Even now. I would almost rather have generic CSM as they maintain objective secured. If I was going to spend those points on MEQ and didn't play EC... I would rather have 5 regular CSM with a Heavy Bolter and a Combi Bolter Champ. Park them on an objective and take pot shots. Objective secured is a thing afterall.

Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.

Yeah, Forgeworld models are basically as risky as you can buy. Completely random with rules, releases and balance.

Just worth pointing out, the Champion can take a combi bolter so you can have 5/5

The main real advantage I think Bolter Chosen have over Noise Marines is the ability to take multiple CC weapons like Chainaxes standard or multiple power fists. If you aren't doing that then just take Noise Marines, I think Noise Marines are very good

In the world of combi-bolters I've been looking to try out double fisted helbrutes again with a combi-bolter on each fist. If you make them alpha legion and either slannash for fnp or nurgle for another -1 to hit they seem pretty nifty threats to throw upfield