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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Incidentally, now that the goalposts have taken off running so far that we're talking about vehicles now, the Adepta Sororitas vehicles are a teeny bit more expensive than their Space Marine equivalents for precisely this reason, actually.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

Overcharged plasma is AP-3. This is objectively wrong.

You might be correct. I'll have to check when I fly back home but I vaguely remember S7 AP-3 D1 to S8 AP-4 D2.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Incidentally, now that the goalposts have taken off running so far that we're talking about vehicles now, the Adepta Sororitas vehicles are a teeny bit more expensive than their Space Marine equivalents for precisely this reason, actually.

I am just saying they are more durable.... having an invulernable save on vehicles and troops is great. I am saying they aren't really paying as much as a grey knight squad would. They only differences are they don't do as well in close combat (okay whatever), -1 toughness (kinda sucks), -1 strength (again useless no one fights in close combat) and thats about it otherwise, 9pts per a +3 armor save and +6 invulnerable save is pretty decent. They aren't the worst codex, but they aren't as horrible as people say they are. They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.

Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

The only big thing they are missing is anti-tank. But no one plays mono armies sooo you just get a knight titan.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

Overcharged plasma is AP-3. This is objectively wrong.

Thats wrong helllblasters do indeed have ap-4

A lot of new space marine plasma is ap-4.

Plasma Incinerator, Heavy Plasma Incinerator, Macro Plasma Incinerator, and Assault Plasma.

People do use hellblasters but they are 165 pts. For 5 of them.

1. No, knights was just the first thing I could think of that get's splashed in every Imperial army. I could also have said Imperial guard, or smash captains.

2. Nearly as tough is not the same as "as tough" but it's also close enough that it statistically doesn't matter.

3. But you already know, so you don't need me to tell you. I'd try reading more GW materials before posting again. You don't even know common basic weapon stats or math.


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 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Incidentally, now that the goalposts have taken off running so far that we're talking about vehicles now, the Adepta Sororitas vehicles are a teeny bit more expensive than their Space Marine equivalents for precisely this reason, actually.

I am just saying they are more durable.... having an invulernable save on vehicles and troops is great. I am saying they aren't really paying as much as a grey knight squad would. They only differences are they don't do as well in close combat (okay whatever), -1 toughness (kinda sucks), -1 strength (again useless no one fights in close combat) and thats about it otherwise, 9pts per a +3 armor save and +6 invulnerable save is pretty decent. They aren't the worst codex, but they aren't as horrible as people say they are. They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.

Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

The only big thing they are missing is anti-tank. But no one plays mono armies sooo you just get a knight titan.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

Overcharged plasma is AP-3. This is objectively wrong.

Thats wrong helllblasters do indeed have ap-4

A lot of new space marine plasma is ap-4.

Hellblasters are AP-4. Literally every other plasma weapon in the game is ap-3. Hellblasters are their own catagory of weapon that can be taken by one unit, while every imperial unit in the game, and most of chaos can take plasma.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

How many points do you think a 6++ is worth on a Rhino? Given 2 entries in your Grey Knights Codex, a Rhino and a "shielded" rhino, but the latter had a 6++ for 3 pts, which would you take?

If the answer is anything other than "the shielded rhino" then I'd argue they get what they pay for, or even worse.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

How many points do you think a 6++ is worth on a Rhino? Given 2 entries in your Grey Knights Codex, a Rhino and a "shielded" rhino, but the latter had a 6++ for 3 pts, which would you take?

If the answer is anything other than "the shielded rhino" then I'd argue they get what they pay for, or even worse.

Well the shield of faith increases in power though.

Plus you get really cheap units. 90pts for a squad of 10 sisters, similar to guardsmen, the only problem is "what else do they get?".

I am not arguing sisters are better than marines, but they do seem a hell of a lot more durable with their +6 invulnerable compared to grey knights who die in spades. (of course thats not the primary issue with grey knights)

Which is not really 'worse' its a vehicle that can save itself from a melta weapon which is not 'worse' meltas have always been the bane of most vehicles. Having protection against that is quite valuable. ignoring it completely is a terrible idea, its why Levi dreads are so valuable they have a ++4 invulnerable save. (Which you know is quite valuable for a model that takes 310 pts investment.

It's useful when it comes up, but the most commonly used AT weapons are Krak missiles (AP 2) plasma (ap 3) and Las cannons (ap3).

Most people don't even look at melta currently.

As for saves, a 4++ is far more powerful than a 6++. That should have gone without saying.

You edited your post while I was typing.

Grey knights are T4, which helps against far more than a 6++ on a 3+ save model. They also hit harder in melee, due to S4 and D 1d3.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

How many points do you think a 6++ is worth on a Rhino? Given 2 entries in your Grey Knights Codex, a Rhino and a "shielded" rhino, but the latter had a 6++ for 3 pts, which would you take?

If the answer is anything other than "the shielded rhino" then I'd argue they get what they pay for, or even worse.

Well the shield of faith increases in power though. .

By buying things that you have to pay points for...? What's your point? Is the problem that the Rhino has a 6++? Or that the Rhino near Azrael Celestine and Canoness + Warlord Trait (something like 300 points) has a 4++ if it only moves 6" per turn?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which is not really 'worse' its a vehicle that can save itself from a melta weapon which is not 'worse' meltas have always been the bane of most vehicles. Having protection against that is quite valuable. ignoring it completely is a terrible idea, its why Levi dreads are so valuable they have a ++4 invulnerable save. (Which you know is quite valuable for a model that takes 310 pts investment.

So... you would take a Sororitas Rhino to drive your GK around in? I don't see where you answered my question.

EDIT:
A 6++ invulnerable means nothing to Power Armour. Literally nothing. If, tomorrow, you were in my Meta and said "Let's play a game with my entire Grey Knight army having a 6++" I'd absolutely consent, because the highest AP in my entire army of fething Baneblade tanks is AP -3.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

How many points do you think a 6++ is worth on a Rhino? Given 2 entries in your Grey Knights Codex, a Rhino and a "shielded" rhino, but the latter had a 6++ for 3 pts, which would you take?

If the answer is anything other than "the shielded rhino" then I'd argue they get what they pay for, or even worse.

You also need to look at how many armies get access to a Rhino in the first place. Let's pretend for whatever reason their Rhino is 95 points. Sounds insane, right?
Now pretend all Sisters got cut by like 5 points. Obviously this is hyperbole, but the objectively worse Rhino has a cheaper buy-in. The 4 points you save on Sisters goes a long way that an extra 3 points for a 6++ is worth it.

 Mmmpi wrote:
It's useful when it comes up, but the most commonly used AT weapons are Krak missiles (AP 2) plasma (ap 3) and Las cannons (ap3).

Most people don't even look at melta currently.

As for saves, a 4++ is far more powerful than a 6++. That should have gone without saying.

Except for like fire dragons but even then, not many people do indeed take melta cause its too expensive and its range is way too short.

So... you would take a Sororitas Rhino to drive your GK around in? I don't see where you answered my question.

Yes I would. Rhinos are oddly positioned at 72 points. But why would I take grey knights in rhinos that can be exploded by anything? It is a vehicle that has protection against high-end weaponry. If a land raider or a predator tank had access to an invulnerable save they would be a bit more valuable.

By buying things that you have to pay points for...? What's your point? Is the problem that the Rhino has a 6++? Or that the Rhino near Azrael Celestine and Canoness + Warlord Trait (something like 300 points) has a 4++ if it only moves 6" per turn?

Azrael is an interesting bit though now that you bring him up. I have no idea why those lists aren't used more often...

I would think so, but not many people play space marines anymore, hell I stopped playing them. Most people seem to use in tournaments guardsmen and not marines. Maybe its the prevalence of knights? (Which should be at this point only allowed in Apocalypse games)

Blood angels, dark angels, core Chaos marines, sisters, sisters in gold, space marines, inquisition, space wolves.

And sisters pay more, not less for a rhino.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

How many points do you think a 6++ is worth on a Rhino? Given 2 entries in your Grey Knights Codex, a Rhino and a "shielded" rhino, but the latter had a 6++ for 3 pts, which would you take?

If the answer is anything other than "the shielded rhino" then I'd argue they get what they pay for, or even worse.

You also need to look at how many armies get access to a Rhino in the first place. Let's pretend for whatever reason their Rhino is 95 points. Sounds insane, right?
Now pretend all Sisters got cut by like 5 points. Obviously this is hyperbole, but the objectively worse Rhino has a cheaper buy-in. The 4 points you save on Sisters goes a long way that an extra 3 points for a 6++ is worth it.

So... what exactly? Are 6++ Rhinos good now? You can have a 6++ on your Rhino for free in our next game if I ever play you; I don't have any AP in my usual army better than lascannons anyways. 6++ for everyone! I'm sure that will solve all of the durability problems of Space Marines in one fell swoop.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
It's useful when it comes up, but the most commonly used AT weapons are Krak missiles (AP 2) plasma (ap 3) and Las cannons (ap3).

Most people don't even look at melta currently.

As for saves, a 4++ is far more powerful than a 6++. That should have gone without saying.

Except for like fire dragons but even then, not many people do indeed take melta cause its too expensive and its range is way too short.

So you already see what I'm talking about.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes I would. Rhinos are oddly positioned at 72 points. But why would I take grey knights in rhinos that can be exploded by anything? It is a vehicle that has protection against high-end weaponry. If a land raider or a predator tank had access to an invulnerable save they would be a bit more valuable.

If you think your Rhinos are more valuable against my Baneblade company with a 6++ than they otherwise wood be, then let me blow your mind:
What if I told you that my Baneblades let you have a 6+ anyways while they completely annihilated 3-4 Rhinos a turn?

I've seen it happen. Done it too.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
It's useful when it comes up, but the most commonly used AT weapons are Krak missiles (AP 2) plasma (ap 3) and Las cannons (ap3).

Most people don't even look at melta currently.

As for saves, a 4++ is far more powerful than a 6++. That should have gone without saying.

Except for like fire dragons but even then, not many people do indeed take melta cause its too expensive and its range is way too short.

So you already see what I'm talking about.

No i'm agreeing with you. I'm saying a ++6 invulernable is a bit more valuable not ignorable. Its not great, but it makes them a bit more valuable compared to grey knights. (Which isn't that hard)


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 Mmmpi wrote:
I've seen it happen. Done it too.

Well Vehicles this edition are really squishy. I wouldn't doubt it hell my wave serpent army slaughters vehicles. (Serpent Shield is a bit too powerful)

So we're all in agreement then: A 6++ barely means anything, Deny the Witch on a single d6 barely means anything, and... yes?

 Mmmpi wrote:
1. No, knights was just the first thing I could think of that get's splashed in every Imperial army. I could also have said Imperial guard, or smash captains.

2. Nearly as tough is not the same as "as tough" but it's also close enough that it statistically doesn't matter.

3. But you already know, so you don't need me to tell you. I'd try reading more GW materials before posting again. You don't even know common basic weapon stats or math.


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 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Incidentally, now that the goalposts have taken off running so far that we're talking about vehicles now, the Adepta Sororitas vehicles are a teeny bit more expensive than their Space Marine equivalents for precisely this reason, actually.

I am just saying they are more durable.... having an invulernable save on vehicles and troops is great. I am saying they aren't really paying as much as a grey knight squad would. They only differences are they don't do as well in close combat (okay whatever), -1 toughness (kinda sucks), -1 strength (again useless no one fights in close combat) and thats about it otherwise, 9pts per a +3 armor save and +6 invulnerable save is pretty decent. They aren't the worst codex, but they aren't as horrible as people say they are. They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.

Well their rhinos are only more expensive by 3pts. Not that expensive and completely negligible. Especially if you can take more sisters and rhinos that have invulnerable saves.

The only big thing they are missing is anti-tank. But no one plays mono armies sooo you just get a knight titan.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

Overcharged plasma is AP-3. This is objectively wrong.

Thats wrong helllblasters do indeed have ap-4

A lot of new space marine plasma is ap-4.

Hellblasters are AP-4. Literally every other plasma weapon in the game is ap-3. Hellblasters are their own catagory of weapon that can be taken by one unit, while every imperial unit in the game, and most of chaos can take plasma.

1. Well Slamguinus was hit with the nerf to CP farming, so I don't foresee him being an issue anymore. It also isn't Imperial Guard being an issue, merely a few of their units.
2. So if they're equal in durability, one unit gets more shots and therefore is objectively better.
3. Oh I can name almost all the Sniper units. Scout Snipers, Deathmarks and the Mephrit Warlord Trait, Intercessors with Stalkers and a Strategem, Eldar Rangers and that HQ dude as well as there being a Warlord trait, Skitarii with TranArqs, Dark Angels with a particular Warlord trait, Tau Sniper Drones, Vindicare Assassins, Ratlings, Knights using the Missile Straegem, I could've missed a few.
So tell me which is really a threat.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So we're all in agreement then: A 6++ barely means anything, Deny the Witch on a single d6 barely means anything, and... yes?

Well I mean thats the crux of this argument is that "Knights are too powerful lets base everything around knights." Which is a proble

Sisters are cheaper because they have less toughness and strength and a worse weapon skill than a baseline marine. But they have a 6+ Invulnerable with deny the witch on base as well all below a +9pts per a model (if they were in a marine army I'd probably take sisters over tacticals, actually i would take anything over a tactical squad not really a preference more of an efficiency and as I need more CP to stay competitive). Which for some reason doesn't inflate their costs? I am trying to understand how the points work out for them cause hell if I know GW's internal pointing system seems random at this point considering a bolter is the same cost as a hotshot lasgun and a lasgun. (for some reason?)

1. Doesn't change the fact that they get included in practically every list.
2. And one gets better options at the squad and army level. Once you stop microing everything the picture changes again.
3. There, I knew you could do it. The one you build around to take advantage of that rule.

For all those saying that Sisters are more powerful and a better buy than Marines, why is it that in competitive matched play (which has become very popular and quadrupled in size) Space Marines consistently out rank Sisters in tournament play.

1. Yes Sisters Infantry May be cheaper and MAYBE more effective point for point, but when you only have a few options in your tool kit and Marines have options coming out their @ss, after the first 1000 points and Rule of 3, Sisters are pretty much stuck with replicating the same stale mono build over again.
2. Marines also have automatic buffs - what do Sisters have? A 6++ that in 6 editions I’ve rarely had to use / and a deny the witch that I cast on ONE DIE, so it only works less than 1 time in 50 ??
3. Our Guilliman in Celestine is now less powerful than a Smash Captain and costs the Same as a Custodes Shield Captain on a Jetbike with Hurricane Bolters- it’s not even close.
4. For those saying our REPRESSORS should be carrying Sisters to victory... I could buy an army full of Repressors at 109 points apiece and their offensive power is ONE heavy flamer and 2 Stormbolters. How does that win games?

A 6++ is actually a nice tool to have...

1. If your squad is surrounded you can elect to take saves on the 6+++, killing your own models, so you can shoot the target. This is a big deal with Orks, GSC, and other stuff that wants to stay locked in.

2. A save is a save. Hemlock Wraithfighters exist, and until they don't, it's safe to assume you'll be taking a significant number of saves. In fact the sheer volume of -4 weaponry in this game is kind of out of hand. A Castellan can shoot into a squad of sisters and they can survive. That is weirdly valuable.

3. There are ways to buff that save. It's a 6++ until it's a 5++ or better. 8th edition has proven that an invulnerable save adds a layer of durability that is very valuable. A 5++ is not at all bad when the models are cheap enough.

Let's stop trying to downplay stuff.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So we're all in agreement then: A 6++ barely means anything, Deny the Witch on a single d6 barely means anything, and... yes?

Well I mean thats the crux of this argument is that "Knights are too powerful lets base everything around knights."

Sisters are cheaper because they have less toughness and strength and a worse weapon skill than a baseline mrine. But they have a 6+ Invulnerable with deny the witch on base. Which for some reason doesn't inflate their costs? I am trying to understand how the points work out for them cause hell if I know GW's internal pointing system seems random at this point considering a bolter is the same cost as a hotshot lasgun and a lasgun. (for some reason?)

No, that's not what anyone is saying.

SoF does inflate their cost. T4 is significantly more durable compared to T3, and S4, when it gets used is also better.

As for guns, a bolter's S4 is better than a Hotshot's S3. But the cost for 0 point weapons is already built into the models.

 Asherian Command wrote:
[Sisters are cheaper because they have less toughness and strength and a worse weapon skill than a baseline marine. But they have a 6+ Invulnerable with deny the witch on base as well all below a +9pts per a model (if they were in a marine army I'd probably take sisters over tacticals, actually i would take anything over a tactical squad not really a preference more of an efficiency and as I need more CP to stay competitive). Which for some reason doesn't inflate their costs? I am trying to understand how the points work out for them cause hell if I know GW's internal pointing system seems random at this point considering a bolter is the same cost as a hotshot lasgun and a lasgun. (for some reason?)

I have long since given up trying to understand GW's point system.

I'd take a Sororitas over a Marine. I'd take a Kabalite over a Sororitas. I'd take a Guardsman over a Kabalite. Sororitas might be better than Marines, but they are not actually very good. They're okay, and Marines need a buff to be equally okay. But the Sororitas beta codex doesn't actually do anything fun or engaging, and that's primarily my problem with it.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 6++ is actually a nice tool to have...

1. If your squad is surrounded you can elect to take saves on the 6+++, killing your own models, so you can shoot the target. This is a big deal with Orks, GSC, and other stuff that wants to stay locked in.

2. A save is a save. Hemlock Wraithfighters exist, and until they don't, it's safe to assume you'll be taking a significant number of saves. In fact the sheer volume of -4 weaponry in this game is kind of out of hand. A Castellan can shoot into a squad of sisters and they can survive. That is weirdly valuable.

3. There are ways to buff that save. It's a 6++ until it's a 5++ or better. 8th edition has proven that an invulnerable save adds a layer of durability that is very valuable. A 5++ is not at all bad when the models are cheap enough.

Let's stop trying to downplay stuff.

A 6++ is passingly useful.

Sister units don't last long enough to use your 1st point. They get charged, they die.
2. A save is a save, and it is useful, but not as common as you're saying.

3. There are, but there are downsides to buffing it. Such as having to bunch up together, where the whole army can get locked up by just a few units.

So, yeah. How about we actually look at how useful it is, rather than with rose colored glasses.

 davidgr33n wrote:
For all those saying that Sisters are more powerful and a better buy than Marines, why is it that in competitive matched play (which has become very popular and quadrupled in size) Space Marines consistently out rank Sisters in tournament play.

1. Yes Sisters Infantry May be cheaper and MAYBE more effective point for point, but when you only have a few options in your tool kit and Marines have options coming out their @ss, after the first 1000 points and Rule of 3, Sisters are pretty much stuck with replicating the same stale mono build over again.
2. Marines also have automatic buffs - what do Sisters have? A 6++ that in 6 editions I’ve rarely had to use / and a deny the witch that I cast on ONE DIE, so it only works less than 1 time in 50 ??
3. Our Guilliman in Celestine is now less powerful than a Smash Captain and costs the Same as a Custodes Shield Captain on a Jetbike with Hurricane Bolters- it’s not even close.
4. For those saying our REPRESSORS should be carrying Sisters to victory... I could buy an army full of Repressors at 109 points apiece and their offensive power is ONE heavy flamer and 2 Stormbolters. How does that win games?

1. Agreed.

2. Agreed, but what buffs for marines? Explain?

3. Guilliman and Smash Captain are too powerful we both agree. And Shield Captains need a nerf mallet. (Even though I do run three of them they are far too effective for their PTS)

4. Not saying that but merely saying an invulnerable save is an invulnerable save. Its better than nothing. And that sisters aren't 'horrible' Grey knights are still objectively worse in every regard other than DreadKnights.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
[Sisters are cheaper because they have less toughness and strength and a worse weapon skill than a baseline marine. But they have a 6+ Invulnerable with deny the witch on base as well all below a +9pts per a model (if they were in a marine army I'd probably take sisters over tacticals, actually i would take anything over a tactical squad not really a preference more of an efficiency and as I need more CP to stay competitive). Which for some reason doesn't inflate their costs? I am trying to understand how the points work out for them cause hell if I know GW's internal pointing system seems random at this point considering a bolter is the same cost as a hotshot lasgun and a lasgun. (for some reason?)

I have long since given up trying to understand GW's point system.

I'd take a Sororitas over a Marine. I'd take a Kabalite over a Sororitas. I'd take a Guardsman over a Kabalite. Sororitas might be better than Marines, but they are not actually very good. They're okay, and Marines need a buff to be equally okay. But the Sororitas beta codex doesn't actually do anything fun or engaging, and that's primarily my problem with it.

At this point I am surprised Soroitas don't have a new troop choice of roided up Sisters. But I agree it was a very boring edition of sisters. I think we need to see some groups being given more powerful units.... like maybe sisters of silence for Sororitas? (Give them a +2 save +4 invulnerable +1 toughness and +1 strength, 14pts per a model and equipment costs differently and bam solid sister unit)


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 Mmmpi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A 6++ is actually a nice tool to have...

1. If your squad is surrounded you can elect to take saves on the 6+++, killing your own models, so you can shoot the target. This is a big deal with Orks, GSC, and other stuff that wants to stay locked in.

2. A save is a save. Hemlock Wraithfighters exist, and until they don't, it's safe to assume you'll be taking a significant number of saves. In fact the sheer volume of -4 weaponry in this game is kind of out of hand. A Castellan can shoot into a squad of sisters and they can survive. That is weirdly valuable.

3. There are ways to buff that save. It's a 6++ until it's a 5++ or better. 8th edition has proven that an invulnerable save adds a layer of durability that is very valuable. A 5++ is not at all bad when the models are cheap enough.

Let's stop trying to downplay stuff.

A 6++ is passingly useful.

Sister units don't last long enough to use your 1st point. They get charged, they die.
2. A save is a save, and it is useful, but not as common as you're saying.

3. There are, but there are downsides to buffing it. Such as having to bunch up together, where the whole army can get locked up by just a few units.

So, yeah. How about we actually look at how useful it is, rather than with rose colored glasses.

People actually use close combat in this game

The only ones i know of that do are knights. Close combat is extremely underpowered this edition its why i said the strength stat is kind of useless, i've rarely been in games where close combat has at all been as useful as a gunline army.

1. Agreed

2. There are but you still can buff, which should be a mechanic that grey knights should also have. As they are literally useless currently.

Hemlock Wraith Fighters though and all these big units kind of ruin 40k in general, I would put a beta rule in that would prevent people from using any big models like Bobby G, the primarchs, titans, baneblades etc from being played in normal matched play. That would probably balance out most of this edition pretty well.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A 6++ is actually a nice tool to have...

1. If your squad is surrounded you can elect to take saves on the 6+++, killing your own models, so you can shoot the target. This is a big deal with Orks, GSC, and other stuff that wants to stay locked in.

2. A save is a save. Hemlock Wraithfighters exist, and until they don't, it's safe to assume you'll be taking a significant number of saves. In fact the sheer volume of -4 weaponry in this game is kind of out of hand. A Castellan can shoot into a squad of sisters and they can survive. That is weirdly valuable.

3. There are ways to buff that save. It's a 6++ until it's a 5++ or better. 8th edition has proven that an invulnerable save adds a layer of durability that is very valuable. A 5++ is not at all bad when the models are cheap enough.

Let's stop trying to downplay stuff.

A 6++ is passingly useful.

Sister units don't last long enough to use your 1st point. They get charged, they die.
2. A save is a save, and it is useful, but not as common as you're saying.

3. There are, but there are downsides to buffing it. Such as having to bunch up together, where the whole army can get locked up by just a few units.

So, yeah. How about we actually look at how useful it is, rather than with rose colored glasses.

1. It does happen, it's not my fault you don't play good opponents that know how to minimize attacks to stay locked in combat. For example, Tyranid Genstealers desperately want to kill your squads on *your* turn. I play this army. If i can finagle it so a squad stays locked in, rather than killing a unit after i charge, especially against a gunline army like sisters, that's a huge win for me. But, I have to commit some attacks. I have no choice. You must attack if you're in range to do so. That means you can pull the squad on my turn as opposed to your turn, stopping me from overruning into your back line before I get my move, shoot, charge. Orks do this great as well, they want to stay locked in so they can pile in and lock everything up with gigantic blobs. And it all starts by charging your screening units or basic infantry. Stop being obtuse man.

2. A save is a save. Just remember next time you see a marine player pulling his 13 point guys off of the table saying "i don't get a save," remember that you will, and that's a big deal. You'll be rolling your 6++ as though you had a feel no pain that negates multiple damage against those -4 weapons that are actually pretty damn common - Rending Claws, Hemlocks, Wraithguards, Blasters, etc.

3. Absolutely clownish reply. There are downsides to buffing it? There are downsides potentially to EVERY choice you make in the game, except to bring the Loyal32 + possibly more if you can. I can't even with this nonsense. There are potential downsides to getting out of bed in the morning. The possibility of a downside doesn't mean having a choice to buff your units is bad, holy insert here, batman.

@Asherian Command-


2. Agreed, but what buffs for marines? Explain?

ATSKNF for all Marines, in addition to each Chapters’ Chapter Tactics buffs. Those are all automatic. Sisters get a very situational 6++ (I’d rather have ATSKNF) and Deny the Witch one 1 die. Our chapter Tactics are weak - maybe the +1attack / +1 strength that none of our units would be effective using (a 4 point ork boy would kill 3 9-point Sisters even with that Buff).

@Marmatag:

2. A save is a save. Just remember next time you see a marine player pulling his 13 point guys off of the table saying "i don't get a save," remember that you will, and that's a big deal. You'll be rolling your 6++ as though you had a feel no pain that negates multiple damage against those -4 weapons that are actually pretty damn common - Rending Claws, Hemlocks, Wraithguards, Blasters, etc.

In 6 editions with the same 6++ save and several hundred games I’ve maybe used that save on my Infantry models 10 times. Why? Because who is shooting at my sisters with meltaguns or railguns? And usually If I get into close combat my units have to make so many saves that even at 3+ my Sisters don’t stand a chance.
For that 6++ save give me something I can actually use, like ATSKNF or an option for a power fist on my Sisters.

Well, Shining Spears use CC, and wound SoB on a 2+ or 4+, and Marines on a 3+ or 5+. Not a huge difference, but it is a difference. Although SoB get a 6++, Marines get nothing (because it's AP-4).

I'm still confused as how this argument is still framed as defense being inadequate rather than offense being under costed.

No amount of cheaper armor is going to answer the fact you can spam special weapons that just so happen to kill things on a 3+ and ignore their armor for cheaper than the other guy can stock more bodies.

Well if SoB were 6-7pts, then the amount of armor would be enough for a 6++ to be a more deciding factor. If your saving one in six dudes when you have 60 dudes and the opposing army can kill 30 of them per turn, it ain't that good. But if have 200 people and rate of fire still only kills 40-50 dudes you still have 3/4 of your army to wreck stuff up.

Now if sisters really were 7pts, IG people would probably go insane.