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The only reason I can think of that the Nids bother with consuming planetary ecologies is for unique DNA patterns they can use to improve themselves. They could easily build thousands of time the biomass from harvesting comets and small moons without pesky gravity wells. It makes me wonder if Rippers don't have built-in DNA analyzing glands so that everything can be sorted and uploaded to the hive mind prior to proper digestion.
The tyranids did actually use to strip the planets of minerals (those usefull to them) all the way down to the bedrock. But with so much prey around, they simply dont bother anymore.
And you have to remember, that the earths crust contains vast amounts of elements that might not be very interesting to them. Like silicon.
Delays and other problems in warp communication would basically necessitate the splintering of the hive mind anyways, and they may well not sync up again as the hive mind fragments 'diverge' Even if the Tyranids started as a monolithic hive fleet, they aren't one anymore.
It is clearly stated in "The devestation of baal", that the hive mind is one.
Example:
"the lictor looked like a creature unto itself. It moved as a solitary organism. It had operated on its own for years, far away from the hive fleet. But it was not apart from the hive mind. That was the mistake the prey always made. Even at this corpuscular level, it was a mistake to see the lictor as a lictor, one of millions; there were not many, there was one. The lictor was the lictor. Every iteration was a copy, better than perfect for aeons of improvement, party to the actions, mistakes and successes of every other lictor that had come before. Welded to the very genes of its being were untold millions of years of experience. And it was on Baal just as it was simultaneously on a thousand other worlds throughout the galaxy"
Also:
Spoiler:
Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be. It recovered quickly, diminished but alive, but that moment seemed to the hive mind an eternity of darkness. Trillions of its creatures permanently lost touch with the hive mind, and were reduced to unthinking animals.
For the first time in its existence, the hive mind tasted death.
[spoiler]
nou wrote: The Great Devourer is not a synonym for some singular Hive Mind organism or Tyranid equivalent of Warp based god
That's exactly what it is. A feeling and thinking entity. This was made VERY clear in "the devastation of baal". I can find the quote if you wish.
Its has always been a thinking entity. Only the "feeling" part is new.
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 19:27:52
Neither the old ones, nor the necrons have ever been stated to stem from outside the 40k galaxy (and we KNOW that the necron homeworld is in the milkey way). Deamons have been stated to exist in other realities (like age of sigmar) but never outside the 40K galaxy.
Sorry but you are very very wrong, it was in a recent book but the old ones and necrons fought over galaxies, just because the homeworld is in the milky way, does not mean they did not fight in other galaxies, also its directly stated that deamons are multiversal, they can and do go anywhere the warp touches and the warp touches every reality and the entire 40k universe.
Every ork functions as an individual - tyranids do not. They are nothing alike.
Nope, not anymore, when the Waagh gets big enough they are basically driven by the waagh, the Waaaagh has the same effect as the shadow in that it makes coms difficult, drives psykers mad and has an aura of dread, the hive mind needs a locus to enact its will and if destroyed the lower creatures become disordered, same happens when the locus of a Waagh is killed.
The post you quoted doesn't say anything that you responded to.
It doesn't say the Old Ones or the Necrons never fought in other galaxies. It says the Old Ones and Necrons don't come from outside our galaxy, as you explicitly alleged they did.
Sorry but you are very very wrong, it was in a recent book but the old ones and necrons fought over galaxies, just because the homeworld is in the milky way, does not mean they did not fight in other galaxies, also its directly stated that deamons are multiversal, they can and do go anywhere the warp touches and the warp touches every reality and the entire 40k universe.
Could you please provide at source in regards to the war in heaven spanding multiple galaxies?
And I just stated that the Necrons and old ones do not stem from outside of the milkey way. I guess we agree on that.
In regards to your qoute-picture, half the qoutes reference worlds/universes exising inside the aether..
We still dont have any proof that the chaos gods have any power outside of the milky way.
Nope, not anymore, when the Waagh gets big enough they are basically driven by the waagh, the Waaaagh has the same effect as the shadow in that it makes coms difficult, drives psykers mad and has an aura of dread, the hive mind needs a locus to enact its will and if destroyed the lower creatures become disordered, same happens when the locus of a Waagh is killed.
Ref: beast arises series.
That effect was caused by the 6 prime orks. They do not exist in the current setting.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 23:55:29
Could you please provide at source in regards to the war in heaven spanding multiple galaxies?
its in Fabious bile clonelord IIRC, I will see if i can find it for you.
In regards to your qoute-picture, half the qoutes reference worlds/universes exising inside the aether..
We still dont have any proof that the chaos gods have any power outside of the milky way.
"from one end of the multiverse to the other, across space and time"
There you go, right there, multiverse is both the warp and every other reality.
then we have
"omniverse"
"Echoing across all the realms of existence"
"moves across universes"
And of course "the entire universe was devastated"
And those are just one such page of examples, there are 6, chaos gods have access to the whole of creation in every universe.
That effect was caused by the 6 prime orks. They do not exist in the current setting.
"Mag Uruk Thrakka"
This is the name that orks give the beasts.... 40k has one, any ork can become a beast given enough time and warfare, thats how orks were designed it seems, the similarities are there, like i said before its a tin foil hat theory but it does have merit, if the nids were designed, its likely the old ones designed them.
Edit: cant believe i forgot to mention that Eldrad directly mentions Ghazghull is the new beast BTW, thats why so many ork players were disapointed that there was no new model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/20 01:15:17
Ive always had a theory that the Tyranids were originaly created as some type of super advanced, self replicating bio weapon in a distant galaxy between an ongoing war between super advanced species A and super advanced species B.
Super advanced species A uses the tyranids to wipe out speceis B by having them consume all their living planets. However they quickly got out of hand and ended up eathing their species A as well. Once they were also dead the tyranids just kept on eating, ad infinutum across the universe. Essentialy they for some reason never got the command to 'stop eating' and have evolved around that core pricipal, their primary purpose for being ever since.
This whole 'feeding' thing by consuming all the biomass on a planet I think is a bit of a misnomer. We all know using just the chemical energy in food for interstellar travel would be hideiously inefficient. However the tyranids are well known to use 'bio plasma' as a weapon on their ships, implying they can use whatever materials they gather to sustain fusion power for much more efficient energy gathering.
Consuming biomass is just a means to an end to gather the rarer biological compounds (like chlorophyll ect) not found as commonly elseware in the universe in order to make MORE tyranids, not to provide them with energy. Tyranids are fully able to harvest inorganic materials like iron ect from dead planets and asteroids just as well as any other to combine with the organic material they onsume again to make MORE tyranids.
Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:All I can say is... thank you vodo40k...
Zweischneid wrote:No way man. A Space Marine in itself is scary. But a Marine WITHOUT helmet wears at least 3-times as much plot-armour as a Marine with helmet. And heaven forbid if the Marine would also happen to have an intimidating looking, vertical scar. Then you're surly boned. Those guys are the worst. Not a chance I'd say.
This whole 'feeding' thing by consuming all the biomass on a planet I think is a bit of a misnomer. We all know using just the chemical energy in food for interstellar travel would be hideiously inefficient. However the tyranids are well known to use 'bio plasma' as a weapon on their ships, implying they can use whatever materials they gather to sustain fusion power for much more efficient energy gathering.
Consuming biomass is just a means to an end to gather the rarer biological compounds (like chlorophyll ect) not found as commonly elseware in the universe in order to make MORE tyranids, not to provide them with energy. Tyranids are fully able to harvest inorganic materials like iron ect from dead planets and asteroids just as well as any other to combine with the organic material they onsume again to make MORE tyranids.
That’s much more sensible, and probably closer to the truth. The Hive Fleets are never ever explained, just their behaviour documented so we just don’t know what is really happening. We do know that Tyranids are able to substantially reduce the mass of a planet if they feed for long enough, so they can take a lot more than just “biomass” with them. It takes a long time though, like intensive farming on mega steroids until the planet has almost no worthwhile elements left to take (at least not without it not being worth the energy expenditure to get them).
In Devastation of Baal the marine conclave notes that Leviathan had changed it’s feeding habits in recent years, feeding in a frenzy and not bothering to do a really thorough job of it. Only taking the biomass, and leaving the greater mass behind (for other Fleets?). This actually supports your idea that the biomass is full of more complex elements for making more Tyranids and the rest is for other things (propulsion? Something else they need to use huge quantities of basic elements for after waking up?). Leviathan was interested in building an unstoppable invasion swarm to conquer Baal, so focused on doing just that.
vodo40k wrote: Ive always had a theory that the Tyranids were originaly created as some type of super advanced, self replicating bio weapon in a distant galaxy between an ongoing war between super advanced species A and super advanced species B.
Super advanced species A uses the tyranids to wipe out speceis B by having them consume all their living planets. However they quickly got out of hand and ended up eathing their species A as well. Once they were also dead the tyranids just kept on eating, ad infinutum across the universe. Essentialy they for some reason never got the command to 'stop eating' and have evolved around that core pricipal, their primary purpose for being ever since.
This whole 'feeding' thing by consuming all the biomass on a planet I think is a bit of a misnomer. We all know using just the chemical energy in food for interstellar travel would be hideiously inefficient. However the tyranids are well known to use 'bio plasma' as a weapon on their ships, implying they can use whatever materials they gather to sustain fusion power for much more efficient energy gathering.
Consuming biomass is just a means to an end to gather the rarer biological compounds (like chlorophyll ect) not found as commonly elseware in the universe in order to make MORE tyranids, not to provide them with energy. Tyranids are fully able to harvest inorganic materials like iron ect from dead planets and asteroids just as well as any other to combine with the organic material they onsume again to make MORE tyranids.
Isnt that kinda what happened with the replicators from SG1? i vaguely remember a young lady created them as a toy or some such
Not up to date with more recent fluff butt my ideas was that the planet stripping was some form of scientific investigation. It would be a brute way of checking everything, taking everything into the hive ship for chemical and biological analysis.
As for the purpose of this scientific investigation, it might be to check suitability for the galaxy in general for... feeding, colonisation, whatever. And also to establish what approach to take in future conquests.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
Tyranids can certainly consume non-biological matter. In fact most biological matter is derived from inorganic material anyway. So all those minerals being rendered down makes sense. IT also makes sense that such "deep" feeding takes time and that one of the Hives greatest military assets is speed. The ability to defeat and consume a world and move on. A tactical move not to just defeat a foe, but to render the world unable to support life. It means any invasion has a bite that lasts even if the Fleet is defeated, because those lost worlds are inhospitable nightmares with no atmospheric protection; no native flora or fauna. Basically they are hunks of rock that would take vast investment to be habitable again, even if within protected cities.
In fact with that line of thinking not consuming the minerals as much means that future Hive fleets can strike along similar pathways and feed as they go on the worlds that are only partly consumed. We've already seen this happen with one fleet (I think Kraken) pre-digesting worlds for another fleet that is focused on fighting Demons (who don't leave food behind when they vanish once killed).
The true nature of the Hive Mind is unknown, we know its a mind, but its true nature and overall view on life and its goals are unknown. We can draw ideas from their activities, but its always a reactive concept not a proactive one. Tyranids can pull odd choices for long term goals that might be so far off we can't predict them; or it might be to throw any predictions on other activities into question.
Deception on an intergalactic scale.
One thing I find interesting that often gets overlooked is that if you look at lot of early Tyranid models and artwork, many of them are holding weapons. The weapons, whilst biological, are held in claws and hands. Even now we see the edges of that, however many weapons appear now to be directly fused to the body at multiple points; many to the point where weapon and monster are the one and same. It's interesting to see this almost melting blend take place within the swarm and how they appear. A testament to their evolution; but it could also suggest other possibilities about their evolution and function. Especially when some,such as warriors, are still clearly holding individual weapons that are separate from their bodies without connecting tubes or fused claws.
I've often wondered if this means that something might be going "wrong" for the hive. Is this fusing natural for them or is something wrong on a genetic level. Maybe the warp is affecting them in some subtle way that we can't quite see and that isn't detected. We know that the Shadow in the Warp drives the warp back from where Tyranids are, but that doesn't mean it can't eat away or worm its way into the Tyranids to affect them. That the Warp has also led to huge disturbances in the hive mind itself adds to that belief.
Perhaps the Milky Way is a vast weak point between one reality and another; that other galaxies exist without any taint of chaos corruption. Is the Great Rift even more than just a threat to this Galaxy; is our Galaxy a vast bleeding weak point ready to burst and spill the warp further into the universe. Are Tyranids responding in part to that; are they come to cleanse and eat away the wound like a vast intergalactic leach. Consume the waste dead flesh of the Galaxy to help cleans it from further infection and seal the wound for good.
Isnt that kinda what happened with the replicators from SG1? i vaguely remember a young lady created them as a toy or some such
From what I recall the origin of them is that there was a single AI unit made in human form. She was able to create further robots from the components - ergo she made the Replicators. Early on they were a toy/experiment for her though she was an experiment as well. When the order was given to have her shut down she rebelled and I believe became deactivated; but not before creating replicators to protect herself. However their AI back them was very feral/simplistic. So they followed their basic core code - destroy, replicate, expand, destroy etc.... Later they got more intelligent in a big way and gained new ideals, though they were always on the side of being somewhat child-like in terms of how they understood the world and reacted to things - ergo very impulsive; but quick to learn.
vodo40k wrote: Ive always had a theory that the Tyranids were originaly created as some type of super advanced, self replicating bio weapon in a distant galaxy between an ongoing war between super advanced species A and super advanced species B.
Super advanced species A uses the tyranids to wipe out speceis B by having them consume all their living planets. However they quickly got out of hand and ended up eathing their species A as well. Once they were also dead the tyranids just kept on eating, ad infinutum across the universe. Essentialy they for some reason never got the command to 'stop eating' and have evolved around that core pricipal, their primary purpose for being ever since.
This whole 'feeding' thing by consuming all the biomass on a planet I think is a bit of a misnomer. We all know using just the chemical energy in food for interstellar travel would be hideiously inefficient. However the tyranids are well known to use 'bio plasma' as a weapon on their ships, implying they can use whatever materials they gather to sustain fusion power for much more efficient energy gathering.
Consuming biomass is just a means to an end to gather the rarer biological compounds (like chlorophyll ect) not found as commonly elseware in the universe in order to make MORE tyranids, not to provide them with energy. Tyranids are fully able to harvest inorganic materials like iron ect from dead planets and asteroids just as well as any other to combine with the organic material they onsume again to make MORE tyranids.
Isnt that kinda what happened with the replicators from SG1? i vaguely remember a young lady created them as a toy or some such
Haha, yup. A young android lady, I think. Everyone was suspicious of her, so she made a pet, or something like that.
Tyranids could be a biological version of "grey goo". Some experiment or technology gone horribly wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 23:43:00
The only reason I can think of that the Nids bother with consuming planetary ecologies is for unique DNA patterns they can use to improve themselves. They could easily build thousands of time the biomass from harvesting comets and small moons without pesky gravity wells. It makes me wonder if Rippers don't have built-in DNA analyzing glands so that everything can be sorted and uploaded to the hive mind prior to proper digestion.
The tyranids did actually use to strip the planets of minerals (those usefull to them) all the way down to the bedrock. But with so much prey around, they simply dont bother anymore.
And you have to remember, that the earths crust contains vast amounts of elements that might not be very interesting to them. Like silicon.
Delays and other problems in warp communication would basically necessitate the splintering of the hive mind anyways, and they may well not sync up again as the hive mind fragments 'diverge' Even if the Tyranids started as a monolithic hive fleet, they aren't one anymore.
It is clearly stated in "The devestation of baal", that the hive mind is one.
Example:
"the lictor looked like a creature unto itself. It moved as a solitary organism. It had operated on its own for years, far away from the hive fleet. But it was not apart from the hive mind. That was the mistake the prey always made. Even at this corpuscular level, it was a mistake to see the lictor as a lictor, one of millions; there were not many, there was one. The lictor was the lictor. Every iteration was a copy, better than perfect for aeons of improvement, party to the actions, mistakes and successes of every other lictor that had come before. Welded to the very genes of its being were untold millions of years of experience. And it was on Baal just as it was simultaneously on a thousand other worlds throughout the galaxy"
Also:
Spoiler:
Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be. It recovered quickly, diminished but alive, but that moment seemed to the hive mind an eternity of darkness. Trillions of its creatures permanently lost touch with the hive mind, and were reduced to unthinking animals.
For the first time in its existence, the hive mind tasted death.
[spoiler]
nou wrote: The Great Devourer is not a synonym for some singular Hive Mind organism or Tyranid equivalent of Warp based god
That's exactly what it is. A feeling and thinking entity. This was made VERY clear in "the devastation of baal". I can find the quote if you wish.
Its has always been a thinking entity. Only the "feeling" part is new.
I would love to read that quote and any others you may have, out of pure interest.
nou wrote: The Great Devourer is not a synonym for some singular Hive Mind organism or Tyranid equivalent of Warp based god
That's exactly what it is. A feeling and thinking entity. This was made VERY clear in "the devastation of baal". I can find the quote if you wish.
Its has always been a thinking entity. Only the "feeling" part is new.
Oh, but I agree that Hive Mind is a thinking and conscious being, but as I wrote earlier, it is a consciousness emergent on the total sum of interacting Synapse Creatures. The whole Tyranid race thinks and acts as one, a singular mind divided into myriads of tiny bodies. In that way Hive Mind is not a Warp God and is not embodied in a singular "large creature". I hope it is clear now what I had in mind.
Neither the old ones, nor the necrons have ever been stated to stem from outside the 40k galaxy (and we KNOW that the necron homeworld is in the milkey way). Deamons have been stated to exist in other realities (like age of sigmar) but never outside the 40K galaxy.
Sorry but you are very very wrong, it was in a recent book but the old ones and necrons fought over galaxies, just because the homeworld is in the milky way, does not mean they did not fight in other galaxies, also its directly stated that deamons are multiversal, they can and do go anywhere the warp touches and the warp touches every reality and the entire 40k universe.
Every ork functions as an individual - tyranids do not. They are nothing alike.
Nope, not anymore, when the Waagh gets big enough they are basically driven by the waagh, the Waaaagh has the same effect as the shadow in that it makes coms difficult, drives psykers mad and has an aura of dread, the hive mind needs a locus to enact its will and if destroyed the lower creatures become disordered, same happens when the locus of a Waagh is killed.
Ref: beast arises series.
Sorry, that seems to be exactly what Andersonsp90 said. I mean, some of its clearly hyperbolic and meant to illustrate the power of the Warp, but besides the one about Tzeentch's staff, they all refer to spanning across multiple universes or realms, like 40k, Age of Sigmar, Original Fantasy and whatever, so it's fairly clear that that's what the thing is referring to. The Warp existing
As for the Tzeentch's staff one, that's fairly easily explained, as "he'd rule over all creation" and "a conflict so big that the entire universe was devastated" are fairly clearly hyperbolic, because as we know, Tzeentch wouldn't rule over literally all creation. He didn't the first time he had the staff, he only had considerably more power, so its fairly clear that the language used isn't to be relied on.
Also, do you have a quote for the Necrons outside the galaxy thing?
Formosa wrote: Could you please provide at source in regards to the war in heaven spanding multiple galaxies?
its in Fabious bile clonelord IIRC, I will see if i can find it for you.
Plz do, because it makes zero sense in regards to the current necron codex fluff.
"from one end of the multiverse to the other, across space and time"
There you go, right there, multiverse is both the warp and every other reality.
We still dont know if the chaos gods/the warp has any influence outside of the milkey way.
And it seems like the tyranids have never encountered them/it before.
That effect was caused by the 6 prime orks. They do not exist in the current setting.
"Mag Uruk Thrakka"
This is the name that orks give the beasts.... 40k has one, any ork can become a beast given enough time and warfare, thats how orks were designed it seems, the similarities are there, like i said before its a tin foil hat theory but it does have merit, if the nids were designed, its likely the old ones designed them.
Edit: cant believe i forgot to mention that Eldrad directly mentions Ghazghull is the new beast BTW, thats why so many ork players were disapointed that there was no new model.
Little ghaz has alot of growing to do before he reaches the potential of even the weakest/smallest of the 6 prime orks. Might happen some day though. But not this time (8th edition).
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would love to read that quote and any others you may have, out of pure interest.
Here you go.
Spoiler:
The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling. It was as unaware of what it did as the wind.
is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.
The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.
And.
Spoiler:
This intelligence is emergent, coming from the billions of creatures in the swarms, but it is not an empty intellect, it is aware. It has a soul.’
‘You say then this being is a warp entity, born of the immaterium?’ asked a Librarian. ‘In our librarius we have theorised it is but another thing of Chaos wearing xenos skin'.
Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’
‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
Not a big fan of the whole "god" thing. I hope they don't take it any further.
Oh, but I agree that Hive Mind is a thinking and conscious being, but as I wrote earlier, it is a consciousness emergent on the total sum of interacting Synapse Creatures.
That is what is stated in the devastation of baal, yes. But I think its the total sum of every creature, not just those of the synapse breed.
I also think that you will enjoy this quote (TDOB).
Spoiler:
The lictor embraced it like a monster sneaking into bed to devour the sleeper.
This pivotal act was performed unnoticed. Not even the hive mind was truly aware of what the lictor did, for its constituent parts performed every action automatically. A man does not feel his blood cells about their work.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 10:18:44
Oh, but I agree that Hive Mind is a thinking and conscious being, but as I wrote earlier, it is a consciousness emergent on the total sum of interacting Synapse Creatures.
That is what is stated in the devastation of baal, yes. But I think its the total sum of every creature, not just those of the synapse breed.
I also think that you will enjoy this quote (TDOB).
Spoiler:
The lictor embraced it like a monster sneaking into bed to devour the sleeper.
This pivotal act was performed unnoticed. Not even the hive mind was truly aware of what the lictor did, for its constituent parts performed every action automatically. A man does not feel his blood cells about their work.
The reason why only consider Synapse Creatures to constitute Hive Mind is the same why medicine differentiate different systems in human body. Lictor being Independent is more akin to white blood cell than a tissue cell - put a bacteria in front of a leukocyte and it will start chasing it, independent from any nerve response. Creatures with Instinctive Behavior are more like body parts (or more like intestines in case of rippers or haruspexes). Body parts are somewhat independend to some stimuli - hit yourself in Achilles tendon and your foot will move, run a pencil up your sole and toes will curl - that is what Instinctive Behavior is, and obviously eyes and ears of lesser creatures provide sensory information for the mind. But the actual thought process is conducted by nerve cells (both in central and to some extent in peripheral nervous system). With hive fleets however, the more adequate analogy than how mammals are constructed is how octopoda nervous system is organized, with both up and down communication between cells happening and tendrils acting and thinking independently and locally.
It should be easy to guess by now, that what I find most fascinating about Tyranids is how deeply anchored in real world neurology this faction is.
I think one key difference is that a lictor can behave on its own without the main thought/focus of the Hive Mind being upon it. However if it needs to then the Hive Mind can (provided the Tyranid is synapse or within range) take over and fully control any Tyranid or group of Tyranids.
So it operates like a body, but if it wants it can take complete and total control over individual parts and segments. This gives it a vastly powerful adaptability and ability to change behaviours to confuse opponents.
We still dont know if the chaos gods/the warp has any influence outside of the milkey way.
And it seems like the tyranids have never encountered them/it before.
The tyranids would have encountered something, but likely not the chaos gods or their followers as we know them.
And yes we do know categorically that the warp extends to every part of reality, where there is reality, the warp sits behind it, its a dark mirror, as the gods can affect any part of the warp, they can also go anyhwhere in reality, i remember a short story where some necron... sniper things, i forget their name, were sitting in a pocket dimension and deamons just flooded into it, they dont care which dimension you are in, you wont get away.
Little ghaz has alot of growing to do before he reaches the potential of even the weakest/smallest of the 6 prime orks. Might happen some day though. But not this time (8th edition).
Nah the model just needs updating to represent a beast, Ghazzy is STR 12 T6, thats already plenty beefy, short of making him T8, not sure what else they could do to show he is A "Beast", it will happen though, they have forshadowed it and all they need to do is pull the trigger, fun times ahead.
Oh, but I agree that Hive Mind is a thinking and conscious being, but as I wrote earlier, it is a consciousness emergent on the total sum of interacting Synapse Creatures.
That is what is stated in the devastation of baal, yes. But I think its the total sum of every creature, not just those of the synapse breed.
I also think that you will enjoy this quote (TDOB).
Spoiler:
The lictor embraced it like a monster sneaking into bed to devour the sleeper.
This pivotal act was performed unnoticed. Not even the hive mind was truly aware of what the lictor did, for its constituent parts performed every action automatically. A man does not feel his blood cells about their work.
The reason why only consider Synapse Creatures to constitute Hive Mind is the same why medicine differentiate different systems in human body. Lictor being Independent is more akin to white blood cell than a tissue cell - put a bacteria in front of a leukocyte and it will start chasing it, independent from any nerve response.
A leukocyte does not have any processing power - a termagaunts brain does. I view each tyranid as a biological computer, linked together by biological routers (synapse creatures), with the sum of its parts creating one giant super computer = the hive mind.
The tyranids would have encountered something, but likely not the chaos gods or their followers as we know them.
No, they haven't.
"From across the cold gulfs of intergalactic space the hive fleets had come, moving from one feeding ground to the next. The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals."
And yes we do know categorically that the warp extends to every part of reality, where there is reality, the warp sits behind it, its a dark mirror, as the gods can affect any part of the warp, they can also go anyhwhere in reality, i remember a short story where some necron... sniper things, i forget their name, were sitting in a pocket dimension and deamons just flooded into it, they dont care which dimension you are in, you wont get away.
No, we dont. And we KNOW that the dark gods/demons can not enter the materium without some kind of "key". Be it a psyker, sacrifices, warp rifts, gates (like the poor necrons provided) etc. So, the dark gods can only enter a galaxy that has creatures connected to the warp, and judging by the tyranids experience, there might only be one of those in the 40K universe... the milkey way.
Nah the model just needs updating to represent a beast, Ghazzy is STR 12 T6, thats already plenty beefy, short of making him T8, not sure what else they could do to show he is A "Beast", it will happen though, they have forshadowed it and all they need to do is pull the trigger, fun times ahead.
Wtf are you talking about? Ghaz has a base STR of 6! He is FAR from being a prime ork. It might happen some day, but not in this edition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 18:52:41
A leukocyte does not have any processing power - a termagaunts brain does. I view each tyranid as a biological computer, linked together by biological routers (synapse creatures), with the sum of its parts creating one giant super computer = the hive mind.
To be clear, we are basically thinking the same, with just different analogies. But for the sake of precision - a leukocyte does have a computing power, every cell does (every cell is basically a DNA/RNA based Turing machine, the very quality exploited by viruses), and leukocytes actually chase bacterias through a maze of surrounding cells. And when you compare leukocyte's computing power and acting capabilities to computing powers and acting capabilities of entire human, you get discrepancy of similar orders of magnitude to that when you compare computing power of termagaunt to that of a Hive Mind, or a single computer to an entire internet connectome. Different analogies, same resulting emergent qualities.
As to Warp theories - it is quite an accepted fact, that Warp Gods are created as separate entities by the total of psychic potential of individual physical sentient beings that make up any given 40K race. If that is true and Hive Mind is the lowest level on which Tyranids are trully sentient, then Shadow in the Warp would be akin to near ideal psychic vacuum, because in the space occupied by hordes of Tyranid forces only a single consciousness exists. Similar to how Imperial blanks affect nearby psykers and deamons by having no warp presence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 19:16:33
"From across the cold gulfs of intergalactic space the hive fleets had come, moving from one feeding ground to the next. The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals."
that is directly talking about the followers of the chaos gods, since deamons cant be eaten by tyranids, so my statement stands, they likely have not encountered the chaos gods or their folowers as we know them.
No, we dont. And we KNOW that the dark gods/demons can not enter the materium without some kind of "key". Be it a psyker, sacrifices, warp rifts, gates (like the poor necrons provided) etc. So, the dark gods can only enter a galaxy that has creatures connected to the warp, and judging by the tyranids experience, there might only be one of those in the 40K universe... the milkey way.
Nope, the gods cannot but they can go anywhere in the warp and the warp touches all realities, so the gods can affect any part in time and space, to what extent is debatable, the fact that they can do it is not.
Wtf are you talking about? Ghaz has a base STR of 6! He is FAR from being a prime ork. It might happen some day, but not in this edition.
I misread his toughness its 5, my mistake, but he is str12 with the claw and every depiction of the beasts has them using such technology, what we would likely call mega armour, so again my point stands, short of making him tougher, there isnt much else needed.
as it stands now Ghaz is 1 point lower T than a primarch, hardly "far from being a primork"
To be clear, we are basically thinking the same, with just different analogies. But for the sake of precision - a leukocyte does have a computing power, every cell does (every cell is basically a DNA/RNA based Turing machine, the very quality exploited by viruses), and leukocytes actually chase bacterias through a maze of surrounding cells. And when you compare leukocyte's computing power and acting capabilities to computing powers and acting capabilities of entire human, you get discrepancy of similar orders of magnitude to that when you compare computing power of termagaunt to that of a Hive Mind, or a single computer to an entire internet connectome. Different analogies, same resulting emergent qualities.
Sounds like you have a medical background too. My point is that the processes/internal workings of a termagants brain are far more complex than that of a leukocyte. And that is why I like the computer analogy better. But it seems that we agree regardless.
As to Warp theories - it is quite an accepted fact, that Warp Gods are created as separate entities by the total of psychic potential of individual physical sentient beings that make up any given 40K race. If that is true and Hive Mind is the lowest level on which Tyranids are trully sentient, then Shadow in the Warp would be akin to near ideal psychic vacuum, because in the space occupied by hordes of Tyranid forces only a single consciousness exists. Similar to how Imperial blanks affect nearby psykers and deamons by having no warp presence.
But the tyranids are not blanks? Quite the opposite. But I think i might be misunderstanding you.
Formosa wrote: From across the cold gulfs of intergalactic space the hive fleets had come, moving from one feeding ground to the next. The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals."
that is directly talking about the followers of the chaos gods, since deamons cant be eaten by tyranids, so my statement stands, they likely have not encountered the chaos gods or their folowers as we know them.
No. It just states that the races within the milkey way have a psychic footprint in the warp/a connection to the warp.
Nope, the gods cannot but they can go anywhere in the warp and the warp touches all realities, so the gods can affect any part in time and space, to what extent is debatable, the fact that they can do it is not.
The warp is present in ALL realities, but we do not know if it spans the entirety of those realities.
I misread his toughness its 5, my mistake, but he is str12 with the claw and every depiction of the beasts has them using such technology, what we would likely call mega armour, so again my point stands, short of making him tougher, there isnt much else needed.
EVERY warboss using a powerklaw in the current codex is STR 12 and T5 (same base STR of 6 as ghaz). So by your logic, all warbosses using powerklaws are prime orks now?
Like I said, he might be on the road to becoming a prime ork, but he sure as hell isn't there yet.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 20:48:25
The OP is flawed. Tyranids do not colonize planets because planets cannot sustain them. Think about the sheer size of a Hive Fleet, millions upon millions of massive multi-kilometer sized organisms, meanwhile our planet can barely sustain us.
Hive Fleet Tiamet shows that, because while forced to colonize a planet, the sector is not enough to sustain it, forcing the Hive Fleet to raid neighboring sectors for resources.
nou wrote: As to Warp theories - it is quite an accepted fact, that Warp Gods are created as separate entities by the total of psychic potential of individual physical sentient beings that make up any given 40K race. If that is true and Hive Mind is the lowest level on which Tyranids are trully sentient, then Shadow in the Warp would be akin to near ideal psychic vacuum, because in the space occupied by hordes of Tyranid forces only a single consciousness exists. Similar to how Imperial blanks affect nearby psykers and deamons by having no warp presence.
But the tyranids are not blanks? Quite the opposite. But I think i might be misunderstanding you.
There is a big if in that sentence. I personally do not consider individual gaunts as psychic beings and Powers of the Hive Mind are even explicitly stated as non warp based and that Tyranid equivalent of Perils is a synaptic backlash. In other words - Tyranid psychic influence over other races may be Warp based (i.e. Tyranids are Warp capable), but internal influence would be more like pituitary gland releasing additional hormones that stimulate lesser organisms to do as required in given situation.
Except that the Hive Mind has been described as a Warp entity. A massively powerful one, practically a god. It has been stated that individual Tyranids do have a psychic presence, although one that is simple and weak but are tied together to make the unbelievably powerful Hive Mind.
Tyran wrote: Except that the Hive Mind has been described as a Warp entity. A massively powerful one, practically a god. It has been stated that individual Tyranids do have a psychic presence, although one that is simple and weak but are tied together to make the unbelievably powerful Hive Mind.
There is nothing that prevents a hive fleet form conquering a planet, leaving behind organisms to colonize it, and then move on.
- it just wouldn't gain anything from that strategy.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 21:47:37
It sounds like the fluff has changed a tremendous deal over the last 5 editions. Tyranids don't use the warp for their Hive Mind? WTF? That's just ridiculous and unnecessary.
The quotes from Devestation of Baal are completely at odds with the older fluff that I prefer. It saddens me that the setting has shifted in ways that make no sense and ignore the ramifications of older background material.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It sounds like the fluff has changed a tremendous deal over the last 5 editions. Tyranids don't use the warp for their Hive Mind? WTF? That's just ridiculous and unnecessary.
The quotes from Devestation of Baal are completely at odds with the older fluff that I prefer. It saddens me that the setting has shifted in ways that make no sense and ignore the ramifications of older background material.
Yes, it is due to those previous Tyranid Codex writers being more interested in making their mark on the background by introducing some never before seen "twist" and upending the existing background. The narvhal is an example of this. Frankly in a shared fictional IP, with different writers, I am more impressed by writers that can stick to the consensus and minimize introduction of radical new factors. It is a lot more effort to color within the lines than it is to just wildly go outside of them, doing your own thing because you don't care about what anyone before you has done.
nou wrote: As to Warp theories - it is quite an accepted fact, that Warp Gods are created as separate entities by the total of psychic potential of individual physical sentient beings that make up any given 40K race. If that is true and Hive Mind is the lowest level on which Tyranids are trully sentient, then Shadow in the Warp would be akin to near ideal psychic vacuum, because in the space occupied by hordes of Tyranid forces only a single consciousness exists. Similar to how Imperial blanks affect nearby psykers and deamons by having no warp presence.
But the tyranids are not blanks? Quite the opposite. But I think i might be misunderstanding you.
There is a big if in that sentence. I personally do not consider individual gaunts as psychic beings and Powers of the Hive Mind are even explicitly stated as non warp based and that Tyranid equivalent of Perils is a synaptic backlash. In other words - Tyranid psychic influence over other races may be Warp based (i.e. Tyranids are Warp capable), but internal influence would be more like pituitary gland releasing additional hormones that stimulate lesser organisms to do as required in given situation.
I still think they (gaunts) have a psychic footprint within the warp. It might be very small (like the tau). but I think its there.
They are not nulls. That is for sure.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/12/22 23:09:49
My point is that the processes/internal workings of a termagants brain are far more complex than that of a leukocyte. And that is why I like the computer analogy better. But it seems that we agree regardless.
