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I do not buy that the hive mind is just all the tyranid creatures / tyranid synapse creatures in a spesific aria gives rise to the hive mind as an innate propperty of the brood telepathy. The hive mind is to smart for that. Do the induvidual lesser brain make some form of super computer that can calculate strategy trancending the smaller computers. I know if you slave lesser computers together you get more processing power. But what actually programs the problem solution?
It sounds rather like the hive mind is a seperate thing.
And how does one strain of nids seemingly learn from another one, like by way of the swarmlord. Is that like downloading an updated program from some other cluster of super computers out there?
That explanation does not sitt well with me, but if GW where to write that it would be the explenation they are going for.
Niiai wrote: I do not buy that the hive mind is just all the tyranid creatures / tyranid synapse creatures in a spesific aria gives rise to the hive mind as an innate propperty of the brood telepathy. The hive mind is to smart for that. Do the induvidual lesser brain make some form of super computer that can calculate strategy trancending the smaller computers. I know if you slave lesser computers together you get more processing power. But what actually programs the problem solution?
It sounds rather like the hive mind is a seperate thing.
And how does one strain of nids seemingly learn from another one, like by way of the swarmlord. Is that like downloading an updated program from some other cluster of super computers out there?
That explanation does not sitt well with me, but if GW where to write that it would be the explenation they are going for.
Read more on how neural networks perform computation and store information, maybe it will convince you.
Yes I aknowledge that they have done so in one media example. How ever GW being GW, we should not rule out the possabillaty of other official directions as well. And just because the local tyranid strain is running on an autopiloted neural network it does not mean that there is not some othe entety above this that can tap into it and steer it.
While not a contradictions with the direction in the books I really liked the direction they took in Dawn of War II Retribution the tyranid campain. There you play as a induvidual hive tyrant that gets instructions from the hivemind by way of instructions. From having very little insight into how the nids functioned up to that points it worked quite well. The hive tyrants do have some induvidualaty within the swarm. What was facinating was that in order to travel from plannet to plannet fast enough you had to break down the hivetyrant in a digestion pool or the process would take to late.
While this cleraly is narated to mirror where the other races try to make it to a teleporter platform or a spaceship leaving the plannet it fitted quite nice. It does draw some parrarels to religions where enteties have to manifest with avatars. Or relogions where you return to some sort of source part of a bigger thing. This would also be what the machines alude to for programs in the later matrix movies.
Edit: Actually I re-read the quotes and I think they might be a bit mis-interpreted. The first passage states that the tyranid is a thinking thing, and entety. While we do not know the source it seems to be a general fact stating exposition.
However, when they space marines speculate in what the hive mind is, they are not nesaseraly stating the facts. They are not confirmed true narators. Its is they that are implying the neural network theory.
General Imperial Speculation:
Spoiler:
The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling. It was as unaware of what it did as the wind.
is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
True statements by the narator/true expossision
Spoiler:
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.
The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.
Space Marine Speculation:
Spoiler:
This intelligence is emergent, coming from the billions of creatures in the swarms, but it is not an empty intellect, it is aware. It has a soul.’
‘You say then this being is a warp entity, born of the immaterium?’ asked a Librarian. ‘In our librarius we have theorised it is but another thing of Chaos wearing xenos skin'.
Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’
‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 00:36:25
Niiai wrote: Yes I aknowledge that they have done so in one media example. How ever GW being GW, we should not rule out the possabillaty of other official directions as well. And just because the local tyranid strain is running on an autopiloted neural network it does not mean that there is not some othe entety above this that can tap into it and steer it.
While not a contradictions with the direction in the books I really liked the direction they took in Dawn of War II Retribution the tyranid campain. There you play as a induvidual hive tyrant that gets instructions from the hivemind by way of instructions. From having very little insight into how the nids functioned up to that points it worked quite well. The hive tyrants do have some induvidualaty within the swarm. What was facinating was that in order to travel from plannet to plannet fast enough you had to break down the hivetyrant in a digestion pool or the process would take to late.
While this cleraly is narated to mirror where the other races try to make it to a teleporter platform or a spaceship leaving the plannet it fitted quite nice. It does draw some parrarels to religions where enteties have to manifest with avatars. Or relogions where you return to some sort of source part of a bigger thing. This would also be what the machines alude to for programs in the later matrix movies.
Edit: Actually I re-read the quotes and I think they might be a bit mis-interpreted. The first passage states that the tyranid is a thinking thing, and entety. While we do not know the source it seems to be a general fact stating exposition.
However, when they space marines speculate in what the hive mind is, they are not nesaseraly stating the facts. They are not confirmed true narators. Its is they that are implying the neural network theory.
General Imperial Speculation:
Spoiler:
The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling. It was as unaware of what it did as the wind.
is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
True statements by the narator/true expossision
Spoiler:
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.
The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.
Space Marine Speculation:
Spoiler:
This intelligence is emergent, coming from the billions of creatures in the swarms, but it is not an empty intellect, it is aware. It has a soul.’
‘You say then this being is a warp entity, born of the immaterium?’ asked a Librarian. ‘In our librarius we have theorised it is but another thing of Chaos wearing xenos skin'.
Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’
‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
The hive mind is mentioned as the "gestalt soul of the tyranids" by the narrator.
This was already established back in the 5th edition codex.
Spoiler:
But the sons of the Great Angel were less afflicted than their foe.
Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares. The delicate synaptic web that bound its numberless minds into one being shrivelled like thread in a fire. Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded. Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be. It recovered quickly, diminished but alive, but that moment seemed to the hive mind an eternity of darkness. Trillions of its creatures permanently lost touch with the hive mind, and were reduced to unthinking animals.
For the first time in its existence, the hive mind tasted death.
In the Baal system hundreds of thousands of tyranids died, their brain stems reduced to smoking mulch by psychic feedback. Aggressive void predators became drifting hulks in the space of an instant. In the strategium Dante collapsed, unconscious. Thousands of Space Marines of the Blood followed him. Many awoke with no memory of who they were, their scarred minds full of visions of Sanguinius’ death. The end of their own lives in madness and blood beckoned.
The Cicatrix Maledictum had opened.
Also, the hive mind is not a localised phenomenon. Every hive fleet is interlinked. There is only one Hive mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/23 01:25:23
But the sons of the Great Angel were less afflicted than their foe.
Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares. The delicate synaptic web that bound its numberless minds into one being shrivelled like thread in a fire. Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded. Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be. It recovered quickly, diminished but alive, but that moment seemed to the hive mind an eternity of darkness. Trillions of its creatures permanently lost touch with the hive mind, and were reduced to unthinking animals.
For the first time in its existence, the hive mind tasted death.
In the Baal system hundreds of thousands of tyranids died, their brain stems reduced to smoking mulch by psychic feedback. Aggressive void predators became drifting hulks in the space of an instant. In the strategium Dante collapsed, unconscious. Thousands of Space Marines of the Blood followed him. Many awoke with no memory of who they were, their scarred minds full of visions of Sanguinius’ death. The end of their own lives in madness and blood beckoned.
The Cicatrix Maledictum had opened.
Is there anything here that makes a clear distiontion of the 'sentience inherent property of neural network theory' or the 'entety outside of the neural network' theory? Not as far as I can see.
"Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares."
This is just metaphorical language. An entety controlling the swarm through the neural network could fit a description of a soul, but so could the soul in the machine meraphore (courtesey of ghost in the shell.)
"The delicate synaptic web that bound its numberless minds into one being shrivelled like thread in a fire. Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded."
Either theory would need to use the neural network to interact with the bodies.
"Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted"
This would imply something beyond the emergent property of the network. Or it could be meraphore.
"Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded. Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be."
This would fir the emergent neural network theory very well. But if the hive mind enetety can only interact with the material realm by way of the tyranids, could not being without sensory imputt or any way to interact with the world be be caled ceased to be, at least metaphoricaly.
In the end we have very few sources for either argument. We need more srouces from GW. The above passage can be interpreted a whole lot of ways, at least two, and I would not lay the official statement from GW on a few sentences in a fictionel novel. The three previus passages discussed only one of them is from a credited narator. The other two quoted sections comes from sources who do not have perfect information. In fact the second passage states that the first quote is in fact wrong. Mind you, it does not go further into weather it is the emergent propperty enettey theory, or the external entety theory.
All in all, these are just fantasy stories published by a company making plastic miniatures. It is not scripture we are reading, I need more statements from GW before I consider anything official cannon. If you want to stick with your interpretation nobody is gonne take your plastic miniature lisence away. But for me, it is yet unclear what way GW is leaning. But they can stil continue publishing tyranid themed novels. They are a good enemy for stories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/23 01:27:47
"Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded. Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be."
This would fir the emergent neural network theory very well. But if the hive mind enetety can only interact with the material realm by way of the tyranids, could not being without sensory imputt or any way to interact with the world be be caled ceased to be, at least metaphoricaly.
During epileptic seizure a person's consciousness ceases to exist for a brief moment due to interruption of normal neuronal activity, while both the body and the brain of such person still exist in the physical world and in some cases (known as absence seizures), body continues to perform simple tasks. This quoted description catches that quite nicely.
I would invoke Ocham Razor here - for me nonemergent being is simply superficial since we already know, that extending neural networks beyond physical boundaries of singular bodies and networking them is sufficient for all Hive Mind properties to be observable.
In the end we have very few sources for either argument. We need more srouces from GW.
The fact that the hive mind is the gestalt collective consciousness of the tyranid race is established in the 5th edition tyanid codex. It's not up for discussion.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 02:56:41
I would have to see the source. I had the 5th edition and codex and can not recall such a thing. Considering you quoting unconfirmed sources earlier I am not sure I can trust your abilaty as a source without the sitation. Mind you I am not calling you a liar, you might just be wrongly interpid it. You might also be right. I can just not recall such a thing forl the 5th edition codex.
As for occams razor i am not sure that apllies in a setting that among other things got a realm where time itself does not excist. (See birthing of slanesh.) But there is a direct quote that the tyranids have a singular soul. We know this setting has souls seperate from a mind. It is what slaneesh snacks on among other things. A soul is something different from a mind, emergent or not. I stil think the jury is out on this one.
"Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares."
Niiai wrote: I would have to see the source. I had the 5th edition and codex and can not recall such a thing. Considering you quoting unconfirmed sources earlier I am not sure I can trust your abilaty as a source without the sitation. Mind you I am not calling you a liar, you might just be wrongly interpid it. You might also be right. I can just not recall such a thing forl the 5th edition codex.
I have not quoted unconfirmed sources, as they just confirm/build on what is already established in the 5th edition codex and onwards. I have even stated ealier in this thread, that the "feeling" aspect of the hive mind is the only new thing we see in "the devastation of baal" in regards to the hive mind. I can't provide you with a picture/quote, as I am visiting my parents for the holdiday.
The wording is not 100% the same in the 8th edition codex, but the message is.
"Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind."
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 08:06:08
"Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind."
Yes that describes the hive mind very well. But it does not distinguish weather it the sungle unfathomable consciousnes is an emergent propperty of the synaptic web of all the creatures or if it is a sentience outside that is conveying it's well through the web. As stated previusly, this is to ambigius to draw a firm conclution from. You would have to ignore for instance the eralier sentence that talks about a soul.
Spoiler:
"Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares."
"Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind."
Yes that describes the hive mind very well. But it does not distinguish weather it the sungle unfathomable consciousnes is an emergent propperty of the synaptic web of all the creatures or if it is a sentience outside that is conveying it's well through the web. As stated previusly, this is to ambigius to draw a firm conclution from. You would have to ignore for instance the eralier sentence that talks about a soul.
Spoiler:
"Screaming warp fire crashed against the gestalt soul of the tyranids, catching it unawares."
Ok, lets break the sentence down into smaller bits.
"Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness"
So every thought and action of every tyranid lifeform is combined into a single consciousness.
"This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind"
Which makes it a gestalt sentience.
So, what is the definition of gestalt? Well:
"something that is made of many parts and yet is somehow more than or different from the combination of its parts"
My greater point is that we need mores rouces from this from GW. Not just one cherry picked sentence.
I am not so sure you are right about the use of the world gestalt there.
"This principle maintains that when the human mind (perceptual system) forms a percept or "gestalt", the whole has a reality of its own, independent of the parts. The original famous phrase of Gestalt psychologist Kurt Koffka, "the whole is something else than the sum of its parts"[2] is often incorrectly translated[3] as "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts", and thus used when explaining gestalt theory, and further incorrectly applied to systems theory.[4] Koffka did not like the translation. He firmly corrected students who replaced "other" with "greater". "This is not a principle of addition" he said.[5] The whole has an independent existence"
Niiai wrote: My greater point is that we need mores rouces from this from GW. Not just one cherry picked sentence.
I am not so sure you are right about the use of the world gestalt there.
"This principle maintains that when the human mind (perceptual system) forms a percept or "gestalt", the whole has a reality of its own, independent of the parts. The original famous phrase of Gestalt psychologist Kurt Koffka, "the whole is something else than the sum of its parts"[2] is often incorrectly translated[3] as "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts", and thus used when explaining gestalt theory, and further incorrectly applied to systems theory.[4] Koffka did not like the translation. He firmly corrected students who replaced "other" with "greater". "This is not a principle of addition" he said.[5] The whole has an independent existence"
Most likly the writers are choosing abigius wording to keep us gessing.
We KNOW what the meaning of gestalt is in this instance because "Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness", not BY a single unfathomable consciousness.
There is no need for guessing here..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/23 08:44:24
Niiai wrote: Did you just skip the quote I posted? Because it seems like you did not read a word of it.
We could go quote vs quote all the way. It is ambiguis.
I did, but you are clearly not understanding what you are quoting.
The whole has an independent existence, yes, but it is still THE SUM OF ITS PARTS. That is LITERALLY what your quote is stating.
Its parts = every single tyranid
The sum/whole = the hive mind
Does the hive mind have an "independent existence"? Yes. But is it still the SUM OF ITS PARTS. It can not exist on its own.
- which leads us to: "Never before had the hive mind been so grievously wounded. Its control over its trillions of bodies was violently disrupted. Hive fleet was cleaved from hive fleet, brood from brood so catastrophically that for a moment the hive mind ceased to be."
But this is a waste of time. Lets pick it up again when I get back to my 5th edition codex.
This message was edited 19 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 11:42:04
Well, 40k fluff is written from an in-universe perspective, so all of it is nothing but a collection of propaganda, stories and hearsay, or often in the case of the Nids, notes of a bunch of reseachers desperately trying to make sense of them in a world where travel and communication is hard and faulty.
Sure, but even by that standard some of this canon is crap. It's like having a discussion about the Star Trek setting where someone brings in "facts" from Enterprise and the JJ films. At some point, a setting that isn't curated properly becomes so full of contradictory information that one must either:
a) Admit that the writers gave up the ghost at some point and some canon needs to be thrown out.
b). Admit that the setting is so inconsistent that any meaningful statement about it can be both proven and disproven, so there is no point in attempting to codify it.
All canon information that we have about The Hive Mind points towards it being a gestalt intelligence.
And more importantly, we do not know any non-gestalt true intelligence. We humans are gestalt intelligences, we are born from 100 billion neurons in constant communication.
And the same applies to all multicellular life. Even our computers are gestalts made of logic gates, 1 and 0s.
they are building something, which is unusual, apparently other hives are 'feeding' them, which is unusual, this suggests whatever they are building is not just for themselves.
my guess?
they are building a psychic beacon, they are calling for reinforcements, or they are are building something to block out chaos from a 'safe' region to operate from.
they are building something, which is unusual, apparently other hives are 'feeding' them, which is unusual, this suggests whatever they are building is not just for themselves.
my guess?
they are building a psychic beacon, they are calling for reinforcements, or they are are building something to block out chaos from a 'safe' region to operate from.
or perhaps a combination, maybe to aid navigation
Or good old super weapon to put an end to all the non-sense of the tiny little race of the Milky Way.
they are building something, which is unusual, apparently other hives are 'feeding' them, which is unusual, this suggests whatever they are building is not just for themselves.
my guess?
they are building a psychic beacon, they are calling for reinforcements, or they are are building something to block out chaos from a 'safe' region to operate from.
or perhaps a combination, maybe to aid navigation
Or good old super weapon to put an end to all the non-sense of the tiny little race of the Milky Way.
given the lack of imagination and lazy writing GW sometimes go for a cheap star wars knock off is likely
This is my own headcannon, but as the Tyranids are extra galactic, I don't think they've encountered the Warp of the Milky Way... or the warp as we know it.
The warp itself might exists outside of the Milky Way as a dimension, but without stars, planets, civilizations and the emotions they create there is no Warp creatures or gods in the voids between Galaxies.
Other Galaxies might have their own localised version of the deities, but theyr'e like islands, just like galaxies. This is why the Tyranids (having conquered other galaxies, or at least one other) mostly ignore the warp gods... as they know they're finite.
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