Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the current way that the orders system works, Guardsmen end up looking more like superhuman mega-freaks in game than the supposed "superhumans" depicted in the other factions.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to move twice for free in the movement phase: Lightning-fast eldar and harlequins specialized in close combat, swarms of genestealers commanded by the most notorious tyranid command monster in the whole galaxy, an angel imbued with the emperor's godlike power, and guardsmen. Recently GW made it so the angel couldn't do that anymore because it felt unfair.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to fight twice for free in the fight phase: Crazy bezerk sisters of battle strapped to death walkers, khorne bezerkers dedicated to the god of war and skulls, and guardsmen.

There are a small number of units that can double their shots at will in the shooting phase: Massive Tau mechas bristling with missiles and cannons who fire pneumatic support struts into the ground and brace themselves before unleashing hellfire, space marines in specialized body-encapsulating suits of iron man armor who stand still and unload into oncoming enemy swarms, highly advanced crystal-powered eldar grav tanks, and regular guard tanks and guardsmen.

I understand what they were going for with the orders system, but the current incarnation of the mechanic ends up making other armies and specialist units who make just one of the at-will commands their specific "thing" feel inadequate. In my last game playing my Guard against some Eldar, I was able to effortlessly outpace the fething Eldar in a last-turn objective grab, sending upwards of 40 guard bodies flying across the board 20+" to flood an objective with obsec bodies.

Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Largely because the game rewards two or three things right now. Be super cheap to take up space, fish for 6s on wounds and generate CP. Be super fast and hard hitting, jumping from screen to screen unit and wrecking the enemy or be stupid durable and hand out a ton of rerolls. Medium to heavish infantry and tanks don't hold up.

Most infantry die at the same rate as guardsmen, so you taking anything worth more than them is not very points efficient.

What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!

- Lord Commander Solar Macharius

Nothing can compare to the power of the Human spirit! Orders simply unlock this awesome potential.

Because cheaper is better in 8th.

It should be noted that, while Orders are usually better buffs than auras, Orders affect a very limited amount of units, while auras affect anyone you can cram near the HQ.

But castling usually results in losing on objectives. Auras are NOT your friend.

Martel732 wrote:
But castling usually results in losing on objectives. Auras are NOT your friend.

So... Have a core of powerful units buffed by auras, and then have some mobile objective grabbers. Van Vets or Assault Marines who can Deepstrike and move fast, Scout Bikers who have great Dakka anywhere on the table, Terminators if you really love the models because they're not very good right now...

Martel732 wrote:
But castling usually results in losing on objectives. Auras are NOT your friend.

That’s why you have more than one

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

Kill the meat, save the metal.

Marines cost too damn much for that. Furthermore, its trivially easy for Eldar and IG to just ignore the "power units" for a couple of turns, and kill all the objective grabbers first. Marines don't have firepower, even with auras, to threaten the big boys. Especially IG, who can field so many wounds that marine shooting is pissing in the wind.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines cost too damn much for that. Furthermore, its trivially easy for Eldar and IG to just ignore the "power units" for a couple of turns, and kill all the objective grabbers first. Marines don't have firepower, even with auras, to threaten the big boys. Especially IG, who can field so many wounds that marine shooting is pissing in the wind.

So is the issue that Guardsmen are finally good, or that Marines just suck?

 Horst wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

Kill the meat, save the metal.

In the Guard, tanks have names, men have numbers.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines cost too damn much for that. Furthermore, its trivially easy for Eldar and IG to just ignore the "power units" for a couple of turns, and kill all the objective grabbers first. Marines don't have firepower, even with auras, to threaten the big boys. Especially IG, who can field so many wounds that marine shooting is pissing in the wind.

So is the issue that Guardsmen are finally good, or that Marines just suck?

Oh marines suck. Because they can't handle Drukhari, or Eldar, or Ynnarri, or IG, or DG, or Nids. IG are just the most soul crushing. I can't even hide from them.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines cost too damn much for that. Furthermore, its trivially easy for Eldar and IG to just ignore the "power units" for a couple of turns, and kill all the objective grabbers first. Marines don't have firepower, even with auras, to threaten the big boys. Especially IG, who can field so many wounds that marine shooting is pissing in the wind.

So is the issue that Guardsmen are finally good, or that Marines just suck?

Oh marines suck. Because they can't handle Drukhari, or Eldar, or Ynnarri, or IG, or DG, or Nids. IG are just the most soul crushing. I can't even hide from them.

And why is that? Is it because IG is supposed to be an NPC faction?

You can't hide from Eldar or Dark Eldar either. They're fast enough to get you wherever you go.

Eldar are close, but outright ignoring LoS is busted as feth.

Where did I say IG was supposed to be NPC faction? Reading in much?

IG is soul crushing because of the sheer number of wounds they can put on the table. Wounds you can never get rid of because of their sheer numbers.

So then why are Guard better than [non-Marine]?

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are close, but outright ignoring LoS is busted as feth.

Where did I say IG was supposed to be NPC faction? Reading in much?

You said it was especially soul-crushing. Why is that? You get killed just as badly by the space elves, and hiding doesn't do much of anything against them either.

Edit: And Dark Eldar can put a little less wounds, but at T6 4++ or T5 5++ -1 to be hit. With better shots too.

Being cheaper trumps almost everything.

Martel732 wrote:
Being cheaper trumps almost everything.

Must be why no one takes Castellans, the most expensive Knight, right?

I said almost. The castellan is propped up by a relic, too. Without that relic, it goes back in the closet. There are also dark reapers and such. Some expensive units can be worth it with the right special rules. But no such units exist for marines in general. I don't consider DG marines, or else they would qualify.

Martel732 wrote:
I said almost. The castellan is propped up by a relic, too. Without that relic, it goes back in the closet. There are also dark reapers and such. Some expensive units can be worth it with the right special rules. But no such units exist for marines in general. I don't consider DG marines, or else they would qualify.

So, by your definition, Marines have to be bad? Because Death Guard are pretty clearly Marines. They're Chaos, sure, but it seems like the disqualifying criteria for you is that they're good.

Well really 3 meta reasons guardsmen are so good.

First, quantity. all hordes forces in general reach a point where they have more cost to put attacks on them then they are worth. Mostly due to some weapons and Morale not scaling right.

Second, utility, Flashlight guardsmen do more damage and provide more ability on the table than they should at the points they cost.

Third, the game is very rewarding in several points of play to Admen with Guard being in a sweet spot where Cover makes them much better, and Orders, and the game scenario's make them much more efficient than they might.

It is always going to be hard to deal with mass infantry when armies tend towards bringing as much AT power as possible to deal with knights. How often are plasma guns and lascannons suggested as the best weapons for squads? Doesn't help much against cheap infantry.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I said almost. The castellan is propped up by a relic, too. Without that relic, it goes back in the closet. There are also dark reapers and such. Some expensive units can be worth it with the right special rules. But no such units exist for marines in general. I don't consider DG marines, or else they would qualify.

So, by your definition, Marines have to be bad? Because Death Guard are pretty clearly Marines. They're Chaos, sure, but it seems like the disqualifying criteria for you is that they're good.

T5 with 5+++ is a massive deviation from the marine statline. Give marines T5 and 5+++, and I'll say they're good.

It has been a long, long time since marines have been good at a basal level, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also really helping the IG that the kinds of weapons that are good against them are NOT good vs Drukahri and other Xenos. If I don't build in at least moderate levels of anti-Drukhari tech, I instantly lose against them. That means that I must make my lists less effective vs IG.

the_scotsman wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Orders are a really flavorful mechanic, and I think they're a good thing to have for the Guard. The orders are still being given to not-particularly-capable units though. Orders make a low-stat unit do a particular task sort of as well as a non-low-stat unit. But the bonus is limited to that single task, and they still have the downsides of having relatively puny stats.

The major upside of Guardsmen is that they are cheap, cheap, cheap. The loyal 32 is taken because they are a cheap way to generate CPs, and they're cheap enough to swamp objectives and ignore casualties to some degree. Guardsmen take up space, which helps out heavy Imperial units built to pound away at things from afar.

Guardsmen > Marines
Obviously, because cheap always wins

Reapers > Devs
Obviously, because they're more elite

Custodes Captains vs SM Captains
Shining Spears vs SM Bike Squads

I woudn't necessarily agree that cheap almost always wins. Marines are just in a bad spot.

 Trickstick wrote:
It is always going to be hard to deal with mass infantry when armies tend towards bringing as much AT power as possible to deal with knights. How often are plasma guns and lascannons suggested as the best weapons for squads? Doesn't help much against cheap infantry.

Plasma Cannons wind up doing pretty well at both tasks, imo. Multishot S7 AP-3 has the benefit of ignoring armor+cover for Guardsmen and wounding on a 2+. Cheap as dirt now, too.

As Jospeh Stalin would have put it, quantity is a quality of its own.

That's basically the biggest advantage of the Guards right now. That and the fact that orders can make them very versatile and make this otherwise nearly worthless cannon-fodder unit into something that is worth every penny and even more.