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 Marmatag wrote:

catbarf wrote:

Marmatag wrote:At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty.

Must be a grand conspiracy that mono-Guard aren't winning tournaments, then.

Marmatag wrote:No one cares man.

Pot, kettle. Please show us on the doll where the Imperial Guardsman touched you.

"Mono" is the ultimate disingenuous argument.

A faction is good or bad irrespective of whether it's forced to play mono or not. Only 3 factions, Orks, Necrons, and Tau, really are mono faction.

Imperial Guard not winning as a mono faction means nothing, because they have no restriction where they need to be played mono faction. That's like saying "how many games have you won while standing on one foot?" It's irrelevant, because that's just not a metric by which the game is measured. And since you're bringing up tournament data, guard is still far and away the most common army and has bar none the most wins in 8th edition. Oh but wait, some guard players have added an imperial knight to their lists. Therefore, Guard aren't strong? Derp. That's obviously a fallacy, but then we get back to the whole "mono" sideshow.

You might have a point if tournament-winning armies didn't tend to rely on a bare minimum of Guard needed to fill slots as cheaply as possible, and no more.

Are we supposed to believe that the basic Guardsmen is so wtfbroken that a Guard army can auto-win against most lists (your words), but tournament players just haven't caught on? They're so brokenly, shockingly OP that they're taken in minimum quantities?

I can accept that tournament players will build the strongest list they can, and that means soup. But you didn't say 'soup is broken', you said Guard are broken in the most hyperbolic way possible.

Once again, people saying mono guard aren't winning tournaments is absolute selection bias. All competitive IMPERIUM players will make full use of the soup they have access to. Mono guard is bloody strong, it's just there are few people who gimp themselves with it when they have the option to play even stronger lists through soup. BIAS 101 FOR DUMMIES

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Once again, people saying mono guard aren't winning tournaments is absolute selection bias. All competitive IMPERIUM players will make full use of the soup they have access to. Mono guard is bloody strong, it's just there are few people who gimp themselves with it when they have the option to play even stronger lists through soup. BIAS 101 FOR DUMMIES

By the same token, mono-guard over performing doesn't mean Infantry Squads are OP. They are one unit in the book.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Once again, people saying mono guard aren't winning tournaments is absolute selection bias. All competitive IMPERIUM players will make full use of the soup they have access to. Mono guard is bloody strong, it's just there are few people who gimp themselves with it when they have the option to play even stronger lists through soup. BIAS 101 FOR DUMMIES

By the same token, mono-guard over performing doesn't mean Infantry Squads are OP. They are one unit in the book.

I play Orks.. wanna trade your catachan for my Ork boys? I'd take that trade, saying a lot as Ork boys are Hella strong

 Sluggaloo wrote:
I play Orks.. wanna trade your catachan for my Ork boys? I'd take that trade, saying a lot as Ork boys are Hella strong

Catachan is an OP doctrine and Guardsmen should be 5ppm.

Doesn't mean these utterly absurd statements about Guard armies being auto-win are at all reasonable.

catbarf wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
I play Orks.. wanna trade your catachan for my Ork boys? I'd take that trade, saying a lot as Ork boys are Hella strong

Catachan is an OP doctrine and Guardsmen should be 5ppm.

Doesn't mean these utterly absurd statements about Guard armies being auto-win are at all reasonable.

Not saying guard is auto win at all. I'm saying guard would not suffer from having appropriately costed troops at 5ppm

catbarf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

catbarf wrote:

Marmatag wrote:At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty.

Must be a grand conspiracy that mono-Guard aren't winning tournaments, then.

Marmatag wrote:No one cares man.

Pot, kettle. Please show us on the doll where the Imperial Guardsman touched you.

"Mono" is the ultimate disingenuous argument.

A faction is good or bad irrespective of whether it's forced to play mono or not. Only 3 factions, Orks, Necrons, and Tau, really are mono faction.

Imperial Guard not winning as a mono faction means nothing, because they have no restriction where they need to be played mono faction. That's like saying "how many games have you won while standing on one foot?" It's irrelevant, because that's just not a metric by which the game is measured. And since you're bringing up tournament data, guard is still far and away the most common army and has bar none the most wins in 8th edition. Oh but wait, some guard players have added an imperial knight to their lists. Therefore, Guard aren't strong? Derp. That's obviously a fallacy, but then we get back to the whole "mono" sideshow.

You might have a point if tournament-winning armies didn't tend to rely on a bare minimum of Guard needed to fill slots as cheaply as possible, and no more.

Are we supposed to believe that the basic Guardsmen is so wtfbroken that a Guard army can auto-win against most lists (your words), but tournament players just haven't caught on? They're so brokenly, shockingly OP that they're taken in minimum quantities?

I can accept that tournament players will build the strongest list they can, and that means soup. But you didn't say 'soup is broken', you said Guard are broken in the most hyperbolic way possible.

Also from a logical standpoint is Guardsmen=instant win as mamatag states in thread after thread then more guardsmen would=more winning. So not only should you see mono guard winning tournaments you should see massed mono guard infantry spam winning tournaments because "you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard". So it simply amazes me that we have this ultimate plug and play unit that auto wins against any list and players like nick nanavati are simply too dumb to figure it out. I mean look at that guy that clearly knows nothing about tactics or winning choosing to play eldar for the majority of the year. I mean look at all these idiots that spent a few hundred dollars on BA and Knights when they could have won with the far superior guard spam... i mean they clearly already had the guardsmen left over from the conscript nerf

Gw CEO: "Dammit guys! You got it wrong again! Everyone should have an equal chance at winning, this time I'm going to fire you and hire another team!"
Rule writers: "No Sir! Please give us another chance! We'll do better next time!"
Gw CEO: "I can't ignore those puppy eyes! Okay, just one more chance! Although, I have said that 8 times now..."

 Sluggaloo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Once again, people saying mono guard aren't winning tournaments is absolute selection bias. All competitive IMPERIUM players will make full use of the soup they have access to. Mono guard is bloody strong, it's just there are few people who gimp themselves with it when they have the option to play even stronger lists through soup. BIAS 101 FOR DUMMIES

By the same token, mono-guard over performing doesn't mean Infantry Squads are OP. They are one unit in the book.

I play Orks.. wanna trade your catachan for my Ork boys? I'd take that trade, saying a lot as Ork boys are Hella strong

Dunno. Can I use IG Stratagems on them? Orders? If they're in the Ork army do they lose Catachan? Are the Orks still generating CP as part an IG detatchment? Maybe Guard survive in an IG army because attention is being paid to to other things? Maybe Orks get killed in an Ork army because the Orks are themselves are seen as the primary offensive threat? (I haven't played against Orks in a while) There's a lot that could be going on here.

Forgive me for bringing Catachan up, you're right, they should be able to out punch point per point Ork boys.

Doing some quick math...

Straken is 70, a Priest is 35, each squad is 40. Call it three squads getting buffed, so that's 225 points, against 30 Boyz (210 points).

Each squad gets 32 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s.
Priest gets 4(?) attacks, 4s on 5s.
Straken gets 5(?) attacks, 3s on 3s at AP-1.

Gaurdsmen all charge in to the Boyz. 32 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 7 dead.
Boyz interrupt, putting 5 Boyz into the Priest and the remaining 18 into the two squads that have NOT swung, 9on each squad.
20 swings into the Priest nets 13-14 hits, 8-9 wounds, at least 4 failed saves and a dead Priest.
36 swings get 24 hit, 16 wound, and 10-11 dead, for two squads gone.
Straken then swings, getting about 4 hits and 3 wounds, for 3 dead Boyz.
Morale is irrelevant-the only Guard casualties are totally dead and Boyz are leadership 20.

Next turn! Let's put 9 Boyz into the last Guard squad, killing it, and 11 into Straken.
44 attacks.
29-30 hits.
20ish wounds.
Dead Straken.

So, with MORE POINTS of IG, the Boyz win.
This does assume that the Ork player spends two CP to interrupt... But why would you NOT?

Yeah, if you're gonna let 5 Ork Boyz hit your priest that you're bringing along as a force multiplier idk what to say to you hahhahahh

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah, if you're gonna let 5 Ork Boyz hit your priest that you're bringing along as a force multiplier idk what to say to you hahhahahh

Leave the Priest out. Leave Straken out. One squad gets to swing before the other two get obliterated, and then on the Ork's turn, the other squad goes kaput.

Edit: Leave out as in "Leave out of combat" not leave out entirely. They still need to be there to buff Guardsmen.

Make the Catachans a Conclave for a bit more fun.

 Trickstick wrote:
Make the Catachans a Conclave for a bit more fun.

Is that from Vigilus?

What does it do?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Make the Catachans a Conclave for a bit more fun.

Is that from Vigilus?

What does it do?

Several things:

Trait - Reroll 1s to hit within 6" in fight phase.
Relic - Moral thing, plus if bearer dies pick a unit for +1 attack and fearless
Stratagem 2cp - models that die can fight again before death
Stratagem 1cp - +1 charge distance

Some minor stipulations on those, mostly "be near a priest".

the_scotsman wrote:
With the current way that the orders system works, Guardsmen end up looking more like superhuman mega-freaks in game than the supposed "superhumans" depicted in the other factions.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to move twice for free in the movement phase: Lightning-fast eldar and harlequins specialized in close combat, swarms of genestealers commanded by the most notorious tyranid command monster in the whole galaxy, an angel imbued with the emperor's godlike power, and guardsmen. Recently GW made it so the angel couldn't do that anymore because it felt unfair.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to fight twice for free in the fight phase: Crazy bezerk sisters of battle strapped to death walkers, khorne bezerkers dedicated to the god of war and skulls, and guardsmen.

There are a small number of units that can double their shots at will in the shooting phase: Massive Tau mechas bristling with missiles and cannons who fire pneumatic support struts into the ground and brace themselves before unleashing hellfire, space marines in specialized body-encapsulating suits of iron man armor who stand still and unload into oncoming enemy swarms, highly advanced crystal-powered eldar grav tanks, and regular guard tanks and guardsmen.

I understand what they were going for with the orders system, but the current incarnation of the mechanic ends up making other armies and specialist units who make just one of the at-will commands their specific "thing" feel inadequate. In my last game playing my Guard against some Eldar, I was able to effortlessly outpace the fething Eldar in a last-turn objective grab, sending upwards of 40 guard bodies flying across the board 20+" to flood an objective with obsec bodies.

Because its about time they should be, the Imperial Guard are the most dominant army in the universe, whether you like their low tech or relative physical weakness or not. They should be top tier.

 Trickstick wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Make the Catachans a Conclave for a bit more fun.

Is that from Vigilus?

What does it do?

Several things:

Trait - Reroll 1s to hit within 6" in fight phase.
Relic - Moral thing, if bearer dies pick a unit for +1 attack and fearless
Stratagem 2cp - models that die can fight again before death
Stratagem 1cp - +1 charge distance

Some minor stipulations on those, mostly "be near a priest".

Stick those on the priest, I'd imagine. Can it apply to ordinary Guardsmen? The strat, that is. If yes... The math doesn't change a ton. More dead Boyz, not enough to make them lose.

8th edition rules make more wounds more valuable as a result of the AP system changes.

This is part of the reason guard is so good right now. The basic guardsmen gets a 5+ save, which isn't fantastic, but it isn't terrible either, and there are a LOT of guardsmen. Couple that with the fact that anti-infantry weapons generally aren't as efficient as anti-tank weapons and you get the mess we are in. I'm glad horde is good again, because it was absolutely non-viable for like 3 editions, but I'm wondering if the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because its about time they should be, the Imperial Guard are the most dominant army in the universe, whether you like their low tech or relative physical weakness or not. They should be top tier.

I'd shy away from balancing armies based on lore. All armies are supposed to be viable on the tabletop.

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Forgive me for bringing Catachan up, you're right, they should be able to out punch point per point Ork boys.

I don't think catachans should be able to out-melee the equivalent points in ork boyz considering that catachans shoot better... but I sure think that catachans should be able to hold their own against melee units like ork boyz or hormagaunts. Catachan's whole schtick is that they are good in a melee.

Yeah it's both commanders, priests, infantry, conscripts and crusaders are allowed.

w1zard wrote:
8th edition rules make more wounds more valuable as a result of the AP system changes.

This is part of the reason guard is so good right now. The basic guardsmen gets a 5+ save, which isn't fantastic, but it isn't terrible either, and there are a LOT of guardsmen. Couple that with the fact that anti-infantry weapons generally aren't as efficient as anti-tank weapons and you get the mess we are in. I'm glad horde is good again, because it was absolutely non-viable for like 3 editions, but I'm wondering if the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because its about time they should be, the Imperial Guard are the most dominant army in the universe, whether you like their low tech or relative physical weakness or not. They should be top tier.

I'd shy away from balancing armies based on lore. All armies are supposed to be viable on the tabletop.

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Forgive me for bringing Catachan up, you're right, they should be able to out punch point per point Ork boys.

I don't think catachans should be able to out-melee the equivalent points in ork boyz considering that catachans shoot better... but I sure think that catachans should be able to hold their own against melee units like ork boyz or hormagaunts. Catachan's whole schtick is that they are good in a melee.

Eldar have always been OP because of the lore, people shy away from that when its not their own army. If there are going to be tiers then why not try to be realistic lore-wise. I mean I primarily play WE's but lorewise, no army strikes more fear than when Guard, Orks or Tyranids are deployed and Chaos as a black crusade or basically any time since the Indomitus Crusade, but thats only chaos as a whole.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
If there are going to be tiers then why not try to be realistic lore-wise.

Because it's really not that easy to assess faction strength accurately on every level of analysis. The Imperium of Man is able to flood whole systems with huge fleets and billions of replacable bodies. They have the means of eradicating whole planets if that's what they need to do in order to achieve victory. One would think that the Imperium consequently is the strongest military force in the galaxy, but that's only true on a galactic scale, and it doesn't translate to the tabletop at all. Even moving down to planetary scale, which is still much larger than what is played on the tabletop, the military strength of the Imperium becomes a lot less impressive:

A remote human planet might be consumed by an invading Hive fleet without the Imperium even batting an eye because it just takes too long to get the message out there and move assets all the way through the galaxy. Maybe the Planet is not considered to be very valuable and other campaigns have a higher priority at this point in time, so the planet will be left to its own devices. The inhabitants and the local guard garrison will most likely get overrun, because in this very specific instance, the Tyranids are an overwhelming force.

Now, moving down to what is actually happening on the table, a Guard Platoon with a couple of tanks, a Knight and a Flyer is ambushed by a local Genestealer Cult that had been biding its time in order to prepare for the arrival of the hive fleet. In this scenario the GSC probably have a decent chance to win the engagement, because they have planned the encounter and start from a favourable position. They also have observed patrol routes and infiltrated the local command structure, disrupting communications and preventing reinforcements to be called in.

Long story short, on the level the game is played at, each faction has a reasonable shot at beating all other factions lore wise, depending on the circumstances. If this wasn't the case, there would be no point in having a relatively small force of elite soldiers like Space Marines. In the grand scheme of things, they are far too few to make an impact on a galactic scale, but they can and will completely demolish that one enemy stronghold that needs to be taken at a critical juncture of a campaign.

BertBert wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
If there are going to be tiers then why not try to be realistic lore-wise.

Because it's really not that easy to assess faction strength accurately on every level of analysis. The Imperium of Man is able to flood whole systems with huge fleets and billions of replacable bodies. They have the means of eradicating whole planets if that's what they need to do in order to achieve victory. One would think that the Imperium consequently is the strongest military force in the galaxy, but that's only true on a galactic scale, and it doesn't translate to the tabletop at all. Even moving down to planetary scale, which is still much larger than what is played on the tabletop, the military strength of the Imperium becomes a lot less impressive:

A remote human planet might be consumed by an invading Hive fleet without the Imperium even batting an eye because it just takes too long to get the message out there and move assets all the way through the galaxy. Maybe the Planet is not considered to be very valuable and other campaigns have a higher priority at this point in time, so the planet will be left to its own devices. The inhabitants and the local guard garrison will most likely get overrun, because in this very specific instance, the Tyranids are an overwhelming force.

Now, moving down to what is actually happening on the table, a Guard Platoon with a couple of tanks, a Knight and a Flyer is ambushed by a local Genestealer Cult that had been biding its time in order to prepare for the arrival of the hive fleet. In this scenario the GSC probably have a decent chance to win the engagement, because they have planned the encounter and start from a favourable position. They also have observed patrol routes and infiltrated the local command structure, disrupting communications and preventing reinforcements to be called in.

Long story short, on the level the game is played at, each faction has a reasonable shot at beating all other factions lore wise, depending on the circumstances. If this wasn't the case, there would be no point in having a relatively small force of elite soldiers like Space Marines. In the grand scheme of things, they are far too few to make an impact on a galactic scale, but they can and will completely demolish that one enemy stronghold that needs to be taken at a critical juncture of a campaign.

Exterminatus is extremely rare, the Imperium takes worlds with boots on the ground the majority of the time. Guard are only weak infantry wise, their armour is the most devastating in the galaxy because they are cheap to make and very effective, Eldar have high tech weapons but nothing that outstrips the Imperium, The Imperium has weapons that can match the Eldars, they just aren't as efficient. I mean pit an Imperial Titan against an Eldar Titan, the Eldar one may dance about like its a disco but it can just as easily be brought down. And infantry is is mostly the same, all infantry are pretty much a match for one another barring a few cases and then when it comes to elites and heavies ect all armies have ways to combat each. To say that guard are weak because humans are st3 for instance is short-sighted. As for marines, a chapter is the equivalent of an army, marines in the lore are the greatest warriors in the galaxy, on the table top they are incredibly under powered. Guard fight without marines most of the time, its rare for a guard army to ever see a space marine. I mean the Imperial guard are the reason the Imperium dominates the galaxy, they don't do it out of sheer luck.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exterminatus is extremely rare, the Imperium takes worlds with boots on the ground the majority of the time. Guard are only weak infantry wise, their armour is the most devastating in the galaxy because they are cheap to make and very effective, Eldar have high tech weapons but nothing that outstrips the Imperium, The Imperium has weapons that can match the Eldars, they just aren't as efficient. I mean pit an Imperial Titan against an Eldar Titan, the Eldar one may dance about like its a disco but it can just as easily be brought down. And infantry is is mostly the same, all infantry are pretty much a match for one another barring a few cases and then when it comes to elites and heavies ect all armies have ways to combat each. To say that guard are weak because humans are st3 for instance is short-sighted. As for marines, a chapter is the equivalent of an army, marines in the lore are the greatest warriors in the galaxy, on the table top they are incredibly under powered. Guard fight without marines most of the time, its rare for a guard army to ever see a space marine. I mean the Imperial guard are the reason the Imperium dominates the galaxy, they don't do it out of sheer luck.

All of that is entirely true.

It doesn't mean that one army should be stronger than another on the tabletop just because. Otherwise, what point would there be in playing the weaker army?

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exterminatus is extremely rare, the Imperium takes worlds with boots on the ground the majority of the time. Guard are only weak infantry wise, their armour is the most devastating in the galaxy because they are cheap to make and very effective, Eldar have high tech weapons but nothing that outstrips the Imperium, The Imperium has weapons that can match the Eldars, they just aren't as efficient. I mean pit an Imperial Titan against an Eldar Titan, the Eldar one may dance about like its a disco but it can just as easily be brought down. And infantry is is mostly the same, all infantry are pretty much a match for one another barring a few cases and then when it comes to elites and heavies ect all armies have ways to combat each. To say that guard are weak because humans are st3 for instance is short-sighted. As for marines, a chapter is the equivalent of an army, marines in the lore are the greatest warriors in the galaxy, on the table top they are incredibly under powered. Guard fight without marines most of the time, its rare for a guard army to ever see a space marine. I mean the Imperial guard are the reason the Imperium dominates the galaxy, they don't do it out of sheer luck.

All of that is entirely true.

It doesn't mean that one army should be stronger than another on the tabletop just because. Otherwise, what point would there be in playing the weaker army?

Ask a Grey Knights player.

For what it's worth, I definitely agree that all armies should be balanced.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ask a Grey Knights player.

For what it's worth, I definitely agree that all armies should be balanced.

There are winners and losers in every edition because for one reason or another GW cannot balance properly.

This edition the losers are GK, necrons, and SM.

The winners are DE, eldar, and IG.

In 7th edition, IG and DE were basically garbage, and it was SM, eldar, and Tau who were dominating.

All armies should be balanced but you are never going to get that with 40k, we will get a more balanced game in 8th because you have CP's and now everyone's got decent heavy options rather than 7th when there were just wraithknights Imperial knights and stormsurges, but if GW was balanced it would be awful because all armies would be the same and you'd have to get rid of the flavour.

If you'd like to see an interesting viw of what some IG might be like watch the classic Outer limits ep "Soldier", then get ready to name one of your IG characters Quarlo Chlobregny.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Doing some quick math...

Straken is 70, a Priest is 35, each squad is 40. Call it three squads getting buffed, so that's 225 points, against 30 Boyz (210 points).

Each squad gets 32 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s.
Priest gets 4(?) attacks, 4s on 5s.
Straken gets 5(?) attacks, 3s on 3s at AP-1.

Gaurdsmen all charge in to the Boyz. 32 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 7 dead.
Boyz interrupt, putting 5 Boyz into the Priest and the remaining 18 into the two squads that have NOT swung, 9on each squad.
20 swings into the Priest nets 13-14 hits, 8-9 wounds, at least 4 failed saves and a dead Priest.
36 swings get 24 hit, 16 wound, and 10-11 dead, for two squads gone.
Straken then swings, getting about 4 hits and 3 wounds, for 3 dead Boyz.
Morale is irrelevant-the only Guard casualties are totally dead and Boyz are leadership 20.

Next turn! Let's put 9 Boyz into the last Guard squad, killing it, and 11 into Straken.
44 attacks.
29-30 hits.
20ish wounds.
Dead Straken.

So, with MORE POINTS of IG, the Boyz win.
This does assume that the Ork player spends two CP to interrupt... But why would you NOT?

This maths is garbage for a few reasons.
1. The Catachans have forgotten they have guns.
2. No overwatch from Orks?
3. You assume the Orks player has 2 CP to spare/hasn't used the interrupt stratagem already.
4. You've added buffing characters instead of pure Guardsmen which has skewed the numbers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
All armies should be balanced but you are never going to get that with 40k, we will get a more balanced game in 8th because you have CP's and now everyone's got decent heavy options rather than 7th when there were just wraithknights Imperial knights and stormsurges, but if GW was balanced it would be awful because all armies would be the same and you'd have to get rid of the flavour.

Asymmetric balance is possible, it is just very difficult.