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Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
Then you haven't been reading my posts. Don't be a jerk.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
I agree with your definition of spammed. But not in how you're applying it to guard. Taking the literal minimum is bey definition not spam. Them showing up everywhere means they're common.
There should also be a noted difference when talking about Spam and the Imperial Guard. This is an army that, by definition, works through spam. It's built around attrition, the Imperial Guard is all about having *lots* of units. Always has been.
Troops should also be the most common/populous units in an army (in theory). They're what a list *should* rely on. In that regard, this is the first and only edition thus far where the basic Guardsmen has been seen as a good solid unit in and of itself (as opposed to being the minimum filler to take the good stuff or the lesser-known cousins of the more capable Veteran unit which is also no longer a Troop)
So, when talking about Spam and Infantry Squads, there also needs to be some acceptance that we're talking about a unit and an army that should be fielding lots of these units.
And people are still taking the bare minimum of them. Maxing out on Smash captains and Jetbike Lords though. Sometimes both in the same list.
As for what should be the most common, I can see people wanting to make a list that focuses on elites. There should be more of a trade off though to do it.
It is actually really good. He was assassinated by the high lords of Terra because he was too good at conquering stuff, and they were afraid that he was becoming so popular among the masses and so successful in reclaiming worlds for the Imperium that he would have the ability to rebel and crown himself the new emperor. He would never do something like that, but they were afraid of the possibility anyway.
I hope the High Lords will will find the courage to do the same to Guilliman.
Crimson wrote: I hope the High Lords will will find the courage to do the same to Guilliman.
Except Guilliman is not a man, he is a Primarch, and a living embodiment of the Emperor's will. The high lords would no more have him assassinated than they would Celestine. To do so would be Heresy against the emperor himself. Killing an Imperial general who is too good at his job, and justifying it by saying it was for the "stability of the Imperium" (and in some ways being right) is just another day at the office in comparison.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 01:46:53
Gitdakka wrote: I think they should remove orders for AM, that would stop them from doing post super human feats. Just give their officers the same reroll 1s to hit aura that everybody else has and call it a day. A 40-50 pts unit should not perform so extraordinarily.
Orders have been a thing for guard since 5th edition. Taking that away would be a massive nerf to guard. Arguably, some problematic orders like FRFSRF need to be reworked, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I'd be cool with that, same reroll 1's aura everyone else has? Same wording as Rites of Battle but with <Regiment> instead of <Chapter>? Done. I'll take that trade in a heartbeat, no hesitation.
I think most opponents will want me to go back to dealing with Orders after the first game though
And people are still taking the bare minimum of them. Maxing out on Smash captains and Jetbike Lords though. Sometimes both in the same list.
Indeed, it's usually just the 3 or 6.
Actually, the spammiest successful tournament infantry squad list I could find had a total of 8 IS's...and then 3 smash captains and 3 Jetbike captains.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 01:52:06
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Well yes, but I disagree with the sentiment that they fit the setting poorly.
Aren’t the Cain books just offical parodies, essentially, of the 40K setting?
If anything they’re more realistic than a lot of the other fiction written in the 40k world. Most of which takes itself far too seriously. Cain actually seems to mostly show an Imperium that’s actually full of people, rather than the Ludicrously over the top and nonsensically grim dark of most other novels.
Insectum7 wrote: Lol, no. Yarrick was the icon people knew from back in the day. Solar Macharius is a fine character, but Yarrick was more known by players. Macharius didnt get a model until later, like 3rd. I'm not sure he existed prior to that.
In my opinion, Macharius is to the Imperial Guard what the Primarchs are to Space Marines in 40K. They are long dead heroes who pretty much represent the very best they aspire to be, an examplar of perfection that can nver be reached again, but that the very best can get close to. Macharius was a fearless general with a genius for conquest unseen anywhere else. Planets were named after him and he bace a Saint upon his death. Like the Primarchs were in 40K though, he is a footnote, a lore element. The living thing that could be the next Macharius is Sebastian Yarrick.
Which might all be true, making him an icon of the IG in-universe. Playerbase though? For those of us who have been here for a looong time, it's Yarrick by a long shot. A character who was introduced in the early 90's, is the nemesis of Ghazgul Thrakka, featured in many White Dwarf battles, and has had 2 models made, unlike Macharius, who had just the one and it hasn't been on their website for some time now.
Insectum7 wrote: Which might all be true, making him an icon of the IG in-universe. Playerbase though? For those of us who have been here for a looong time, it's Yarrick by a long shot. A character who was introduced in the early 90's, is the nemesis of Ghazgul Thrakka, featured in many White Dwarf battles, and has had 2 models made, unlike Macharius, who had just the one and it hasn't been on their website for some time now.
On that we both agree. Now let's complain about something because it is, after all, the internet.
I think the idea of re-pricing the Guardsmen at 10 pts and then Tactical Space Marines at lets say 22 pts (and then everything else from there) seems like a brilliant idea to me. By keeping games at around 2000-2500 pts we could actually return to a level of point where power armors and toughness 4 are worth a little bit more in relative term and where troops are more sizeable portion of the army.
Insectum7 wrote: Lol, no. Yarrick was the icon people knew from back in the day. Solar Macharius is a fine character, but Yarrick was more known by players. Macharius didnt get a model until later, like 3rd. I'm not sure he existed prior to that.
In my opinion, Macharius is to the Imperial Guard what the Primarchs are to Space Marines in 40K. They are long dead heroes who pretty much represent the very best they aspire to be, an examplar of perfection that can nver be reached again, but that the very best can get close to. Macharius was a fearless general with a genius for conquest unseen anywhere else. Planets were named after him and he bace a Saint upon his death. Like the Primarchs were in 40K though, he is a footnote, a lore element. The living thing that could be the next Macharius is Sebastian Yarrick.
Which might all be true, making him an icon of the IG in-universe. Playerbase though? For those of us who have been here for a looong time, it's Yarrick by a long shot. A character who was introduced in the early 90's, is the nemesis of Ghazgul Thrakka, featured in many White Dwarf battles, and has had 2 models made, unlike Macharius, who had just the one and it hasn't been on their website for some time now.
Not to mention Yarrick is orginal Material. [Even if the Armageddon setting is a copy-paste of World War 2, Specifically the German invasion of the Soviet Union, and if you don't believe me it's noted such in the designers commentary for Battle for Armageddon.] Where was Macharius himself is a copy paste of Alexander the Great, and it'd be awkward if your flagship character was so obviously just a parody.
Macharius was a lame model. Don’t know his story as I didn’t want the model or know anyone with it. Not really iconic... wanted to be, yes. Succeeded, no.
Yarrick was a badass, even more so in his original sculpt. His story was ace and he was very popular in both incarnations of the miniature. Yarrick is FAR more iconic. He landed with Ghazghull Mk I! “Name a more iconic duo” meme, etc.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
argonak wrote: If anything they’re more realistic than a lot of the other fiction written in the 40k world. Most of which takes itself far too seriously. Cain actually seems to mostly show an Imperium that’s actually full of people, rather than the Ludicrously over the top and nonsensically grim dark of most other novels.
Agreed. I read the short-story "Fifteen Hours" and was wondering why the commissar didn't just shoot the inept Imperial Guard General, because you know... that's his job and it was obvious that the General didn't know what the feth he was doing. Stories like "Fifteen Hours" that try to be as grimdark as possible even when it doesn't make any sense, are absurd to the point where they break suspension of disbelief for me. Cain's internal monologues get goofy sometimes, but I find his genuine humanity and humbleness, as well as the far more realistic view of the IOM a refreshing experience compared to the grimdark bolter porn of most SM centered BL novels, which are far more "parodies" in my mind than the Cain novels will ever be.
I'm glad Gulliman is back and injected a bit of hope into the setting. Before Dark Imperium, the 40k setting was stagnating in it's own grimdark juices to the point where it was becoming a parody of itself.
I love the fact that the Cain novels are canon too, so I can tell anyone who doesn't like them to feth off.
On topic: I agree that GW have painted themselves into a corner, with point costs being so low that there is not enough granularity to price things appropriately at the lower points costs. Nevertheless, I think that a total points rework is completely unrealistic for 8th edition. The soonest that would happen would be 9th.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 08:02:51
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Mmmpi I'm not going to quote your repeated posts to me. Why you've split them up and not responded to me in one post makes no sense and is really irritating to respond to.
My source is BCP mate.
Let's debunk a few logical fallacies I've seen flying around in this thread.
1.Imperial soup lists don't need to take ANY Guardsmen for their lists to function. If they're desperate for Guard units they could take a Spearhead or Vanguard detachment. If they're desperate for CP they could fill the troop and HQ slots with choices from any other Imperium codex.
2. As my point above is true (read this a few times over, let it sink in) the minimum amount of Guardsmen units any Imperial soup list can take is zero.
3. Imperial soup players are taking more than the minimum number of Guardsmen to fill detachments. There are lists with anything from 70 to 90 Guardsmen that are not taken to add CP or for any other function than to get more Guardsmen in the list. So let's not pretend otherwise.
4. No one is talking about spam in the contest of Imperial Guard. We're talking about spam in the context of Imperial soup. Regardless the point is the same, if I play an IG player with 15 Leman Russes I think it's fair to say he has spammed them. Or if he has a ton of mortars (a common sight in Imperial soup lists) they have been spammed. IG don't get special exceptions because you think they should.
5. There isn't some grand scheme to destroy Guard. The suggestions for these changes aren't because people want Guard to be awful or they hate seeing Guardsmen kill Marines or any other stupid reason you invent. Its because Guardsmen are mathematically and evidently the best troop in the game at 4ppm as they are now. They are the most populous troop taken in competitive lists and they are an outlier in terms of effectiveness on the battlefield (their combined durability and output point for point exceeds any other unit by quite a margin).
6. If units were fairly balanced against each other across different factions soup wouldn't be an issue at all.
7. These changes are suggested to help balance the game and make the game better.
As an aside, can't you see that the reason Conscripts are so unattractive is because they cost the same as Guardsmen but are literally worse units? They haven't been 'nerfed into uselessness', the problem is that Guardsmen are way too cheap and compete in the same slot. Conscripts would be taken in other armies if they had access to them. Also if you think its wrong that Conscripts and Guardsmen cost the same points while one is obviously a worse unit than the other, how do you defend all those 4ppm/5ppm units that are evidently worse than Guardsmen like the aforementioned Gants?
Guardsmen are the best troop in the game at 4 ppm : yes, but how is that a problem, and if that is indeed a problem, why should it be resolved by nerfing guardsmen ? Imo, having a good troop choice with important tactical role should be a good thing for most armies.
WhiteDog wrote: Guardsmen are the best troop in the game at 4 ppm : yes, but how is that a problem, and if that is indeed a problem, why should it be resolved by nerfing guardsmen ? Imo, having a good troop choice with important tactical role should be a good thing for most armies.
Well you have two options if one troop far exceeds the abilities of other troops - you either buff every other troop or nerf the singular offender. Given the Guardsmen outperform many elite choices across different factions too and the fact that Cultists recently went up to 5ppm, I think the resolution is obvious.
I did it so you could see specifically which point I was addressing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Mmmpi I'm not going to quote your repeated posts to me. Why you've split them up and not responded to me in one post makes no sense and is really irritating to respond to.
My source is BCP mate.
Could you clarify please? I couldn't find anything but banks in a quick five minute google search for BCP. Seriously, please clarify.
Let's debunk a few logical fallacies I've seen flying around in this thread.
1.Imperial soup lists don't need to take ANY Guardsmen for their lists to function. If they're desperate for Guard units they could take a Spearhead or Vanguard detachment. If they're desperate for CP they could fill the troop and HQ slots with choices from any other Imperium codex.
I don't see you mentioning any of your posts here. What are you trying to debunk?
1. True, but that's outside the point of discussing guardsman use. I also addressed that. Please tell me, outside of new sisters, which army can get you 5 CP for 180 points. I'll wait.
2. As my point above is true (read this a few times over, let it sink in) the minimum amount of Guardsmen units any Imperial soup list can take is zero.
Why? I've already read it every time you posted it. We're discussing the use of guardsmen, so going with that line of thinking makes the conversation moot. Aside from the fact that there are no imperial soup lists that don't take 3 squads.
3. Imperial soup players are taking more than the minimum number of Guardsmen to fill detachments. There are lists with anything from 70 to 90 Guardsmen that are not taken to add CP or for any other function than to get more Guardsmen in the list. So let's not pretend otherwise.
No, imperial soup players are only taking the minimum number of squads with one exception. And they're not taking multiple guard detachments, even when guard is the main force in the army. While there are lists (one) with more than 6 guard squads, that's no where near the majority. Others have pointed this out to you too.
4. No one is talking about spam in the contest of Imperial Guard. We're talking about spam in the context of Imperial soup. Regardless the point is the same, if I play an IG player with 15 Leman Russes I think it's fair to say he has spammed them. Or if he has a ton of mortars (a common sight in Imperial soup lists) they have been spammed. IG don't get special exceptions because you think they should.
Yes. Which is confusing, because you seem to think the bare minimum is spam. If you take a guard detachment, you have to take guard. Guard infantry squads are the cheapest troop. People are taking three of them. Unless they're maining guard, in which case they use a brigade and take six. Those are the bare minimums for battalions and brigades respectively. Almost no one in competative is going over that. And yes, 15 leman russ are spam. But 15 russ aren't the bare minimum in a guard detachment. If large numbers of people were taking 9+ guard squads you'd have a point, but if that were the case we wouldn't be having this argument because I'd be agreeing with you. As for mortars, yeah. They're common because they're dirt cheap. People who take the max number are taking 30. 27 in heavy support, and 3 in their three infantry squads. So, no I'm not giving guard an exception, because their's nothing to except them from.
5. There isn't some grand scheme to destroy Guard. The suggestions for these changes aren't because people want Guard to be awful or they hate seeing Guardsmen kill Marines or any other stupid reason you invent. Its because Guardsmen are mathematically and evidently the best troop in the game at 4ppm as they are now. They are the most populous troop taken in competitive lists and they are an outlier in terms of effectiveness on the battlefield (their combined durability and output point for point exceeds any other unit by quite a margin).
Never said there was, but I'll not you're not seeing many guard or xenos players complaining. Just butthurt space marine players. As for points, I never mentioned them, and that's not the topic of this thread. Guard are only as durable as they are because everyone is maxing out on AT to fight Superheavies, Magnus, and Knights. Space marines still out kill them with small arms. And the only reason you see them in lists at all is because they're cheap. Taking them gives you the bare minimum points outlay for CP to fuel a knight or a smash captain or three. If conscripts were cheaper per unit (even at 3pts there weren't cheaper, 40 is still less than 60), people would be using them instead.
6. If units were fairly balanced against each other across different factions soup wouldn't be an issue at all.
That is too big a topic for tonight, considering that's half of dakka's 40K threads. Yes, I'm being sarcastic about the half part.
7. These changes are suggested to help balance the game and make the game better.
Too bad they all suck. Find the strengths of your army, and let guard keep their iconic ability.
As an aside, can't you see that the reason Conscripts are so unattractive is because they cost the same as Guardsmen but are literally worse units? They haven't been 'nerfed into uselessness', the problem is that Guardsmen are way too cheap and compete in the same slot. Conscripts would be taken in other armies if they had access to them. Also if you think its wrong that Conscripts and Guardsmen cost the same points while one is obviously a worse unit than the other, how do you defend all those 4ppm/5ppm units that are evidently worse than Guardsmen like the aforementioned Gants?
No, if conscripts didn't have the order nerf people would still be using them. What's a better use of buffs? 10 guys, or 50 guys? The increase in points didn't kill conscripts, having orders fail on them half the time did. When IG first came out, the only troop taken (yes, most of the time, not all... ) was conscripts. Once it became hit or miss to buff them, people stopped using them. Guard never stepped up into that role. They're just cheap meatshields, and source of CP. Conscripts were killing things (when buffed). If conscripts could get buffed by orders, you'd see them everywhere again.
As for gaunts, people who know more about them (I haven't played against tyrannids since 6th first dropped) have already addressed your concerns with them.
WhiteDog wrote: Guardsmen are the best troop in the game at 4 ppm : yes, but how is that a problem, and if that is indeed a problem, why should it be resolved by nerfing guardsmen ? Imo, having a good troop choice with important tactical role should be a good thing for most armies.
Well you have two options if one troop far exceeds the abilities of other troops - you either buff every other troop or nerf the singular offender. Given the Guardsmen outperform many elite choices across different factions too and the fact that Cultists recently went up to 5ppm, I think the resolution is obvious.
Except that guard don't 'vastly outperform' most elite choices. Or even most troop choices. They just cost less when they die. Cultists, don't forget get full access to Chaos auras and psychic powers. Guard don't get them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 12:10:47
Mmmpi wrote: I did it so you could see specifically which point I was addressing.
It didn't help I'm afraid and I can work out what point you're responding to on my own without you breaking the quotation up into little bits over multiple posts. But as you are insistent we'll do it your way.
Could you clarify please? I couldn't find anything but banks in a quick five minute google search for BCP. Seriously, please clarify.
Jesus. You don't know what BCP is?
I don't see you mentioning any of your posts here. What are you trying to debunk?
Literally answered in my points 1-7.
1. True, but that's outside the point of discussing guardsman use. I also addressed that. Please tell me, outside of new sisters, which army can get you 5 CP for 180 points. I'll wait.
So players that have the option of taking over half the troop choices in the game deciding to take Guardsmen has no bearing on a discussion around Guardsman use? What? You haven't addressed it. In fact you seem to think it has no bearing on this discussion, for some incredible reason I can't fathom.
With regards 5 CP for 180 points you've kinda proven my point. Doesn't it seem stupid that some factions are able to generate CP for so little points investment while others can't? Increasing the cost of Guardsmen helps with this.
Why? I've already read it every time you posted it. We're discussing the use of guardsmen, so going with that line of thinking makes the conversation moot. Aside from the fact that there are no imperial soup lists that don't take 3 squads.
We're discussing "why are Guardsmen so awesome in game" actually. So you admit that you found no Imperial soup lists that don't take at least 30 Guardsmen (I don't believe this is accurate by the way)? Regardless, what does that tell you about the balance of Guardsmen relative to every other troop choice Imperial soup has access to?
Let's say it another way to (maybe) make it clearer. Imagine (was reality not so long ago) that every single competitive Chaos list ever from now on contained Brimstone Horrors. They all took them without fail. What would you think about Brimstone Horrors in relation to their performance against other troops that a Chaos soup list has access to? Imagine that they became so ingrained into the meta that they had a specific, unique name to describe a certain configuration of their units, the "Brimstone Bundle". Every Chaos player was taking the Brimstone Bundle. Surely it would cross your mind that perhaps Brimstones needed to be looked at since they are omnipresent in Chaos lists and have become such a staple that it is far rarer not to see them in a list?
No, imperial soup players are only taking the minimum number of squads with one exception. And they're not taking multiple guard detachments, even when guard is the main force in the army. While there are lists (one) with more than 6 guard squads, that's no where near the majority. Others have pointed this out to you too.
You and others are wrong and I've told you this a few times now. As you don't know what BCP is I'm not surprised. Your data is lacking. You're not going to see multiple Guard detachments outside of a mono Guard list so that's irrelevant really.
Yes. Which is confusing, because you seem to think the bare minimum is spam. If you take a guard detachment, you have to take guard. Guard infantry squads are the cheapest troop. People are taking three of them. Unless they're maining guard, in which case they use a brigade and take six. Those are the bare minimums for battalions and brigades respectively. Almost no one in competative is going over that. And yes, 15 leman russ are spam. But 15 russ aren't the bare minimum in a guard detachment. If large numbers of people were taking 9+ guard squads you'd have a point, but if that were the case we wouldn't be having this argument because I'd be agreeing with you. As for mortars, yeah. They're common because they're dirt cheap. People who take the max number are taking 30. 27 in heavy support, and 3 in their three infantry squads. So, no I'm not giving guard an exception, because their's nothing to except them from.
This frustrates me because earlier you agreed that the MINIMUM GUARD UNITS THAT AN IMPERIAL SOUP PLAYER CAN TAKE IS ACTUALLY ZERO. They don't have to take a guard detachment. They are choosing to take one for multiple reasons. One is that Guardsmen are too cheap. Another is that Guardsmen are too efficient. As above, there are lists that take 9 Guard squads. There are lists that take more than the minimum. Also note that Imperial Soup players ARE CHOOSING TO 'MAIN' GUARD. Which means they are making a conscious decision to take the majority of their 2000 point lists as a Guard army. These same players have the option to pick from any Imperial codex. They could go Deathwatch, Grey Knights, IK, Space Marines Custodes or any other Imperial codex as their 'main' but they are choosing to go Guard. This isn't an enforced thing. They aren't taking the "minimum". They are actively deciding to make Guard their primary because they feel that Guard units are the most competitive. Does that make sense?
Never said there was, but I'll not you're not seeing many guard or xenos players complaining. Just butthurt space marine players. As for points, I never mentioned them, and that's not the topic of this thread. Guard are only as durable as they are because everyone is maxing out on AT to fight Superheavies, Magnus, and Knights. Space marines still out kill them with small arms. And the only reason you see them in lists at all is because they're cheap. Taking them gives you the bare minimum points outlay for CP to fuel a knight or a smash captain or three. If conscripts were cheaper per unit (even at 3pts there weren't cheaper, 40 is still less than 60), people would be using them instead.
I don't have a single Space Marine force and I'm complaining so it's not just "butthurt" SM players and I got to be honest that's a really stupid thing to say. Points are absolutely relevant to the thread of "Why are Guardsmen so awesome in game?". They are the primary factor, no less. You don't seem to understand my reasoning either. Guard are more durable on a point for point basis than any other troop in the game. Take 100 pts of Guard and compare them to 100 pts of another faction's troops, Guard outlive them against any weapons. Both at 4ppm and 5ppm by the way. Their damage output is also higher on a point for point basis, generally speaking.
6. If units were fairly balanced against each other across different factions soup wouldn't be an issue at all.
That is too big a topic for tonight, considering that's half of dakka's 40K threads. Yes, I'm being sarcastic about the half part.
Yes but you seem to fail to grasp that if Imperial Guardsmen weren't the most attractive troop choice to all Imperial players they wouldn't be seen in so many lists. You seem to be missing the fact that their attractiveness comes from a variety of reasons, cost and performance per point being the primary drivers.
Too bad they all suck. Find the strengths of your army, and let guard keep their iconic ability.
I didn't realise it was an "iconic ability" to have extra stratagems on the most cost effective troop in the game.
No, if conscripts didn't have the order nerf people would still be using them. What's a better use of buffs? 10 guys, or 50 guys? The increase in points didn't kill conscripts, having orders fail on them half the time did. When IG first came out, the only troop taken (yes, most of the time, not all... ) was conscripts. Once it became hit or miss to buff them, people stopped using them. Guard never stepped up into that role. They're just cheap meatshields, and source of CP. Conscripts were killing things (when buffed). If conscripts could get buffed by orders, you'd see them everywhere again.
As for gaunts, people who know more about them (I haven't played against tyrannids since 6th first dropped) have already addressed your concerns with them.
So orders aren't very valuable but making them not work on Conscripts all the time 'killed' them? Right.
No one has addressed the issue around comparing Gaunts and Guardsmen. They keep citing "but you're fearless lolol" (when a 10 man squad of Guardsmen realistically never lose any units to morale, while ignoring the cost of the synapse creature) and "but they can have cool traits like 6+++" (when S4 Guardsmen exist for 4ppm, lol). They make excuses to justify a Guardsman's incredibly (and wrongly) pointed value.
Except that guard don't 'vastly outperform' most elite choices. Or even most troop choices. They just cost less when they die. Cultists, don't forget get full access to Chaos auras and psychic powers. Guard don't get them.
Except they do. Do your maths and compare a Guardsmen against any troop in the game that you think is of comparable value. You'll be surprised to see the per point difference I think. As someone who doesn't play Chaos I believe that there is absolutely no way to justify a difference in cost between a Cultist and a Guardsman. Cultists don't get orders. Guard have psychic powers. Guard have auras.
Also, as you just yourself said, new sisters do a battalion for less.
People do not take guardsmen battalions only for CP, imperial soup has cheaper options for CP farming.
They take guardsman battalions because guardsmen paired with 2 CCs outperform any other detachment at that point level to an absurd degree because of their flexibility with orders.
Those skitarii rangers can't do anything REMOTELY like pumping out 40 shots from a 40 point squad, or booking it 19" across the table to obsec swarm an objective. Every other cheap as chips filler battalion in the game can do little more than stand around and die. Guardsmen with a tournament vet playing them win people games, regularly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 12:58:46
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Could you clarify please? I couldn't find anything but banks in a quick five minute google search for BCP. Seriously, please clarify.
Its the Best Coast Pairings App. It does a variety of things for tournament organisers, and as a result it tracks gaming events (including most significant 40k tournaments) across the world. It then records results. The free version is a bit meh ("Player 1: Faction name, X Wins, Y points etc, Player 2: Faction name, K Wins...). If you subscribe however you gain access to all the rosters in events recorded on the BCP database.
This means you can identify which lists are doing well, and that yes, imperial brigades regularly place.
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In another thread, I've read a thoughtful post on the fact that armies used to have particular identities and that nowadays it is not the case. Imo having cheap and efficient mass supported by tanks is the identity of the imperial guard. The problem is rather that other armies (SM specifically) do not have the tools to deal with that efficiently. The amount of firepower an intercessor troop can deal is very weak in regards to its price, and the nerf of flamers made those troops even more efficient. It's not just guardsmen tbh, poxwalkers are very efficient and mass poxwalkers armies pretty durable with the right support. At least that's my own limited experience. Elite armies should be elite and should have tools to face populus armies as their troop choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 13:12:02
FWIW - because Admech was the thing I had my battlescribe opened to, I ran a quick durability calculation. 90 points of Kataphron Breachers actually do outlive guardsmen against any weapon until you get into Overcharged Plasma territory, when the multiwound and toughness max favors the guardsmen for obvious reasons.
Other elite troops like custodes, intercessors etc outperform guardsmen versus small arms, and then you've got troops like brims that will solidly outperform guardsmen against anything that has AP, again for pretty obvious reasons.
The statement that Guardsmen are more durable against anything than any other troop for the points is patently false. But they're pretty unusually durable for the points considering that most other comparable infantry either has drastically worse defenses (grots, gaunts) or costs a large percentage more (guardians, kabalites, fire warriors etc). Or both. And none of them even come even in the neighborhood of the ridiculous flexibility afforded to guard by orders.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Mmmpi wrote: I did it so you could see specifically which point I was addressing.
It didn't help I'm afraid and I can work out what point you're responding to on my own without you breaking the quotation up into little bits over multiple posts. But as you are insistent we'll do it your way.
Could you clarify please? I couldn't find anything but banks in a quick five minute google search for BCP. Seriously, please clarify.
Jesus. You don't know what BCP is?
Nope, should I have?
I don't see you mentioning any of your posts here. What are you trying to debunk?
Literally answered in my points 1-7.
Except you didn't. Sorry try again.
1. True, but that's outside the point of discussing guardsman use. I also addressed that. Please tell me, outside of new sisters, which army can get you 5 CP for 180 points. I'll wait.
So players that have the option of taking over half the troop choices in the game deciding to take Guardsmen has no bearing on a discussion around Guardsman use? What? You haven't addressed it. In fact you seem to think it has no bearing on this discussion, for some incredible reason I can't fathom.
With regards 5 CP for 180 points you've kinda proven my point. Doesn't it seem stupid that some factions are able to generate CP for so little points investment while others can't? Increasing the cost of Guardsmen helps with this.
Yes. Because we're not talking about other troops. We're talking about guardsmen. A ubiquitous choice, but not taken in more than them minimum when they are taken.
Why? I've already read it every time you posted it. We're discussing the use of guardsmen, so going with that line of thinking makes the conversation moot. Aside from the fact that there are no imperial soup lists that don't take 3 squads.
We're discussing "why are Guardsmen so awesome in game" actually. So you admit that you found no Imperial soup lists that don't take at least 30 Guardsmen (I don't believe this is accurate by the way)? Regardless, what does that tell you about the balance of Guardsmen relative to every other troop choice Imperial soup has access to?
Let's say it another way to (maybe) make it clearer. Imagine (was reality not so long ago) that every single competitive Chaos list ever from now on contained Brimstone Horrors. They all took them without fail. What would you think about Brimstone Horrors in relation to their performance against other troops that a Chaos soup list has access to? Imagine that they became so ingrained into the meta that they had a specific, unique name to describe a certain configuration of their units, the "Brimstone Bundle". Every Chaos player was taking the Brimstone Bundle. Surely it would cross your mind that perhaps Brimstones needed to be looked at since they are omnipresent in Chaos lists and have become such a staple that it is far rarer not to see them in a list?
I understood that people took them because they were cheap. Not because they were particularly good.
No, imperial soup players are only taking the minimum number of squads with one exception. And they're not taking multiple guard detachments, even when guard is the main force in the army. While there are lists (one) with more than 6 guard squads, that's no where near the majority. Others have pointed this out to you too.
You and others are wrong and I've told you this a few times now. As you don't know what BCP is I'm not surprised. Your data is lacking. You're not going to see multiple Guard detachments outside of a mono Guard list so that's irrelevant really.
I haven't seen multiple guard detachments in a mono-guard list either. At least none, that used guardsmen. Maybe a spearhead, but that's about it.
Yes. Which is confusing, because you seem to think the bare minimum is spam. If you take a guard detachment, you have to take guard. Guard infantry squads are the cheapest troop. People are taking three of them. Unless they're maining guard, in which case they use a brigade and take six. Those are the bare minimums for battalions and brigades respectively. Almost no one in competative is going over that. And yes, 15 leman russ are spam. But 15 russ aren't the bare minimum in a guard detachment. If large numbers of people were taking 9+ guard squads you'd have a point, but if that were the case we wouldn't be having this argument because I'd be agreeing with you. As for mortars, yeah. They're common because they're dirt cheap. People who take the max number are taking 30. 27 in heavy support, and 3 in their three infantry squads. So, no I'm not giving guard an exception, because their's nothing to except them from.
This frustrates me because earlier you agreed that the MINIMUM GUARD UNITS THAT AN IMPERIAL SOUP PLAYER CAN TAKE IS ACTUALLY ZERO. They don't have to take a guard detachment. They are choosing to take one for multiple reasons. One is that Guardsmen are too cheap. Another is that Guardsmen are too efficient. As above, there are lists that take 9 Guard squads. There are lists that take more than the minimum. Also note that Imperial Soup players ARE CHOOSING TO 'MAIN' GUARD. Which means they are making a conscious decision to take the majority of their 2000 point lists as a Guard army. These same players have the option to pick from any Imperial codex. They could go Deathwatch, Grey Knights, IK, Space Marines Custodes or any other Imperial codex as their 'main' but they are choosing to go Guard. This isn't an enforced thing. They aren't taking the "minimum". They are actively deciding to make Guard their primary because they feel that Guard units are the most competitive. Does that make sense?
Yes 0. But we're talking about when they are taken. Start a new thread if you want about using scouts instead.
There are. At casual tables. Post your sources that say competitive players are taking more than 6 squads.
Never said there was, but I'll not you're not seeing many guard or xenos players complaining. Just butthurt space marine players. As for points, I never mentioned them, and that's not the topic of this thread. Guard are only as durable as they are because everyone is maxing out on AT to fight Superheavies, Magnus, and Knights. Space marines still out kill them with small arms. And the only reason you see them in lists at all is because they're cheap. Taking them gives you the bare minimum points outlay for CP to fuel a knight or a smash captain or three. If conscripts were cheaper per unit (even at 3pts there weren't cheaper, 40 is still less than 60), people would be using them instead.
I don't have a single Space Marine force and I'm complaining so it's not just "butthurt" SM players and I got to be honest that's a really stupid thing to say. Points are absolutely relevant to the thread of "Why are Guardsmen so awesome in game?". They are the primary factor, no less. You don't seem to understand my reasoning either. Guard are more durable on a point for point basis than any other troop in the game. Take 100 pts of Guard and compare them to 100 pts of another faction's troops, Guard outlive them against any weapons. Both at 4ppm and 5ppm by the way. Their damage output is also higher on a point for point basis, generally speaking.
I already said I don't necessarily disagree with you on points. And I have made the comparison. It's usually within a standard deviation. And yes. For both.
6. If units were fairly balanced against each other across different factions soup wouldn't be an issue at all.
That is too big a topic for tonight, considering that's half of dakka's 40K threads. Yes, I'm being sarcastic about the half part.
Yes but you seem to fail to grasp that if Imperial Guardsmen weren't the most attractive troop choice to all Imperial players they wouldn't be seen in so many lists. You seem to be missing the fact that their attractiveness comes from a variety of reasons, cost and performance per point being the primary drivers.
Cost is about it. Wounds per point. The fact that they don't suck at everything else is another factor.
Too bad they all suck. Find the strengths of your army, and let guard keep their iconic ability.
I didn't realise it was an "iconic ability" to have extra stratagems on the most cost effective troop in the game.
Let me know when guard are getting extra stratagems. I just see orders that replace most of the auras other armies get.
No, if conscripts didn't have the order nerf people would still be using them. What's a better use of buffs? 10 guys, or 50 guys? The increase in points didn't kill conscripts, having orders fail on them half the time did. When IG first came out, the only troop taken (yes, most of the time, not all... ) was conscripts. Once it became hit or miss to buff them, people stopped using them. Guard never stepped up into that role. They're just cheap meatshields, and source of CP. Conscripts were killing things (when buffed). If conscripts could get buffed by orders, you'd see them everywhere again.
As for gaunts, people who know more about them (I haven't played against tyrannids since 6th first dropped) have already addressed your concerns with them.
So orders aren't very valuable but making them not work on Conscripts all the time 'killed' them? Right.
No one has addressed the issue around comparing Gaunts and Guardsmen. They keep citing "but you're fearless lolol" (when a 10 man squad of Guardsmen realistically never lose any units to morale, while ignoring the cost of the synapse creature) and "but they can have cool traits like 6+++" (when S4 Guardsmen exist for 4ppm, lol). They make excuses to justify a Guardsman's incredibly (and wrongly) pointed value.
No, guard usually just die before moral comes into it. Guard also don't come in easy to buff groups of 30.
Except that guard don't 'vastly outperform' most elite choices. Or even most troop choices. They just cost less when they die. Cultists, don't forget get full access to Chaos auras and psychic powers. Guard don't get them.
Except they do. Do your maths and compare a Guardsmen against any troop in the game that you think is of comparable value. You'll be surprised to see the per point difference I think. As someone who doesn't play Chaos I believe that there is absolutely no way to justify a difference in cost between a Cultist and a Guardsman. Cultists don't get orders. Guard have psychic powers. Guard have auras.
I've done it. The only one they out perform are marines, and only in how much you lose when they die, compared to marines. Cultists get auras that improve their performance. They get powers that improve their performance. Cultists come in squads of up to 40. Guard powers protect ten guys. Guard orders buff ten guys and outside of other abilities don't stack the way auras do. Guard auras buff leadership, but we already established that they die before it becomes an issue.
Also, as you just yourself said, new sisters do a battalion for less.
People do not take guardsmen battalions only for CP, imperial soup has cheaper options for CP farming.
They take guardsman battalions because guardsmen paired with 2 CCs outperform any other detachment at that point level to an absurd degree because of their flexibility with orders.
Those skitarii rangers can't do anything REMOTELY like pumping out 40 shots from a 40 point squad, or booking it 19" across the table to obsec swarm an objective. Every other cheap as chips filler battalion in the game can do little more than stand around and die. Guardsmen with a tournament vet playing them win people games, regularly.
Forgot about Admech. Sisters Faithful 17 still costs 215 points. Yup. 40 shots at str3, if you take the squads naked. And 30 guard aren't a swarm. Particularly if they didn't do anything on the turn they did their 'swarming'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WhiteDog wrote: In another thread, I've read a thoughtful post on the fact that armies used to have particular identities and that nowadays it is not the case.
Imo having cheap and efficient mass supported by tanks is the identity of the imperial guard. The problem is rather that other armies (SM specifically) do not have the tools to deal with that efficiently. The amount of firepower an intercessor troop can deal is very weak in regards to its price, and the nerf of flamers made those troops even more efficient.
It's not just guardsmen tbh, poxwalkers are very efficient and mass poxwalkers armies pretty durable with the right support. At least that's my own limited experience. Elite armies should be elite and should have tools to face populus armies as their troop choice.
They do have the tools, but no one is taking them, because everyone has to deal with knights ect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 13:21:55
Not really, it's a pretty niche acronym to just throw out there. It's not like people should be shocked that others don't know about specific tournament support apps.
) was conscripts. Once it became hit or miss to buff them, people stopped using them. Guard never stepped up into that role. They're just cheap meatshields, and source of