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JNAProductions wrote: Such quantities being the minimum for your detachment, usually a battalion, with one example of people taking more than that?
You’ll notice most troops are taken in their minimum quantities for the detachment but as I’ve said, repeatedly in this thread, there are many more examples of more than the minimum number of Guardsmen to fulfil the detachment being taken and they feature in almost every competitive Imperium list. The minimum number of Guardsmen a soup list can take is 0 by the way. They could take another troop of another faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 23:49:58
In the lists I've seen, most include an IG Battalion (3 squads), a decent minority have a Brigade (6 squads) and one had two extra squads (8 total).
Because, yes, there's a reason you see IG in Soup lists. They're a good combination of giving cheap CP, board presence, and a decent amount of shooting. While other battalions can be slightly cheaper or barely more expensive, they have less synergy or board presence. But Infantry Squads themselves are not spammed.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
In the lists I've seen, most include an IG Battalion (3 squads), a decent minority have a Brigade (6 squads) and one had two extra squads (8 total).
Because, yes, there's a reason you see IG in Soup lists. They're a good combination of giving cheap CP, board presence, and a decent amount of shooting. While other battalions can be slightly cheaper or barely more expensive, they have less synergy or board presence. But Infantry Squads themselves are not spammed.
Several of those lists went above the minimum. What are you talking about?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Spoletta wrote: We are pointing our guns at the wrong target, leave the grunts alone and look at ultra cheap HQs, the problem is there.
That's a fair point. This thread was originally about how the orders make the guardsmen perform patently superhuman feats. Perhaps nerfing the orders would be a good solution from both the balance and fluff perspective.
I proffer a new idea. Perhaps officers have to pay for orders.
We already have an example with the Tempestor Prime.
Perhaps an officer gets one order base (being an infantry officer, after all), and add 5 as an upgrade.
CCs could have a maximum of of two, so paying 5 points like the Tempestor Prime.
Platoon Commanders stay the same and get played more?
Yes, let's follow the example of one of the most maligned HQs in the Guard book!
No. Tempestor Primes are stupidly done and thinking that it is somehow a solution is just ridiculous. Remember that Tempestor Primes are ONLY able to affect Militarum Tempestus units like Officers are ONLY able to affect <Regiment> Infantry. There's a reason why the TP kinda/sorta works and it's that there's three units total with MT tags(one of which is the TP himself).
Platoon Commanders are a whole different kettle of fish and remember this simple fact:
They are not HQs.
Pretending that they need help to "get played more" is patently ridiculous when you consider the circumstances surrounding them. They're an Elite choice, not an HQ choice. People tend to pack the Elites with the Priests when we're talking about the normal soupy crap.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone arguing that allies is the issue seems to have forgotten the last two editions where theoretically your Tyranid army could've ran Scatterbikes if it wanted. In my Necron army, I could run a Tyranid detachment with 3 Flyrants with little recourse.
Armies being able to ally in Scatterbikes and Flyrants didn't lead to them being broken. They were already broken by themselves due to how they were designed. CP is merely attached to a few special moments here and there, just like formations were in the past.
In this instance, the two units largely already did the same thing, put out lots of mobile S6 shooting, and didn't really synergize, and had deployment and proximity restrictions. You wouldn't ever really run those together. Not every mismatch is a powercombo.
That said, we saw plenty of issues with allies in the previous edition with shennanigans like Skitarii in Drop Pods, BS/SW/DA superfriends deathstar lists, 6E Taudar ridiculousness, etc.
Allies have been a constant source of problems since their 6E reintroduction.
So what synergy is offered with allied Guard outside the CP for 8th?
The CP's are a huge one thay can't be discounted. Being able to pull in an extra 8-10 CP between the 32 themselves and thr CP regen they can bring, thats often enough right there in and of itself.
However one of the other big things is board control and numbers. These are powerful abilities for armies like Knights and Custodes and Smashcaptain lists that otherwise would often lack the ability to play objectives while they simultaneously smash the bejeesus out of everything and refuse to die, or would lack screeners that would enable many other opponents to more effectively get to grips. That's been no secret. Likewise, it enables access to things like psyker support that some armies dont inherently already have, or cheaper psyker options that do nothing else but that.
We can see this in non-IG related examples as well. DE don't natively have access to Doom but get made way stronger when allied with CWE (often just for Doom).
However, that's something the Infantry offer on their own merit though, and that's all your listing. Even if you included the clause from Come The apocalypse for allies like last edition they would still be taken. On their own merits.
All the ally problems you listed were due to unit, transport, and HQ interactions. There is zero of that now and just purely the allying is happening. Even if CP wasn't shared, the Infantry would still be taken for that strength.
It's just easy enough to get the CP you do it. If Knights only had access to using a Patrol for allies, the Infantry would still be taken for their merit.
Spoletta wrote: We are pointing our guns at the wrong target, leave the grunts alone and look at ultra cheap HQs, the problem is there.
That's a fair point. This thread was originally about how the orders make the guardsmen perform patently superhuman feats. Perhaps nerfing the orders would be a good solution from both the balance and fluff perspective.
I proffer a new idea. Perhaps officers have to pay for orders.
We already have an example with the Tempestor Prime.
Perhaps an officer gets one order base (being an infantry officer, after all), and add 5 as an upgrade.
CCs could have a maximum of of two, so paying 5 points like the Tempestor Prime.
Platoon Commanders stay the same and get played more?
Yes, let's follow the example of one of the most maligned HQs in the Guard book!
No. Tempestor Primes are stupidly done and thinking that it is somehow a solution is just ridiculous. Remember that Tempestor Primes are ONLY able to affect Militarum Tempestus units like Officers are ONLY able to affect <Regiment> Infantry. There's a reason why the TP kinda/sorta works and it's that there's three units total with MT tags(one of which is the TP himself).
Platoon Commanders are a whole different kettle of fish and remember this simple fact:
They are not HQs.
Pretending that they need help to "get played more" is patently ridiculous when you consider the circumstances surrounding them. They're an Elite choice, not an HQ choice. People tend to pack the Elites with the Priests when we're talking about the normal soupy crap.
I agree. Tempestor Primes were handled terribly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 00:03:08
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
In the lists I've seen, most include an IG Battalion (3 squads), a decent minority have a Brigade (6 squads) and one had two extra squads (8 total).
Because, yes, there's a reason you see IG in Soup lists. They're a good combination of giving cheap CP, board presence, and a decent amount of shooting. While other battalions can be slightly cheaper or barely more expensive, they have less synergy or board presence. But Infantry Squads themselves are not spammed.
I’m not sure what more you want from me? I’ve given my source - BCP.
Have a quick look at the most successful Guard lists - I’ve found 4 or 5 that have more than the minimum number of infantry to fill a detachment in a 5 minute search. One took 6 in a battalion if I’m not mistaken.
And the brigade is far, FAR more popular than you imply.
Look at that that, the only bit of maths I’ve seen backs up what is actually happening with Infantry being the most popular troop choice.
7ppm Boyz Vs 4ppm Guardsmen explains in a nutshell why Guard are under priced...or conversely why boyz are severely over priced
I am more of the mind that Guardsmen should be 5ppm and Boyz should be 6ppm.
Once again, Boyz are technically the same price as long as you were bringing multiples of 10 and buying the bomb upgrade, due to it being free now.
If you weren't buying it before, well, you're buying it now.
Ahh, so we are forced into taking a Tankbusta bomb in order to make back those 10pts per 10 orkz we are charged. Well, I mean, at least you are actually arguing a semi-valid point compared to the people who say 7ppm boyz are just as good as 6ppm boyz were.
Tankbusta bombs aren't worth 10pts which is self evident by the fact that Space Marines can take them (Melta Bombs for 5pts not 10), and they tend to have better accuracy when chucking them...you know that whole BS3+ vs 5+ thing (unless you roll 3 shots), teamed with having -4AP as opposed to Tankbusta bombs which have -2AP ohh, and Melta bombs get reroll wounds vs vehicles, tankbusta bombs dont.....not to mention the fact that in a mob of 30 you have to take 3 melta bombs but you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase.
So with that in mind I think your argument is incorrect in its assumption that a Tankbusta bomb per 10 boys somehow justifies the increased points cost when at most it covers 5pts per 10 boyz....and that is being generous since Melta bombs as shown are significantly better.
But lets do the comparison again, planet bowling ball (which means a vacuum and therefore all results must be taken with a grain of salt....a pinch of salt....a bunch of salt)
at 4ppm you can take 7 Guardsman for the cost of 4 Ork Boyz. At 24' range the guardsman open fire and get 3.5 hits and 1.17ish wounds vs a 6+ save means 1 dead Ork. the 3 orkz than move, and advance for an average of 8.5',....lets make them evil sunz to give them more range and the ability to shoot their shoota's after advancing....so 6' move and 4.5 advance for 10.5' advance, still too far for a charge but they can unload 6 shoota shots for 2 hits, 1 reroll which will most likely miss but 2.33 hits for about 1.6 wounds vs a 5+ save = 1 dead Guardsman. Guard move 3' forward to get everyone into double tap range and fire off a volley of 12 shots, 6 hits and 2 wounds for 1.33 dead orkz. Orkz are now down to less than 2 boyz they move forward and shoot 4 shots for 1.4-1.5 hits and 1 wound for .66ish dead gaurd....lets say this finishes off another one, they charge, 5 guard get 10 shots for 1.66 hits and .55 wounds for lets say 1 more dead boy adding in that .33 from last time, so now its 1 boy vs 5 guard.....1 boy gets 2 attacks, 1.33 hits and 1 wound for .66 dead Guard, 4 guard remaining is 4 attacks 2 hits and .66 wounds for .55 dead Orkz...statistically the guard win this CC.
Now again, planet bowling ball so take that with a grain of salt. But statistically, without adding in any buffs for the guard (I added in Klan bonus for Orkz) the guard can shoot an equivalent # of points of orkz off the table, almost before they get into CC. And if you put this on a Macro scale you have to factor in morale which will absolutely crush the orkz
Guardsman are either too cheap or Ork boyz are too expensive, its one or the other or its both...but it definitely isn't neither of them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/29 00:50:32
Bobthehero wrote: You also put them on planet bowling ball at max range of the lasguns.
What is the average distance between armies starting in most 40k games? that is why I did that.
Yeah you could add in buffs like "da Jump" and Painboyz and warbosses to let them charge after advancing but than you have to give equivalent buffs to the guardsman...and again, I gave the boyz Kulture bonuses but didn't give the guard anything. If you add in just a simple commander to give orders or maybe a doctrine it would have been a blood bath. FRFSRF would dismantle a mob of boyz in a second. 40 shots, 20 hits 7 wounds, basically killing 6 boyz (or 42pts) in a single shooting phase is nuts for a 40pt unit of guard with a cheap HQ choice. (70pts with a company commander, or 110pts if you get a 2nd squad of guard to utilize his 2nd voice of command ability)
So you went with the average distance but litteraly the best terrain in mind for the Guard, so of course they should win this, you'll have cover or even LOS blocking terrain in most 40k games, as well.
Bobthehero wrote: So you went with the average distance but litteraly the best terrain in mind for the Guard, so of course they should win this, you'll have cover or even LOS blocking terrain in most 40k games, as well.
You know what else you have in most 40k games, objectives which are basically be at a point on the board, which generally means having to move, so just hiding out of LoS is just away to loose the game slower.
Bobthehero wrote: You can move to other cover or from no cover to LOS blocking terrain or in cover.
How do you propose we model terrain into these calculations of unit efficiencies?
In reality cover suits Guard who inevitably sit in it firing at the Orks (thus benefitting from a cover save) while the Orks trundle forward in the open.
Unless you can think of a way to model cover and LOS into these calculations I suggest we stick with the basics for now. Particularly as I’d call the differences you describe as ‘player skill differences’. A good 40k player will always beat a bad one and the things you’ve asked to be somehow factored into the calculations are almost entirely down to player skill.
Basics are slanted in favor of the shooting unit, you could probably achieve similar results with other shooty units either versus Boys or other CC units.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone arguing that allies is the issue seems to have forgotten the last two editions where theoretically your Tyranid army could've ran Scatterbikes if it wanted. In my Necron army, I could run a Tyranid detachment with 3 Flyrants with little recourse.
Armies being able to ally in Scatterbikes and Flyrants didn't lead to them being broken. They were already broken by themselves due to how they were designed. CP is merely attached to a few special moments here and there, just like formations were in the past.
In this instance, the two units largely already did the same thing, put out lots of mobile S6 shooting, and didn't really synergize, and had deployment and proximity restrictions. You wouldn't ever really run those together. Not every mismatch is a powercombo.
That said, we saw plenty of issues with allies in the previous edition with shennanigans like Skitarii in Drop Pods, BS/SW/DA superfriends deathstar lists, 6E Taudar ridiculousness, etc.
Allies have been a constant source of problems since their 6E reintroduction.
So what synergy is offered with allied Guard outside the CP for 8th?
The CP's are a huge one thay can't be discounted. Being able to pull in an extra 8-10 CP between the 32 themselves and thr CP regen they can bring, thats often enough right there in and of itself.
However one of the other big things is board control and numbers. These are powerful abilities for armies like Knights and Custodes and Smashcaptain lists that otherwise would often lack the ability to play objectives while they simultaneously smash the bejeesus out of everything and refuse to die, or would lack screeners that would enable many other opponents to more effectively get to grips. That's been no secret. Likewise, it enables access to things like psyker support that some armies dont inherently already have, or cheaper psyker options that do nothing else but that.
We can see this in non-IG related examples as well. DE don't natively have access to Doom but get made way stronger when allied with CWE (often just for Doom).
However, that's something the Infantry offer on their own merit though, and that's all your listing. Even if you included the clause from Come The apocalypse for allies like last edition they would still be taken. On their own merits.
All the ally problems you listed were due to unit, transport, and HQ interactions. There is zero of that now and just purely the allying is happening. Even if CP wasn't shared, the Infantry would still be taken for that strength.
It's just easy enough to get the CP you do it. If Knights only had access to using a Patrol for allies, the Infantry would still be taken for their merit.
Spoletta wrote: We are pointing our guns at the wrong target, leave the grunts alone and look at ultra cheap HQs, the problem is there.
That's a fair point. This thread was originally about how the orders make the guardsmen perform patently superhuman feats. Perhaps nerfing the orders would be a good solution from both the balance and fluff perspective.
I proffer a new idea. Perhaps officers have to pay for orders.
We already have an example with the Tempestor Prime.
Perhaps an officer gets one order base (being an infantry officer, after all), and add 5 as an upgrade.
CCs could have a maximum of of two, so paying 5 points like the Tempestor Prime.
Platoon Commanders stay the same and get played more?
Yes, let's follow the example of one of the most maligned HQs in the Guard book!
No. Tempestor Primes are stupidly done and thinking that it is somehow a solution is just ridiculous. Remember that Tempestor Primes are ONLY able to affect Militarum Tempestus units like Officers are ONLY able to affect <Regiment> Infantry. There's a reason why the TP kinda/sorta works and it's that there's three units total with MT tags(one of which is the TP himself).
Platoon Commanders are a whole different kettle of fish and remember this simple fact:
They are not HQs.
Pretending that they need help to "get played more" is patently ridiculous when you consider the circumstances surrounding them. They're an Elite choice, not an HQ choice. People tend to pack the Elites with the Priests when we're talking about the normal soupy crap.
I agree. Tempestor Primes were handled terribly.
Yeah, I don’t fully like how Tempestor Primes are, giving up their side arms to hold order sticks, but if we considered this, perhaps they could be changed as well.
What I’m more interested in, however, is what an order is worth.
Let’s assume things like company commanders still get their first order free, as well as platoon commanders. What is an optional second order upgrade cost pointswise? GW decided with their weirdness 5 points in the Tempestor Prime. What do you think?
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
However, that's something the Infantry offer on their own merit though, and that's all your listing. Even if you included the clause from Come The apocalypse for allies like last edition they would still be taken. On their own merits.
All the ally problems you listed were due to unit, transport, and HQ interactions. There is zero of that now and just purely the allying is happening. Even if CP wasn't shared, the Infantry would still be taken for that strength.
It's just easy enough to get the CP you do it. If Knights only had access to using a Patrol for allies, the Infantry would still be taken for their merit.
In some instances that's absolutely true, but then they wouldn't be fueling power-ups for super units while doing so and those lists wouldn't be quite as powerful. For many other lists, the CP is going to be the overriding reason for the inclusion and they'll either go back to a mono-build or look for an ally that supports the list better in another way. For some it'll be a deal killer, for others it won't, but either way it'll be less of an issue and less ubiquitous.
Also, at least to me, it makes more background sense. The logistical, doctrinal, organization, and command structure (as expressed by CP) of an Imperial Guard unit fighting alongside a Space Marine chapter isn't going to be directly enabling a Space Marine Captain to make a devastating charge or calling down a Battle Barge's bombardment guns for instance the way it could bring down a preliminary artillery bombardment, deploy a pre-trained mass grenade attack by allied troops, or expand an allied company commander's relic armory
I'll still be advocating for that long after Guardsmen are made 5ppm
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
However, that's something the Infantry offer on their own merit though, and that's all your listing. Even if you included the clause from Come The apocalypse for allies like last edition they would still be taken. On their own merits.
All the ally problems you listed were due to unit, transport, and HQ interactions. There is zero of that now and just purely the allying is happening. Even if CP wasn't shared, the Infantry would still be taken for that strength.
It's just easy enough to get the CP you do it. If Knights only had access to using a Patrol for allies, the Infantry would still be taken for their merit.
In some instances that's absolutely true, but then they wouldn't be fueling power-ups for super units while doing so and those lists wouldn't be quite as powerful. For many other lists, the CP is going to be the overriding reason for the inclusion and they'll either go back to a mono-build or look for an ally that supports the list better in another way. For some it'll be a deal killer, for others it won't, but either way it'll be less of an issue and less ubiquitous.
Also, at least to me, it makes more background sense. The logistical, doctrinal, organization, and command structure (as expressed by CP) of an Imperial Guard unit fighting alongside a Space Marine chapter isn't going to be directly enabling a Space Marine Captain to make a devastating charge or calling down a Battle Barge's bombardment guns for instance the way it could bring down a preliminary artillery bombardment, deploy a pre-trained mass grenade attack by allied troops, or expand an allied company commander's relic armory
I'll still be advocating for that long after Guardsmen are made 5ppm
Remember that the Loyal 32 are the same price as an Armiger. So even with just a Patrol, a Knight or Custodes player will take them without the CP.
It's simply more beneficial to get said CP. However, part of that issue is both miscosted Strategems and inability for some factions to take in CP.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The great Unspeakable One finally got tired of spanking to ultramarines and switched his obsessive fhanboi fetish to guardsmen?
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Techpriestsupport wrote: The great Unspeakable One finally got tired of spanking to ultramarines and switched his obsessive fhanboi fetish to guardsmen?
You're about five years late on the memes. He hasn't worked at the company for years in anything but a freelance capacity doing short stories.
You notice they don't list authors on codexes now...
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Spoletta wrote: We are pointing our guns at the wrong target, leave the grunts alone and look at ultra cheap HQs, the problem is there.
That's a fair point. This thread was originally about how the orders make the guardsmen perform patently superhuman feats. Perhaps nerfing the orders would be a good solution from both the balance and fluff perspective.
I proffer a new idea. Perhaps officers have to pay for orders. We already have an example with the Tempestor Prime. Perhaps an officer gets one order base (being an infantry officer, after all), and add 5 as an upgrade. CCs could have a maximum of of two, so paying 5 points like the Tempestor Prime. Platoon Commanders stay the same and get played more?
Yes, let's follow the example of one of the most maligned HQs in the Guard book!
No. Tempestor Primes are stupidly done and thinking that it is somehow a solution is just ridiculous. Remember that Tempestor Primes are ONLY able to affect Militarum Tempestus units like Officers are ONLY able to affect <Regiment> Infantry. There's a reason why the TP kinda/sorta works and it's that there's three units total with MT tags(one of which is the TP himself).
Platoon Commanders are a whole different kettle of fish and remember this simple fact: They are not HQs.
Pretending that they need help to "get played more" is patently ridiculous when you consider the circumstances surrounding them. They're an Elite choice, not an HQ choice. People tend to pack the Elites with the Priests when we're talking about the normal soupy crap.
You havn't explained why you think that it would be a bad idea to increase the cost of orders, to me it seems to be the most logical solution.
Guards are not being taken in soups due to their durability, because at 6 ppm they suck durability wise, and that's what you are paying them in soup. The loyal 32 are everywhere due to the combination of 3 factors:
1) One of the cheapest possible battalions 2) 3 Obsec troops with Move, Move, Move. 3) Good firepower on call thanks to FRFSRF.
Increase the cost of orders and you solved all 3 points together, with minimal impact on the mono AM lists, which i honestly don't see as a problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 08:30:50
Guardsmen without orders or support are 4ppm models.
Pleas Sir? Can my Grots pay +1pt per model, and get extra shots, movement, str, tough, Sv, range, ws and ld?
Can we make it so guardsmen can start taking shots for tanks or HWTs? ill take a reduced stat line for that ability any day
Hey, no problem. Just place them around the required model and shout ‘pop’ each time one dies :-) Although Orks do have to pay cp to get grots to catch bullets. Must be the extra ‘good boy’ treats.
Bobthehero wrote: Basics are slanted in favor of the shooting unit, you could probably achieve similar results with other shooty units either versus Boys or other CC units.
He picked shooty Boys. These are our shooty troop unit. Have you played Orks often? The only time you see Boys in cover is when they have been practically destroyed through fire and the remaining models occupy it. I always see Guardsmen in cover and it wasn't factored into their save. If anything the assumptions favour Guard. And they still win by a mile.
Since there is no reasonable way to model player skill the basics will suffice for now. And look at that, Guard are more efficient.
And? They haven't done that for at least two editions now.
It's known that he hasn't worked there for at least 4-6 years. People made a big hooplah when Ward made a comment that he was "back at GW for meetings" awhile back but it was clear that it was in a freelance capacity dealing strictly with background/fiction.
Spoletta wrote:You havn't explained why you think that it would be a bad idea to increase the cost of orders, to me it seems to be the most logical solution.
Of course it would to you.
Does the cost of a model with Auras go up if they affect multiple units at once? No?
Guards are not being taken in soups due to their durability, because at 6 ppm they suck durability wise, and that's what you are paying them in soup.
The loyal 32 are everywhere due to the combination of 3 factors:
1) One of the cheapest possible battalions
Which means it's because of Command Points.
2) 3 Obsec troops with Move, Move, Move.
...Seriously? That's your argument?
Scions are used for kamikaze drops and Conscripts aren't used much, if at all, since they got nerfed.
3) Good firepower on call thanks to FRFSRF.
Oh yeah, those lasguns man!
Increase the cost of orders and you solved all 3 points together, with minimal impact on the mono AM lists, which i honestly don't see as a problem.
You know what else solves those points?
1) Command Points being tied strictly to the Detachment generating them.
2) Nothing--this isn't really an issue. People for whatever reason seem to think Guard should be slow and unable to quickmarch for an objective. M^3 means you can't do any shooting with that unit.
3) No need for a change. FRFSRF is literally just Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 12:56:08
And? They haven't done that for at least two editions now.
It's known that he hasn't worked there for at least 4-6 years. People made a big hooplah when Ward made a comment that he was "back at GW for meetings" awhile back but it was clear that it was in a freelance capacity dealing strictly with background/fiction.
Spoletta wrote:You havn't explained why you think that it would be a bad idea to increase the cost of orders, to me it seems to be the most logical solution.
Of course it would to you.
Does the cost of a model with Auras go up if they affect multiple units at once? No?
Guards are not being taken in soups due to their durability, because at 6 ppm they suck durability wise, and that's what you are paying them in soup.
The loyal 32 are everywhere due to the combination of 3 factors:
1) One of the cheapest possible battalions
Which means it's because of Command Points.
2) 3 Obsec troops with Move, Move, Move.
...Seriously? That's your argument?
Scions are used for kamikaze drops and Conscripts aren't used much, if at all, since they got nerfed.
3) Good firepower on call thanks to FRFSRF.
Oh yeah, those lasguns man!
Increase the cost of orders and you solved all 3 points together, with minimal impact on the mono AM lists, which i honestly don't see as a problem.
You know what else solves those points?
1) Command Points being tied strictly to the Detachment generating them.
2) Nothing--this isn't really an issue. People for whatever reason seem to think Guard should be slow and unable to quickmarch for an objective. M^3 means you can't do any shooting with that unit.
3) No need for a change. FRFSRF is literally just Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.
Do we want to clarify if CP can be transferred across detachments with the same keywords, a la the army’s two guard detachments can share CP but the SM detachment can’t use the guard CP?
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
And? They haven't done that for at least two editions now.
It's known that he hasn't worked there for at least 4-6 years. People made a big hooplah when Ward made a comment that he was "back at GW for meetings" awhile back but it was clear that it was in a freelance capacity dealing strictly with background/fiction.
Spoletta wrote:You havn't explained why you think that it would be a bad idea to increase the cost of orders, to me it seems to be the most logical solution.
Of course it would to you.
Does the cost of a model with Auras go up if they affect multiple units at once? No?
Guards are not being taken in soups due to their durability, because at 6 ppm they suck durability wise, and that's what you are paying them in soup. The loyal 32 are everywhere due to the combination of 3 factors:
1) One of the cheapest possible battalions
Which means it's because of Command Points.
2) 3 Obsec troops with Move, Move, Move.
...Seriously? That's your argument? Scions are used for kamikaze drops and Conscripts aren't used much, if at all, since they got nerfed.
3) Good firepower on call thanks to FRFSRF.
Oh yeah, those lasguns man!
Increase the cost of orders and you solved all 3 points together, with minimal impact on the mono AM lists, which i honestly don't see as a problem.
You know what else solves those points?
1) Command Points being tied strictly to the Detachment generating them. 2) Nothing--this isn't really an issue. People for whatever reason seem to think Guard should be slow and unable to quickmarch for an objective. M^3 means you can't do any shooting with that unit. 3) No need for a change. FRFSRF is literally just Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.
Commanders don't have auras, you know EXACTLY how many units they are going to effect. On SMHQs this is impossible, so correctly you pay for the auras partially on the model and the partially on the potentially benefitting units. Since we don't want guards to partially pay for orders, because at that point they absolutely need to be 5 ppm if not more, then you pay it all on the officers. Right now the advantages given by those orders are much greater than the cost of the officers, so they should be increased.
Oh by the way, i'm 100% with you on segregating CPs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 14:39:56
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