Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not Online!!! wrote:
You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.

Ergo you can't form a HWT.

Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.

Again, not sure what you're getting at.

Page 86:
"Up to two Brood Brothers may form a single Brood Brothers Weapons Team; this team must take one item from the Heavy Weapons list."

Page 79:
"Many of the units you will find on the following pages reference one or more of the following wargear lists (e.g. Special Weapons). When this is the case, the unit may take any item from the appropriate list below."

Ergo:
2 BBs may make a HWT, but they must take a heavy weapon, which comes form the heavy weapon list, which the entry gives them explicit access to.

What am I missing?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.

Comparison is not required nor does something written for one entry apply to an entry in an entirely different book unless that book is being used directly, which as H.B.M.C. noted it is not or else you'd have more special weapons options. The entry in question states you must take a weapon from the other list if you choose to form a HWT. The list of weapons exists, ergo Brood Brother HWTs are a valid option.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.

You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.

Ergo you can't form a HWT.

Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.

I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GW FAQ.

So, you're saying because the sentence that says "blablabla may form a heavy weapons team and must take an item from the heavy weapons list" is not in the section of the datasheet that says "Wargear Options" and instead is up at the top, they can't take the weapon?

That's...utterly asinine.

So, looking at my Veteran squad in the guard codex, it says "each veteran is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" up at the top.

Because that's not in the wargear section, does that mean I can't take lasguns and frag grenades on my veterans?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 xttz wrote:
They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.

Imma need you to show me where, in the Codex, it says that my Brood Brother squads can take Meltaguns and Plasma Guns.

Can you take, as part of a legal Genestealer Cult-based matched play army, one or more kinds of unit with the BROOD BROTHERS keyword and any of the special weapons options listed below?

Sniper rifle
Flamer
Grenade launcher
Meltagun
Plasma gun

It's a yes or no answer.

 xttz wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 xttz wrote:
They're still absolutely nothing stopping you from taking any of those things.

Imma need you to show me where, in the Codex, it says that my Brood Brother squads can take Meltaguns and Plasma Guns.

Can you take, as part of a legal Genestealer Cult-based matched play army, one or more kinds of unit with the BROOD BROTHERS keyword and any of the special weapons options listed below?

Sniper rifle
Flamer
Grenade launcher
Meltagun
Plasma gun

It's a yes or no answer.

god I am SO MAD that my thousand sons army can only have Horrors, Flamers, and Screamers in it?!?!?! WTF GW why can't my Thousand Sons have Lords of Change, Blue Scribes, and Heralds of Tzeentch, it's so unfluffy they're tzeentch daemons and tzeentch marines. It can't be that they gave them full access to each other but you have to purchase the daemon codex to get the full list, I WOULDNT HAVE SOMETHING TO BE MAD ABOUT!

 xttz wrote:
It's a yes or no answer.

*checks Genestealer Cult Codex*

Nope. Sure can't.

What I can do is take exactly (and only) what's on the sprue - Flamers and Grenade Launchers - exactly as written in the Genestealer Cult Codex.

Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.

If you want to point to a different book and say "But they can there!" that doesn't even remotely address my core argument, being that Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.

You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.

Ergo you can't form a HWT.

Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.

I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GW FAQ.

So, you're saying because the sentence that says "blablabla may form a heavy weapons team and must take an item from the heavy weapons list" is not in the section of the datasheet that says "Wargear Options" and instead is up at the top, they can't take the weapon?

That's...utterly asinine.

So, looking at my Veteran squad in the guard codex, it says "each veteran is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" up at the top.

Because that's not in the wargear section, does that mean I can't take lasguns and frag grenades on my veterans?

Don't blame me, i am just the messanger that states that this SHOULD be in the wargear options part of the profile. LIKE ALL OTHER HWT/ HW upgrades and options are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krinsath wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Compare it to the Inf squad entry of the AM. Compare it to any other unit that can form a HWT.

Comparison is not required nor does something written for one entry apply to an entry in an entirely different book unless that book is being used directly, which as H.B.M.C. noted it is not or else you'd have more special weapons options. The entry in question states you must take a weapon from the other list if you choose to form a HWT. The list of weapons exists, ergo Brood Brother HWTs are a valid option.

That is the description of the general contents, NOT what options a unit has.
So yes the comparison is valid, or am i allowed to suddendly give Hades Autocannons to defilers?

I don't think where it is or isn't matters. The rules say they have access to the Wargear list, the Wargear list defines them as individual wargear lists that units may be granted access to via their unit entries, therefore the BB unit entry grants access to the HW list because it says it does.

And your argument is falling apart. It's a simple two-step process:

Step 1: BB unit entry - Can take from the HW list.
Step 2: Wargear list - Unit entries will grant access to one or more of these wargear lists (the plural is important) allowing those units to select from them.
Therefore: BB HWTs can take HWs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 xttz wrote:
It's a yes or no answer.

*checks Genestealer Cult Codex*

Nope. Sure can't.

What I can do is take exactly (and only) what's on the sprue - Flamers and Grenade Launchers - exactly as written in the Genestealer Cult Codex.

Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.

If you want to point to a different book and say "But they can there!" that doesn't even remotely address my core argument, being that Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.

It is a thing in 8th edition that some armies that frequently have allies get a little bit of the allied faction printed into their codex for convenience. AM gets techpriests, ministorum priests, crusaders. Death Guard and Thousand Sons have daemons printed in. They have to pick some spot to draw the line and stop printing all the entries from the ally-able codex into the new codex book.

Personally, I'm fine with them putting the line somewhere, especially when I get bonuses that I didnt ask for - a higher squadcap, cult ambush, and the ability to take BBs to fill slots in GSC detachments. All that is above and beyond what I'd expect, and what I get in most factions. Honestly, it might be an indicator that you're a little bit spoilt in that regard because the only other book that has those "convenient ally printings" with those kinds of bonuses is the Guard codex, where they can use them to fill slots. I can't take horrors as a troop choice in my Thousand Sons army, even though I'd love to and it'd make constructing my armies far easier.

I also use necromunda models for my brood brother units. I don't get bent out of shape that I don't have needlers, harpoon guns and hand flamers in the brood brother list even though those are on the models I'll be using for them.

You've got to draw the line somewhere as to what guard stuff to print in the GSC book. "what's in the box" is what I would consider..the obvious default?

the_scotsman wrote:

You have a hard time getting a company commander who has nothing to do turn 1 other than double advance himself into position?

put it this way: before release, we had a 25-page thread crying about how gsc could deep strike 20 acolytes, use a 2CP stratagem, and hit an enemy screen with 20d6 S3 AP- hits (70 on average).

40 guardsmen FRFSRF'ing for 0CP at 12" put out 80 S3 AP- hits and cost exactly the same plus 30pts for the commander.

This is rather a discussion for the tactics thread.
Anyway I think that running a company commander in position for deep striking guardsmen might be pretty dangerous for him. He will outpace a part of your army and also restricts you a lot in where your guardsmen can drop down.
So there are certainly some risks and downsides to this approach.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 xttz wrote:
It's a yes or no answer.

*checks Genestealer Cult Codex*
Broodbrother Squads as they exist in the Genestealer Cult Codex have had their weapon options curtained simply because of what's on the single regular infantry sprue that comes in the Brood Bother box.

You don't know that. Sure it could be part of the reason, another could be that it's an entirely different unit entry to the IG version. It has double the model cap, different morale-related rules, a powerful deployment rule and is affected by various interactions within the GSC codex. GW could well have thought it overkill to give them extra wargear options too.

Yet another factor could be that GW don't want to be maintaining unnecessary wargear options & future CA points updates in armies that already have a method to access those choices.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Which has been. My point. In this. Entire. Discussion.

Your original argument was "This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity. ". It meandered into some weird technicality of "but it's not in this specific book!!!!" when pointed out that it's really a non-issue in this case.

Yet GW provide the rules to use the vast majority of another codex as part of a single cohesive army, and that's anti-creativity? No.

H.B.M.C., a GSC army can take the AM infantry squad as listed in the AM codex as part of a Brood Brothers detachment. They can take any and all options available on that warscroll in a Brood Brothers detachment. They can take the Brood Brothers warscroll in the GSC codex as part of a GSC detachment without breaking the allegiance. Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.

Not only can you have 1 Heavy Weapons team, you can have 3. And to these other guys- You folks are not reading the whole series of units that are available.


The answer is yes, from options available on the list. The snipers rifles go to the bikers, the flamer and grenade launchers go to the BB Infantry Squads, and the Heavy rock weapons to the Acolytes and Neophytes.

And just so we are clear- THIS is an army that can have Genestealers as troops.... If you haven't seen them in action, trust me, you don't need to nit pick a plasma gun when you are fielding living weapons that wipe out entire units, and trash vehicles with the claws options.... They didn't drop in these blip markers for nothing as you live in Ambush, as well... All in all, This list is as Formidable as anything out so far.

Acolytes get hand to hand and the claws options. their "heavy Weapon is a heavy rock -drill, saw, or cutter. or a demo charge...

Neophytes, are like terrorists, or rebels. they get the mining equipment that they use as weapons, demo charges, rock cutters, etc... They don't get heavy weapons like the IG use, they get heavy mining weapons. (two different types of heavy weapons options)

the Brood Brother (BB) infantry Squad is like a Planetary defense force squad, where they have IG equipment/ uniformed. troops.

BB Infantry Squad can have 1 Heavy Weapon team of 2 guys. BB Heavy Weapon Squad can have up to 3 heavy weapon teams- 3 heavy weapons total

Be happy with your options... this army is sick.

 xttz wrote:
You don't know that.

Oh come on!

The no model = no rule thing has been around for so long that denying it is simply naive.

 xttz wrote:
Your original argument was "This no-exact-model-in-this-specific-box = no rule nonsense is asinine, and is actually anti-creativity. ". It meandered into some weird technicality of "but it's not in this specific book!!!!" when pointed out that it's really a non-issue in this case.

It's not a "weird technicality". It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.

 xttz wrote:
Yet GW provide the rules to use the vast majority of another codex as part of a single cohesive army, and that's anti-creativity? No.

Again, you are being naive. No model = no rule is a thing, has been for quite some time, and denying it just comes across as blindly stupid.

 EnTyme wrote:
H.B.M.C., a GSC army can take the AM infantry squad as listed in the AM codex as part of a Brood Brothers detachment.

So what? All I've been talking about is the Genestealer Cult codex limiting weapon options based upon the specific plastic sprue in the box, rather than the weapons that have been available for years and years.

 EnTyme wrote:
Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.

Then you haven't been paying attention, watching as options vanish from units because the kits don't have the specific part to allow it, even when it was allowed in the past (off the top of my head... Rokkits on Trukks, or Chaos Lords in a Death Guard army not getting the same special rules as actual Death Guard because GW don't make a specific "Death Guard Chaos Lord" kit). This is no different, and just another extension of no model = no rule.

 Grot 6 wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Basically you can't buy something from the HW list, which you must in order to form a HWT.

I'm not seeing what you're getting at.

You need the option in the "WARGEAR" Part of the list to buy the HWT.
There is none if you look at your screenshot.

Ergo you can't form a HWT.

Basically; it's a nitpick but still RAW, you don't have the wargear option.

I am not stating you can't, it is obvious from the box and the rest of the entry that you should. That's why i said that is one for a GW FAQ.

Not only can you have 1 Heavy Weapons team, you can have 3. And to these other guys- You folks are not reading the whole series of units that are available.


The answer is yes, from options available on the list. The snipers rifles go to the bikers, the flamer and grenade launchers go to the BB Infantry Squads, and the Heavy rock weapons to the Acolytes and Neophytes.

And just so we are clear- THIS is an army that can have Genestealers as troops.... If you haven't seen them in action, trust me, you don't need to nit pick a plasma gun when you are fielding living weapons that wipe out entire units, and trash vehicles with the claws options.... They didn't drop in these blip markers for nothing as you live in Ambush, as well... All in all, This list is as Formidable as anything out so far.

Acolytes get hand to hand and the claws options. their "heavy Weapon is a heavy rock -drill, saw, or cutter. or a demo charge...

Neophytes, are like terrorists, or rebels. they get the mining equipment that they use as weapons, demo charges, rock cutters, etc... They don't get heavy weapons like the IG use, they get heavy mining weapons. (two different types of heavy weapons options)

the Brood Brother (BB) infantry Squad is like a Planetary defense force squad, where they have IG equipment/ uniformed. troops.

BB Infantry Squad can have 1 Heavy Weapon team of 2 guys. BB Heavy Weapon Squad can have up to 3 heavy weapon teams- 3 heavy weapons total

Be happy with your options... this army is sick.

I think you are all missing HBMCs point.
The buisness practice of limiting rules to individual parts on an individual kit does stifle creativity from a modeling perspective. It also means that codex will loose access to units or options based on how kits were designed when that was not the business practice. For example Rough riders. The rough riders always had more codex options than the kits were sold with. You had to kit bash to upgrade your squad. The whole citadel catalog was parted out by individual pieces so you could order the individual parts you wanted for kit bashing. It was really obvious that rough riders would get cut not just because they had lackluster rules, but because the kit was functionally outdated.

If you try to explain these limitations via PDF fluff you haven't been reading your regimental standard soldier. Report to your company's commissar for remedial mental fitness training.

 Astmeister wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.

Classic GW,

Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.

I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like

Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders

or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.

Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.

Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.

20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.

That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.

It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.

Tempester prime with rod.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Tempester prime with rod.

Another reason BB really should have just been a regiment-equivalent.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Yes, it's annoying that the two warscrolls are different, and no, I'm not sure why they are.

Then you haven't been paying attention, watching as options vanish from units because the kits don't have the specific part to allow it, even when it was allowed in the past (off the top of my head... Rokkits on Trukks, or Chaos Lords in a Death Guard army not getting the same special rules as actual Death Guard because GW don't make a specific "Death Guard Chaos Lord" kit). This is no different, and just another extension of no model = no rule.

All I'm seeing is you throwing a five-alarm tantrum over a restriction that isn't there.

I'm sad that there is no mention of House Mortimer.... It was a hope dashed across the ground.

Ah well. I really like the Codex and am loving how varied I can go with the builds.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.

Taking IG units alongside GSC isn't the same as thing as allying them with say Space Marines or AdMech. The printed rules in the GSC codex specifically modifies the behaviour of another faction; and in quite significant ways in some cases. It takes some weird ass bizzaro logic to claim that the new Brood Brothers rule "hardly factors" into the GSC codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The no model = no rule thing has been around for so long that denying it is simply naive.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again, you are being naive. No model = no rule is a thing, has been for quite some time, and denying it just comes across as blindly stupid.

Feel free to quote the post where I said no model = no rule does not exist in 40k. I haven't once offered an opinion on that wider topic. Mainly because we're in the GSC rumour thread and debating what wargear options GW publish for Orks or Death Guard isn't too relevant.

All I've talked about is this specific case of an option still being available to use, despite your denials of reality and willingness to throw insults at me over a strawman argument you have concocted in your own head.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I think you are all missing HBMCs point.

If he was trying to make a point about something then he picked an atrocious example and an even worse thread to make it in.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Genestealer Cults are also only able to steal leman russes that come from the Leman Russ Battle Tank tm kit and not the Leman Russ Demolisher tm kit.

Classic GW,

Well i guess GSC won't be using IG all that much anymore.

I mean, they will be, but they'll 100% be just allied in supreme command detachments. Depending on whether the fAQ fixes the orderable crusader/bullgryn goofiness, you'll likely see something like

Company Commander
Tank Commander
Tank Commander
Bullgryns/Crusaders

or just not with the bullgryns/crusaders.

Move thrice/fight thrice crusaders are among the silliest things ive ever seen unintentionally added to the game.

Also, even if BBs could take meltaguns, nobody would. They're utterly broken as-is just with lasguns.

20 man squadcap, deep strike, and you can ally in a company commander for orders.

That is the most broken infantry unit in the entire game.

It will be quite hard to get the company commander in order distance, when you are deep striking the 20 Brood Brothers though. So I am not convinced it is super broken.

Tempester prime with rod.

Cool idea. I did not think about that.

Okay so everything is broken, Yeeeeehaaaa!

 Astmeister wrote:

Okay so everything is broken, Yeeeeehaaaa!

I'm really curious about the effect of taking 30 Brood Brothers Conscripts that you can put next to a Patriarch, ignore morale, and make Unquestioning Loyalty saves with.

 xttz wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the printed fething rules in actual Codex. How much clearer can that be? The fact that you can take different units from different books hardly factors into this book.

Taking IG units alongside GSC isn't the same as thing as allying them with say Space Marines or AdMech. The printed rules in the GSC codex specifically modifies the behaviour of another faction; and in quite significant ways in some cases. It takes some weird ass bizzaro logic to claim that the new Brood Brothers rule "hardly factors" into the GSC codex.

Genuinely think you're reading too much into the BB rule here. It's original intent was simply to allow GSC to ally with another army with which it shared zero faction keywords. The new rule maintains that, but adds further restrictions to prevent CP abuse and regiment bonuses (with Unquestioning loyalty thrown in to compensate). It seems odd to me to say that GSC and IG should be considered all one army simply because of the above. They are no closer entwined than SM and IG are, and it is not unreasonable to look at the GSC codex in isolation. Not everyone wants to ally in from the most powerful codex simply because they can.

From my inspection, every unit in the GSC codex only has the options available to it that are on the sprue. This has personally impacted me as my BB infantry squad with a bolt pistol sarge is no longer legal as it's now a separate unit with narrower options.

 mould2k wrote:
They are no closer entwined than SM and IG are

That's demonstrably untrue. Not only does this codex effectively introduce a new sub-faction trait for another book - overwriting keywords to suit - there are intentional two-way interactions between the factions. My post above about IG units being able to ignore morale and while shielding GSC characters is the perfect example.

Ynnari aside (whose entire schtick is using other factions' stuff), this is the closest GW have come in 8E to meshing two factions together into a single cohesive army.

I can see how the bolt pistol thing can be annoying. Have you emailed the GW FAQ team about it? That's something I could see them errata'ing back in. There's already several examples in 8th of them relaxing unit restrictions like this.

So, did GW completely feth up the production of some of the new GSC kits. The Jackel Alphus and outrider detachment are OOS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the US I should add.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
So, did GW completely feth up the production of some of the new GSC kits. The Jackel Alphus and outrider detachment are OOS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the US I should add.

They continue to underestimate demand for some releases, which is a mixed blessing for GW I suppose.

Yup my normally reliable supplier has got none of the stock his rep promised him for any of the GSC release, the rep keeps saying soon, soon

but as yet soon has not arrived despite most of it apparently being in stock on the GW UK site

I suspect it less underestimating demand as it is simply being unable to supply it without dramatically slowing their release schedule down which they don't seem to want to do

There's a lot of rules discussion happening in this rumor thread. The codex has been released; please hash it out in You Make Da Call.

Thank you.

Are there any more GSC releases in the pipeline even?

 privateer4hire wrote:
Are there any more GSC releases in the pipeline even?

Not officially, except for the Start Collecting box. There were rumours that there might be a superheavy digging machine of some kind later this year.

But this thread might be used for the FAQ, presumably next week?