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Also, GW needs a huge staff of artists, writers, sculptors, painters, photographers, marketing people, etc, to constantly churn out new kits. The perry's just do one or two kits a year, sculpted themselves. So they don't need any of that.

But yeah, people pay it. Most people would not pay $5 per miniature for historical miniatures, but many people pay that for space marines.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

If we're honest, GW doesn't need retail stores, and they could reduce their overhead substantialy if they desired. They don't see the need to do that at the moment.

This is the part I disagree with. They do need the stores.
Where else will younger players just getting into the hobby learn that there is only Warhammer to play. That you must buy only GW terrain to play a GW game. You only paint with GW brushes and use GW paints. That you can only ever use GW figures for GW games. Etc etc etc.

It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company". It's why there's so many people defending GW on here and looking forward to the price rise. GW need the shops for that cult-like brainwashing.

TIL "This doesn't seem so bad, and at least they gave us advance warning" means "Boy, I'm so glad they're charging more for this!" You can always count on this board for some quality hyperbole.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

If we're honest, GW doesn't need retail stores, and they could reduce their overhead substantialy if they desired. They don't see the need to do that at the moment.

This is the part I disagree with. They do need the stores.
Where else will younger players just getting into the hobby learn that there is only Warhammer to play. That you must buy only GW terrain to play a GW game. You only paint with GW brushes and use GW paints. That you can only ever use GW figures for GW games. Etc etc etc.

It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company". It's why there's so many people defending GW on here and looking forward to the price rise. GW need the shops for that cult-like brainwashing.

As opposed to - back in the day - miserable historicals grognards giving youngsters the cold shoulder for daring to turn up wanting to play WWII battles with their Airfix models when obviously the only period to play is Musket and Pike and the only acceptably beardy models are lead miniatures.

Oh and my Sherman tanks were no historical Tank Division in particular <shock> <horror>

I was that teenager. Let's not wish ourselves back to the days before GW folks, they were not all rosy-glow and wonderful.

GW stores bring lots of youngsters into the hobby and guess what? Most of them figure out that there are more games out there and more manufacturers out there but plenty of them are left some goodwill towards GW and still buy quite a lot of GW stuff - which for GW is the point and if the spin-off is that it keeps the entire hobby healthy and indirectly keeps all their competitors in business that is something that GW can clearly live with as it has been doing for decades. If you want to snootily lambast anyone who retains that goodwill as "brainwashed" then that says a whole lot more about your attitude than theirs.

The stores are pretty much a loss-leader. They keep the flow of customers coming in to keep GW alive and to an extent keep the whole industry alive. Unlike the soap-shy denizens of many a club the manager at a GW store is actually paid to be friendly and welcoming (and bathe). OK maybe a few of those managers fall short but they absolutely are supposed to do that - whereas it is utter blind luck if you get a good or bad welcome at some random club and find someone willing to patiently work you into the game and willingly lose a few games to you in order to encourage a new player in.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company".

Whats unreasonable about this? Many times I find rules that I like but, for me, the miniatures that the same company makes or go with the boardgame are unapealing or outright ugly. Not always of course, and the inverse can also happen, like with Mierce, where I love their miniatures but Darkage is not something I like.

 Galas wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company".

Whats unreasonable about this? Many times I find rules that I like but, for me, the miniatures that the same company makes or go with the boardgame are unapealing or outright ugly. Not always of course, and the inverse can also happen, like with Mierce, where I love their miniatures but Darkage is not something I like.

I suppose that the problem is that in a lot of cases, that statement comes attached with the following "...therefore I can't ever try out or play game XYZ, because, using company ABC minis to play game XYZ rules? What are we now, savages?".

And it is sorta true.Obviously there is nothing wrong not liking the minis from a game (I mean, duh). But for some people, the only way to play at all a game is with that game's official minis, and anything else is sort of heresy.And other people just go and use the minis they like, even though in some cases (like boardgames, or using GW minis to play with other systems) it might lead to additional expenses.

 Galas wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company".

Whats unreasonable about this? Many times I find rules that I like but, for me, the miniatures that the same company makes or go with the boardgame are unapealing or outright ugly. Not always of course, and the inverse can also happen, like with Mierce, where I love their miniatures but Darkage is not something I like.

So play a set of game rules you like with Mierce miniatures?
Thanks. I think you verified my point for me.

 Azreal13 wrote:
"They have high overheads" is categorically not an inherent defense for higher prices.

If you take a luxury car compared to a basic one, you can point to areas where the manufacturer has used more complex systems, higher quality materials, simply included more, to justify a price difference.

If you take two pots of acrylic paint, both comprised of a carrier and a pigment, and the only justification for one's higher price is "muh overhead" then what you have is a company that's managed itself into a situation where it can't compete.

GW leans so hard on its market position for leverage sometimes that should there ever come a time where this sector attracts attention from any sort of market disruptor it's going to have a real fight in its hands.

GW aren't a miniature paint company. Still, competing in that sector quite well.

TL/DR

But does anyone else actually grasp how capitalism actually works?

They have something. We want it. ‘Fair’ doesn’t come into it. And their financials over the past couple years suggest those taking offence are very much pissing into the wind on this one.

Mad Doc, in short...no, a lot of people don't.

Admittedly it's mostly younger people, but there is a large portion of the population who fervently believe that basic fundamental concepts in life shouldn't exist "because". That's actually how some minds works (at least temporarily, they normally snap out of it and eventually see common sense later).

I only use GW paints, but buy any brush to get the job done. I just bought the new water pot they made, I used to use an old yoghurt pot. The new water pot is actually a good purchase,I can definitely notice those ribbed edges cleaning the brushes better.

As I have only ever used GW paints and never look at 3rd party prices, the increase doesn't seem horrible to me. My painting has been improved by the Warhammer Tv tutorials massively so if continuing to buy those paints and know the colours in the video quickly gives me models I am super proud of then it is all worth it to me. As for model prices, who doesn't want cheaper figures, I have been waiting for a bloodthirster for a while, I spent my saved money on some terrain as I don't have much and needed more to improve games. Now I have to do that thing called saving and budgeting so I can afford my plastic addiction. From my point of view, we live in a world where most people who play the game once they have a small army can just save up for as long as needed to get the next new hot model. £60 for a start collecting, another lets say £30 on some paints and £50 for rules and books will give me personally enough content to work on for about 8 months, so a pretty cheap hobby if you break down how many hours I will spend using that all. I spend about 10 hours on painting a basic figure.

My price annoyance in the modern world is remembering how good video games used to be for £40 back on my xbox 360 and how trash xbox one games being completed in 8 hours cost £60 today.

JWBS wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
"They have high overheads" is categorically not an inherent defense for higher prices.

If you take a luxury car compared to a basic one, you can point to areas where the manufacturer has used more complex systems, higher quality materials, simply included more, to justify a price difference.

If you take two pots of acrylic paint, both comprised of a carrier and a pigment, and the only justification for one's higher price is "muh overhead" then what you have is a company that's managed itself into a situation where it can't compete.

GW leans so hard on its market position for leverage sometimes that should there ever come a time where this sector attracts attention from any sort of market disruptor it's going to have a real fight in its hands.

GW aren't a miniature paint company. Still, competing in that sector quite well.

If they sell paint, they're in the paint business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TL/DR

But does anyone else actually grasp how capitalism actually works?

They have something. We want it. ‘Fair’ doesn’t come into it. And their financials over the past couple years suggest those taking offence are very much pissing into the wind on this one.

Feeling fairly treated is very important to customers. Keeping customers is very important to a company's survival. If your customers feel ripped off they'll go else where and your company dies. That's capitalism.

GW's figures suggest that all the steps they've taken to build a relationship with their customers is working. It can stop working just as fast.

Being fair is absolutely a self serving, capitalist, motive.

Note I'm not predicting GW's doom, just taking issue with the fact that evil capitalist organizations somehow have no obligation to be fair with their customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
"They have high overheads" is categorically not an inherent defense for higher prices.

If you take a luxury car compared to a basic one, you can point to areas where the manufacturer has used more complex systems, higher quality materials, simply included more, to justify a price difference.

If you take two pots of acrylic paint, both comprised of a carrier and a pigment, and the only justification for one's higher price is "muh overhead" then what you have is a company that's managed itself into a situation where it can't compete.

GW leans so hard on its market position for leverage sometimes that should there ever come a time where this sector attracts attention from any sort of market disruptor it's going to have a real fight in its hands.

Exalted!

And it is hard to believe sometimes that this real, credible market disruptor hasn't shown up yet though!

I'm sure there's eyes on the whole situation. I'm not sure the market is there to attract a big player with deep pockets, but, ironically, GW's continued success may be exactly what convinces somebody to make a move.

The question still remains who and with what?

 Elbows wrote:
Mad Doc, in short...no, a lot of people don't.

Admittedly it's mostly younger people, but there is a large portion of the population who fervently believe that basic fundamental concepts in life shouldn't exist "because". That's actually how some minds works (at least temporarily, they normally snap out of it and eventually see common sense later).

Capitalism is just how those in power prefer to run society at this point in time, it's not some fundamental principle undepinning the universe

It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Price gouging? Sure it's a law of the universe

All praise the invisible hand! All praise the invisible hand!

edited by ingtaer.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company".

Whats unreasonable about this? Many times I find rules that I like but, for me, the miniatures that the same company makes or go with the boardgame are unapealing or outright ugly. Not always of course, and the inverse can also happen, like with Mierce, where I love their miniatures but Darkage is not something I like.

So play a set of game rules you like with Mierce miniatures?
Thanks. I think you verified my point for me.

Yeah thas exactly what I do. I also regularly use GW miniatures in other games.

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Price gouging? Sure it's a law of the universe

All praise the invisible hand! All praise the invisible hand!

Except none of us are actually HAPPY about it, we just accept that it’s going to happen. With cars, houses, GW, soda, etc. It always goes up. As much as I’m bummed about the price increases on SC boxes...they’re just going from a big discount to a slightly smaller discount. They’re still a discounted box from GW.

This thread cracks me up.

I recall buying Grenadier and Ral Partha miniatures ca. 1989 and thinking GW was hideously expensive in relation to other miniatures. Eventually I bought them anyway because they looked cool and were made well.

On a fundamental level, not much has changed since then.

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Price gouging? Sure it's a law of the universe

All praise the invisible hand! All praise the invisible hand!

Wow...brilliant addition to the conversation. Way to miss the point of anything said before you.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Price gouging? Sure it's a law of the universe

All praise the invisible hand! All praise the invisible hand!

Except none of us are actually HAPPY about it, we just accept that it’s going to happen. With cars, houses, GW, soda, etc. It always goes up. As much as I’m bummed about the price increases on SC boxes...they’re just going from a big discount to a slightly smaller discount. They’re still a discounted box from GW.

Of course, many of the SC boxes are a good deal because the aforementioned boxes are horribly overpriced to start with...

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Sorry for the off topic post, but the first sentence between really annoys me. The gap between the first Trade and the first use of Currency is how many years? The sentence is absurd, much like Achilles and his Gold.


Back on Topic.
Well, I have been meaning to get a Treeman for a while, so I used this as an excuse to order the Tree People Start Collecting.

There's this myth that wargaming is expensive. It's not. A friend of mine goes snowboarding every year. A single trip of his costs more than I spend on wargames stuff in a year. And that's one trip, I get to USE my games stuff forever if I so choose.
I saw someone make the assertion that having a classic car as a hobby was less expensive than wargaming. Please.
If i go to the cinema, it costs me £10 for say 2 hours. About £5 an hour.
If I buy a box of minis, let's say it costs me £30. It will take me say 2 hours to make them. Then maybe 10 hours + to paint them. Then I get to game with them. Even if you double that cost to add in stuff like paint, brushes etc, you're still getting a better return on your time/cost than going to the cinema.

Is GW expensive compared to other companies? Sure, but most of them don't have a single shop. None of them have shops up and down the country and all over the world.

I don't play much GW stuff, I mostly do historical and non GW skirmish games, but I can see why they cost what they do. GW have a lot more to worry about in terms of staff, buildings, and just general procedure than 99% of other producers.

If you don't like it, then don't pay it. Go to the second hand market to get your fix. You could also play a different game. And don't give me the old "people only play GW round here" shtick, buy into a new game with two forces and introduce people to it. If it doesn't take, oh well, try again until something you enjoy does. There's a whole wide world of gaming out there that doesn't involve GW in any shape or form. (Whisper: and a lot of them are far better games too...)

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
It's the reason there's the comments like "I'd like to try game XYZ, but I don't like the figures by the XYZ company".

Whats unreasonable about this? Many times I find rules that I like but, for me, the miniatures that the same company makes or go with the boardgame are unapealing or outright ugly. Not always of course, and the inverse can also happen, like with Mierce, where I love their miniatures but Darkage is not something I like.

So play a set of game rules you like with Mierce miniatures?
Thanks. I think you verified my point for me.

I thought you meant because GW have the physical presence and tend to snare interested parties first, that by the time they find out about other companies they're so used to GW models that most other things look off in some way and this discourages them from venturing away.

Christ on a Unicorn!

New terrain set is £37.50

Ouch. Might be a hard pass from me for once.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Sector-Imperialis-Manufactorum-2019

It seems like a lot of money for really not very much terrain at all! That's what one wall segment with a bit of a corner for a big chunk of money!

That does seem steep. I'd I've thought there would have been double that pictured amount for the price. An 'aesthetic link' isn't enough of a hook...

MarkNorfolk wrote:
That does seem steep. I'd I've thought there would have been double that pictured amount for the price. An 'aesthetic link' isn't enough of a hook...

Agreed, double the content and it would seem more fair at that price.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
That does seem steep. I'd I've thought there would have been double that pictured amount for the price. An 'aesthetic link' isn't enough of a hook...

The aesthetic link is probably exactly why they think they can get away with it. People have already invested in a collection of Imperialis and Mechanicus buildings, and isn't it convenient that you buy this box and tie both collections together? For a small fee, of course...

It's not like it does anything by itself. It's a wall. That's the only merit it has.

For 8 panels and change... seems broadly in line with the Sector Imperialis line outside bundles, and frankly, I consider the whole line unacceptably pricy outside bundles. That's why everybody was trying to get hold of the Kill Team starter, was it not?

 Overread wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
That does seem steep. I'd I've thought there would have been double that pictured amount for the price. An 'aesthetic link' isn't enough of a hook...

Agreed, double the content and it would seem more fair at that price.

Double the price and quadruple the content would be a prime candidate for a Christmas box.

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It actually is...ever since the first person traded things, and we started using currency. Supply and demand is an absolutely fundamental concept in any civilization.

Price gouging? Sure it's a law of the universe

GW have raised the prices of some items in line with the rate of inflation since the last time they raised the prices of those items some years ago. This is not price gouging. Get some perspective here people.