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Edited by ingtaer.

Rule #1 is be polite, I had posted a previous warning in thread.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Option 2: Lazy and annoying

Grey minis are a blight upon the hobby.

But what about grey painted modells?!?

Are you serious?

Deadly northern neighbour.

The term "deadly" makes no sense in this context.

Deadly serious or todernst....
Sarcasm and such things, but tbf you did not specify and made a general statement which promted me to pull your leg.

Fine. Tell me, which models of your collection have you painted predominantly grey?

My renegade and heretics, and my csm warband.

That fits the bill. Grey is such a depressing colour that would suit only the downtrodden which are desperate enough to ally themselves with the denizens of the warp.

I want to see progress over time. I don't expect a new player to hold off weeks or months to have a fully painted army before their first game. What I do expect is that week and months later that you have shown some progress.

Also it's not that hard to mass base minis. At least one color looks better than plain plastic.

 Stormatious wrote:


I guess tabletop standard is very very bad lol.

It's not very bad, it's just adequate. It looks ok from across the table, which is how you see models most of the time. It's not like you're blobbing on thick paint or having streaks of silver across a model's face because you were sloppy in painting the gun, you're just using the most basic techniques to get a model that is complete but not refined. It's a perfectly fine standard if you just want to complete your gaming pieces and get them on the table. Anything above that standard is going to mean investing more work and skill to get something that looks good when examined in detail.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, let's not pretend that painting is difficult. 99.9% of people are capable of doing a clean base coat + wash, and maybe some drybrushed highlights. The vast majority of people with unpainted armies don't have any disability that would prevent them from painting, they're just lazy.

I cant believe you just said that... Its hard..... trying to learn how to do all these different techniques, applying perfect width edge highlights, learning how to simply use the brush and paint strokes properly.... dude what are you talking about, learning how to focus and control your brush i mean ...

Even things like edge highlighting are not "difficult", they're just not necessarily intuitive. It does take some degree of motor control, but it's very simple in practice, as you're just tracing lines (and you don't even have to do that perfectly, you just have to not apply so much pressure that you end up hitting the wrong part of the model).

Painting miniatures decently comes down to a few main concepts:

Paint consistency: how much should you thin your paints for your desired level of flow and opacity?

Brush positioning: how should you hold your brush in relation to the surface you're painting, and in which direction should you begin and end your stroke?

Pressure: how much pressure should you apply in order to control the thickness of your line?

Someone who has no idea what they're doing is going to mess up all of those things and never know what they're doing wrong unless they experiment enough to find out on their own, yet once you are thinking along those lines all you have to do is make small adjustments in each of those three areas to achieve your desired effect. Then it's all about developing your own system to make your process more efficient.

In my experience many people often won't work out what is going wrong or it will take them a very long time. They might not even realise your 3 basic principle areas to work with. They might overcomplicate things or think that its all about using higher grade tools (yes that does help but its no replacement for practice and skill); or even some mystical magical art.
Guided learning helps immensley. It speeds things up, it introduces concepts and ideas people might never have got on their own and it also helps with a lot of the little things that might even go unsaid in books or videos.

In general my point is if you've got painting skills and you've got those at your club with unpainted models and you know they can't paint - then the best you can do is help them along.

That fits the bill. Grey is such a depressing colour that would suit only the downtrodden which are desperate enough to ally themselves with the denizens of the warp.

Filthy imperial, do we need to burn down the southern realm again like 1499, you corpse copulating plebian!!!

(historic joke is historical, i'd never burn down someones house, only loot his food supply!)

Edit: tbf the choice was made since it Highlights well with Red, and I like khorne, and secondly it's forgiving so that i am actually fairly content with the look. And as Strg Alt pointed out, fits the bill nicely for Chaos cannonfodder.

edited by ingtaer

Rule #1 is be polite. If you cannot do so then remove yourself from this thread. Any more violations will earn their poster a warning and this thread will be locked.

Thanks,
ingtaer

 Overread wrote:


In my experience many people often won't work out what is going wrong or it will take them a very long time. They might not even realise your 3 basic principle areas to work with. They might overcomplicate things or think that its all about using higher grade tools (yes that does help but its no replacement for practice and skill); or even some mystical magical art.
Guided learning helps immensley. It speeds things up, it introduces concepts and ideas people might never have got on their own and it also helps with a lot of the little things that might even go unsaid in books or videos.

In general my point is if you've got painting skills and you've got those at your club with unpainted models and you know they can't paint - then the best you can do is help them along.

Totally agree with you, that is my main point as well. Most people who are new to painting or are daunted by it just don't know how simple it really is (if also tedious), and that's what they need help to understand.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also I disagree everyone can do something passable just because they're passionate to learn it. King Of The Hill had a good example of this with the character Dale not being good at basket weaving.

You do realise that it is fiction? As noted, achieving the tabletop standard is not particularly hard, anyone who doesn't have some sort of disability can definitely learn it, and with tutorials pretty fast too. (Basket weawing is probably more difficult, but with enough practice pretty much anyone could learn it too.)



Also, between my replies to this topic I applied the base armour colour and wash for twelve marines.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also I disagree everyone can do something passable just because they're passionate to learn it. King Of The Hill had a good example of this with the character Dale not being good at basket weaving.

You do realise that it is fiction? As noted, achieving the tabletop standard is not particularly hard, anyone who doesn't have some sort of disability can definitely learn it, and with tutorials pretty fast too. (Basket weawing is probably more difficult, but with enough practice pretty much anyone could learn it too.)



Also, between my replies to this topic I applied the base armour colour and wash for twelve marines.

Remember that tabletop standard is a very broad definition as some one has mentioned already. So hard to say

bananathug wrote:I like to see progress. If you show up to a game with a horde of grey but next month you have a unit or a couple pieces painted that's awesome. If it's still just the same horde of grey then I will silently judge you.

I'm always adding new stuff to my army so I usually have a handful of unpainted units. I like to try them out in a game before I commit the hours (I'm a horrible and slow painter) that I need to get them into table top shape. I still haven't based over 90% of my new additions yet (working on getting something competitive painted and then I'll actually base the models that don't get blown off the table by turn 3...) and I'm sure that bothers some people.

On the other hand I have no problem playing against proxies or counts as (as long as they are clear and about the same size) as long as it's not the fourth month you are still pulling out your counts as reapers.

I really like the spectacle of fully painted armies clashing for supremacy on a scenic battlefield. Personally I don't care if your stuff is as painted as mine, matter of fact, I dont expect it. If someone wants to play with bare plastic, fine. as long as it is made clear what has what, big deal. While I would enthusiastically jump at the chance to play against an army as painted as mine(our flgs has a ton of nice terrain), I definitely would not turn someone away because of it. Someone who belittles another's painting(or lack thereof) is an donkey-cave and doesnt deserve your time.

Bringing unpainted models gets you disqualified so i don't really worry about it. Haven't seen unpainted in a really long time because of this.

It's pretty easy to get a unit done, if you're starting out. Take Ultra Marines...

1) Buy a rattle can of Macragge Blue. Check out a 2 min vid on how to use a rattle can (distance from model, ventilation, etc.)

2) Spray 10 models blue.

3) Apply Drakenhof wash.

4) Watch video on dry brushing, dry brush macragge blue back on, leaving recessed areas shaded.

5) dry brush on, in much lesser amounts, a lighter blue on edges and raised areas.

6) Paint trim gold, have a damp brush ready as you go to wipe off inevitable slips over onto the blue. Do the same for the boltgun with black. (Or go grey and wash with nuln oil for more definition)

7) Rattle can some testor dull coat varnish onto your unit to protect them.

8) Slap your choice of texture paint onto the base, and then spot with a detail of you fancy - skulls, spent ammo, grass, etc. Paint base edge black.

After this you can do some more detail if you want - make seargents stand out, apply some decals, etc. - but you're done. Your guys look really solid, and you didn't need to do much careful brushwork - the shoulder pad edges were probably the trickiest part. You can get all this done in a day, absolutley no problem, while listening to a batrep, audiobook, comedy, music, whatever, and have a great team read to show for it too. What's stopping you? Two Intecessor squads ready to go...

 skchsan wrote:
Why would you NOT want to paint your mini's? It's literally 99% of the hobby.

Well.... Honestly I just don't enjoy painting. Never have. Playing: 110%, modeling/assembling/converting: 100%, Painting: 2%?
But over the years, other than base coats/the occasional one-off (say about 1 model/month), it's been observed that I tend to paint when I'm depressed, when something's majorly wrong, or I'm really stressed. If I'm seen painting more than 3 models my GF asks what's wrong (if she doesn't already know).
I got quite a bit painted the other year when Dad was in hospice.

So if I'm not painting? Everything is pretty good.

My happiness > yours.

And if you have an issue with my unpainted stuff? We'll work out a price & you can paint it.

*For the record I DO have at least 1 fully painted army for any game I play. Often several. So in the event that I find myself in a tourney or playing at a gaming convention or such, you won't be seeing my WiP.

edited by ingtaer.

The GW store in Warhammer world, has all of its cases filled with unpainted built minis... There is an odd beauty in its purity and simplicity, and the actual quality of the model in my mind was magnified by their lack of paint. I found myself thinking that armies and games could look really wonderful on a board, just as they are.

In general I don't paint a lot, but when I do, I enjoy painting. I would rather play an entirely grey army than one thats a mess of semi painted stuff, or stuff that has been painted to a minimum standard to meet some event (which Im often guilty of).

People are allowed to enjoy the hobby as much as they want to in it's different aspects. If you want to judge people for how they prioritize differently from you, that's own prerogative and right. If you don't want to play armies that aren't painted because you have a desire for a more immersive experience, good for you. If you don't want to paint your army, good for you. Politely decline and talk about something else. Be adults, there is a line that must be respected.

"This hobby is about doing what I say it's about doing"

"Its just a joke"

"If they wanted to just play a game they should play something else"

"It's ok because it's promoting the hobby"

"It's only one comment now and then"

"That's how the game is supposed to be played"

"They're lazy so it's ok"

"They should expect to get treated badly"

I can't believe adults still use these kinds of crappy rationalizations. But TFGs never see themselves as TFGs, especially the "hobby side" TFG. The gatekeepers of the truly righteous hobby path that they have declared themselves to be. When in reality, one person's constant "encouragement" is really more like borderline (and sometimes clearly) harassment.

If you're repeatedly ostracizing or proselytizing to people over and over who do not return or engage your continued comments, quips, jokes, offers of help, etc, that's what it's called even if you're being polite about it. We never think of ourselves as a bully, but it happens more than we realize when we get passionate about something and try to act in good intention; even among good acquaintances and even friends sometimes. This happens because it's the reality of human interaction. We don't want to make a fuss or a scene, especially as a new person in a new environment even if it makes us uncomfortable or don't want to be treated that way. We look past certain things we don't like in our friends and loved ones because ultimately, being "good-natured but inappropriately overzealous" about a hobby doesn't make someone a bad person in the grand scale, either.

Be good to each other. It's fine to encourage people or offer help; but if people don't wish to reciprocate, it isn't appropriate to keep at them.

Ultimately I play wargames for the spectacle and I don't particularly enjoy playing with or against unpainted armies. However, I won't decline games with a guy with unpainted models as long as they are at least assembled. Minimum effort there. I just won't enjoy the game as much as if they were fully painted.

Besides which, painting models is like 90% of the hobby for me.

I prefer to play agaisnt painted models but I'm too lazy to paint anything.

I have 0 excuses. I love building models, the customization, and playing the game not because of the game but because the social event that it is.
But I hate painting.

The only painted army I have is my dark angels army that I painted in a marathon of 15 hours of painting the day before a Tournament I and my friends where inscribed 5 months before. I painted them with the 3 basic colours+base with a little of sand and dirt and the random skull and decoration.

I can go back to them and paint them properly. They are not badly painted just very basic colours.

I just don't have any kind of personal discipline to force me to paint until the last moment and when I have a big enough commitment.

I really, really don't care.

I've only ever seen one store which demanded fully painted armies in order to let you play there. Despite having a fully painted army, I never went back. It just seemed like a really awful attitude to put out there. (Which is separate from a "these tables up front are our display tables; fully painted armies only on them, please" policy, btw--I understand some folks got a business to run.)

I'd much rather play against someone who's friendly, passionate about the game, and creative in their list designs than play against a fully painted army.

My store has only fully painted minis displayed. Its not a awful attitude its part of the hobby/game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
modeling and 40k go hand in hand

My preference is that you spend the time to put color on your models or pay someone to do so. Grey models defeat the purpose of one of the only things that is left in 40k that interests me - the fluff and appearance of the game.

However that being said most of the people I know never paint or rarely paint. So I just have to deal with that.

edied

grouchoben wrote:It's pretty easy to get a unit done, if you're starting out.

It's pretty easy for you.

Many of the rest of us struggle mightily with motivation, or with having free time, or having space, or having adequate lighting, or any one of a hundred other perfectly legitimate reasons.

Yeah its not easy at all takes i imagine years to become good

I prefer painted armies. However, I prefer modeling and converting over painting, I'm a slow painter, and I have trouble focusing on one project.

So my armies have varying levels of grey in them.

All I demand from myself and my regular opponents is that progress is made. If I play the same army twice against you, it will be more complete the 2nd time. Same for my opponents. All grey for the first game or two? Ok. Primed a squad for our 3rd game? good enough.

The only paint concession that I absolutely insist on is for all plastic multi-detachments. If you're running two guard detachments in all grey cadians, but one is actually tallarn, I'll ask you to mark one detachment. I'll even hand you the paint pen to do it. Just an easily visible colored dot or line. Which is something I hold myself to as well.

 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah its not easy at all takes i imagine years to become good

No, not easy at all, and you're always learning more. Been painting models of some sort since I've been 10 or so, I'm 48 now and I still can't paint nearly as well as I wish I could. Watching my son try to paint makes me cringe, I usually feel sorry enough for him that I take over for him - he likes "chaosifying" his models, but he absolutely hates painting (more than I do).

I'll never begrudge someone who doesn't paint their models, and it really ruffles my feathers when someone tries to insist "you have to do it" - for their enjoyment.

People don't start with a fully painted army. It takes time and effort to build and paint.

There's no way I'm talking down or mocking someone who hasn't put brush to model yet.

If there's someone who keeps gray plastic for a LONG time I might offer them some painting advice / lessons to help them along, especially newer players who are scared of 'messing up" their models.

Some people just don't like painting. I'm not turning them down. I'm still going to play the game and have a blast.

I'd rather play against a grey tide with an opponent who is a good sport and having fun than play against a fully painted army with someone who has a miserable attitude.

You should at least spray/undercoat and slap on a wash. That takes 5 minutes per model. Playing with unfinished models is fine IMO, but playing with models you haven't even started is kinda lame.