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Do you find unpainted minis in matches acceptable?
Yes its acceptable, if people cant be bothered painting then who cares
No its unacceptable they are lazy and are annoying
I prefer people have fully painted minis, but dont really care.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Personally I have the issue that I can get a unit to "assembled and primered" in a day, but painting that same unit will take me a week or two. I'm not a fast painter and I didn't pick a scheme that would be easy. I can hardly hold anyone else's unpainted minis against them when my percentage of finished units is so low.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Aelyn wrote:
I have, repeatedly. But that's incidental; it's interesting that you refuse to even accept my opinion and preference as valid.


I don't accept it because it's ridiculous. It is extremely easy to paint to a standard that is better than bare plastic, maybe your community has an unusually high number of small children pouring buckets of paint on their models but I don't think that's at all representative of 40k in general.

I have already lost the passion for an army that cost me hundreds of pounds as a direct result of the obligation to paint it to a tournament-legal level leading to the paintjob being, in my mind, substandard. I kept playing with it for several months, even trying to touch up and improve the paint scheme to a level I found acceptable, but it was too late; I associated that army with an unpleasant experience, and enjoyed games noticeably less as a result from that point on.


Again, that's not how it works most of the time. The vast majority of people with unpainted armies don't have them because they're great painters and unwilling to compromise on quality to get stuff on the table faster, they're people who reject the idea of painting entirely. Just look at this thread, lots of people talking about how painting shouldn't be necessary or how they don't paint their armies, not many people with galleries full of nicely painted miniatures asking for some patience as they finish their latest masterpiece.

(And really, if you're so no-compromises on quality how are you putting unpainted models on the table when painting to an above-tabletop level usually requires painting before final assembly? Are you playing with unassembled models as well?)

You think four to six hours is enough to paint an army, even to basic tabletop standard? I guess it might just about be possible to paint a 1000 point Necron army in that timeframe...


Spray with colored primer, spend a couple hours doing a base coat on the guns/shoulder pads/whatever that needs to be a secondary color, and throw a black wash on it. Yeah, I think 6-12 hours (1-2 games worth of time) is enough to paint a pretty large amount of stuff to that level if you assembly line it efficiently.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





@Peregrine

Prove it.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Prove what?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Literally anything you've been saying in this thread.

If what you claim is objectively true, then you can prove it.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Sure, just as soon as you buy an army and all of the supplies required, assemble everything, send me the models, and pay me my hourly rate for the labor I'll prove that tabletop standard is that easy. I don't paint to tabletop standard with my own models, so I'm sure as hell not wasting my own stuff to win a forum argument.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oh no, I'm sure you can fund your own proof.

After all, it's on you to prove you're objectively correct.

But out of a sense of fair play, let's nix that one.

Find me several pictures and videos that objectively show that even the worst painted model is still better than the average unpainted one.
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum









Please cut out the sniping, its fast getting this thread nowhere and thus locked.

Thanks,
ingtaer

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 skchsan wrote:
Reemule wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Why would you NOT want to paint your mini's? It's literally 99% of the hobby.

Why not just play a computer game if you want to play RTS without being invested in your models?


Um painting is like 10%, and I might be generous with that.

Playing the game is about competitiveness, strategy, game play, comradeship, developing an understanding of mathematics, then maybe distant way over there after army creation is Painting.


You misunderstand - assembling and painting is 99% of the HOBBY that is 40k.
Playing a game of 40k is like having a cake and eating it too.


No you misunderstand. Playing is 90% of the hobby. Building, and painting is like unboxing. A necessary chore. But certainly not the point.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






BTW, about the noobs. I think at least initially most people are drawn in to this hobby by the visuals; they see the pictures of resplended armies fighting in the magazine or on the internet and want to experience something similar. So if when they go to their local store and see legions unpaited models battling over lumps of styrofoam the are likely to lose interest.

I certainly do not expect new people to instantly paint 2000 points, but I will gladly play smaller games. If all you have painted is 500 points, then I rather play a 500 point game than a bigger game invilving unpainted models. I will of course gladly offer painting advice as well.

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Which is a totally fair thing to do.
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





Then why enforce playing with models at all, if playing is a separate part of the hobby? Why not use paper cutouts (so you can draw LOS) on bases and save a lot of money?


I did. It was the old Ork Dreadnought in 2nd edition. Paper cutout and all. We also didn't get much Warhammer into Iceland due to lead in toys being forbidden so proxying was a thing. I also don't enforce anything. I have played ton of games against(and with) proxies and enjoyed those games. I buy the models and bases because I do like assembling and painting them eventually and putting them into a glass display. Two hobbies remember.

Painting to a basic tabletop standard takes negligible skill and a small amount of time. Skip a game or two and you can paint your entire army.


Because of the exact reason I mentioned before. I take these as two hobbies and I do enjoy painting and I sometimes spend inordinate amount of time on a single figure. For me painting your supposed tabletop standard is throwing money away on models that I would love to also paint.
   
Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker




UK

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top


Actually, when i first started i tried painting a couple SM tacs, and they turned out terrible, so i followed most of the steps from a tutorial on warhammer tv and it came out surprisingly good. It was what encouraged me to get behind the painting aspect of the hobby properly. Dont get me wrong, they are hardly EavyMetal standards, but decent enough for me to be like, "dude! look at these fellas i painted up!". Now i have my own variation of a painting procedure that doesnt take too much time and produces fairly decent tabletop quality im happy with.

I actually think if more people just tried to follow these tutorials that like Duncan does it would get more people painting as it would surprise them how easy it is to get a averagely decent looking model [which i would call tabletop ready]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 grouchoben wrote:
It's pretty easy to get a unit done, if you're starting out. Take Ultra Marines...

1) Buy a rattle can of Macragge Blue. Check out a 2 min vid on how to use a rattle can (distance from model, ventilation, etc.)

2) Spray 10 models blue.

3) Apply Drakenhof wash.

4) Watch video on dry brushing, dry brush macragge blue back on, leaving recessed areas shaded.

5) dry brush on, in much lesser amounts, a lighter blue on edges and raised areas.

6) Paint trim gold, have a damp brush ready as you go to wipe off inevitable slips over onto the blue. Do the same for the boltgun with black. (Or go grey and wash with nuln oil for more definition)

7) Rattle can some testor dull coat varnish onto your unit to protect them.

8) Slap your choice of texture paint onto the base, and then spot with a detail of you fancy - skulls, spent ammo, grass, etc. Paint base edge black.

After this you can do some more detail if you want - make seargents stand out, apply some decals, etc. - but you're done. Your guys look really solid, and you didn't need to do much careful brushwork - the shoulder pad edges were probably the trickiest part. You can get all this done in a day, absolutley no problem, while listening to a batrep, audiobook, comedy, music, whatever, and have a great team read to show for it too. What's stopping you? Two Intecessor squads ready to go...


Exactly this! (Y)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 14:36:48


======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
DR:90S++GM-B+IPw40k16#+DA++/sWDR++T(T)DM+
======End Dakka Geek Code====== 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 Peregrine wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
I have, repeatedly. But that's incidental; it's interesting that you refuse to even accept my opinion and preference as valid.


I don't accept it because it's ridiculous. It is extremely easy to paint to a standard that is better than bare plastic, maybe your community has an unusually high number of small children pouring buckets of paint on their models but I don't think that's at all representative of 40k in general.

Dude. This is totally uncalled for. You may not agree with my position, but claiming it's ridiculous is another matter.

Besides, it's a strawman; you're mischaracterising me as saying that unpainted models look better than TTQ. Sometimes they do, normally they don't (they normally look... about as good to me, maybe a touch better.) I would prefer to play with unpainted models and do a good job of them later than to play with bare-bones TTQ.

If you can't even comprehend the idea that someone else has different preferences or experiences to you, maybe you shouldn't argue so vehemently about what is ultimately a subjective subject.

EDIT: I've realised you may have misunderstood my position. I personally don't like painting my army to "only" tournament-defined TTQ, and therefore object to playing that as my army; I have no objection to playing against them.
 Peregrine wrote:
I have already lost the passion for an army that cost me hundreds of pounds as a direct result of the obligation to paint it to a tournament-legal level leading to the paintjob being, in my mind, substandard. I kept playing with it for several months, even trying to touch up and improve the paint scheme to a level I found acceptable, but it was too late; I associated that army with an unpleasant experience, and enjoyed games noticeably less as a result from that point on.


Again, that's not how it works most of the time. The vast majority of people with unpainted armies don't have them because they're great painters and unwilling to compromise on quality to get stuff on the table faster, they're people who reject the idea of painting entirely. Just look at this thread, lots of people talking about how painting shouldn't be necessary or how they don't paint their armies, not many people with galleries full of nicely painted miniatures asking for some patience as they finish their latest masterpiece.

(And really, if you're so no-compromises on quality how are you putting unpainted models on the table when painting to an above-tabletop level usually requires painting before final assembly? Are you playing with unassembled models as well?)

So because my position is unusual, it's invalid?

And there is a wide spectrum between "acceptable tabletop quality for tournaments" and "impossible to paint while assembled". My best work - the models I display with pride in my cabinet - often do require sub-assemblies. My personal bar to be happy with the models does not, except in extremely rare circumstances. Both are far above tournament-standard "tabletop" quality.
 Peregrine wrote:

You think four to six hours is enough to paint an army, even to basic tabletop standard? I guess it might just about be possible to paint a 1000 point Necron army in that timeframe...


Spray with colored primer, spend a couple hours doing a base coat on the guns/shoulder pads/whatever that needs to be a secondary color, and throw a black wash on it. Yeah, I think 6-12 hours (1-2 games worth of time) is enough to paint a pretty large amount of stuff to that level if you assembly line it efficiently.

It takes you 6 hours to play a single game? Also I seriously doubt that's possible for 50ish models in a 6-hour block, taking into account drying time for the sprays and washes, without it looking absolute gak. Plus the job you described is only absolute borderline minimum tabletop quality, if even that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 15:00:15


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:

Do you apply the same standard and insist that it's wrong to hold everyone to the standard of "bring your codex/dice/etc to the game", and object equally if someone was unwilling to let their opponent play from memory because they refuse to bring their rules?


The core rules outright state you need the rules, models, codex, dice, and measuring tape to play. This isn't anywhere near an equitable comparison.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I try to make sure my units are at least primed before they see the table. I don't like to field unpainted models, and if I can, i'll remove unpainted models as casualties first.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





I look down upon it, but it's like every opponent in my area so feth it I just gotta hold that

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I try to make sure my units are at least primed before they see the table.


See, depending on the colour of the primer, I might actually prefer to play against grey plastic than models that have just been primed.

The reason is that when models are primed in black (or a similarly dark colour), it becomes very difficult to see any details - especially from the other side of the table.

Grey plastic may not be pretty, but it's a hell of a lot easier to pick out details on those models than on ones covered in dark primer.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 vipoid wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I try to make sure my units are at least primed before they see the table.


See, depending on the colour of the primer, I might actually prefer to play against grey plastic than models that have just been primed.

The reason is that when models are primed in black (or a similarly dark colour), it becomes very difficult to see any details - especially from the other side of the table.

Grey plastic may not be pretty, but it's a hell of a lot easier to pick out details on those models than on ones covered in dark primer.


Lol, very true, however my primary army is Necrons...and silver...well...yeah....lol.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





I will play grey plastic or unfinished armies but I much prefer painted. Most members of my local gaming group have whole basements full of grey plastic armies because they are victims of "apocalypse" games in previous editions or generally not fancy the painting that much.
I can understand how it's hard for them to start painting because there is no hope to finish all of that stuff in a lifetime but to be honest it's their own fault and no excuse in my opinion.

To give them (and myself some extra) motivation, I suggested playing tournaments of increasing scope (500pts, 750pts, ...) with mandatory fully painted models.
Worked out pretty well, we got to play 4 tournaments in 2018, everyone has at least 1500pts fully painted by now and casual / bigger games in between can still be used to playtest new or unfinished units.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 16:10:35


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Honestly the only good thing about people not painting their models is that I can buy them on ebay and have fresh plastic to work with
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






 SHUPPET wrote:
I look down upon it, but it's like every opponent in my area so feth it I just gotta hold that


Yep... I wish I had the option to at least strongly suggest that long-time members of the hobby make an effort in painting their armies instead of starting yet another new one... But it's a very small group of people that are all older than me. So I must silently judge, and hope that new-comers to the group have the motivation to put a bit of colour on their space marines/sigmarines.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





My experience locally as well as elsewhere is that if fully-painted armies was a requirement for every single match then there wouldn't be a hobby to join. There is such a beautifully varied and diverse group that plays Games Workshop games all with different desires and wants and often valid reasons why they don't have time to paint their army yet. Which is why I have such a live and let live attitude towards the entire thing. I mean, gatekeeping will just push them to other games which will make us all poorer in the long run. „Henda krónunni til að spara aurinn” as we say back here.

Not to say it isn't more entertaining to play with fully painted armies.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cynista wrote:
Honestly the only good thing about people not painting their models is that I can buy them on ebay and have fresh plastic to work with


Can't disagree there. Although there is something very enjoyable about taking a badly painted army, painting over it, and making it look better. As long as the paint isn't too thick.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 16:00:30


 
   
Made in ca
Speed Drybrushing





t.dot

Thadin wrote:Tabletop Standard is a rather vague term, and it's specific definition may vary from person to person. Your Tabletop Standard, the basic that you paint to, may be better or worse than my own Tabletop Standard. But either way, it's enough to look good on the tabletop from a distance. It's different from how you'll paint your special characters and cool special dudes that you want to put more effort and actual technique in to, typically. Again, it differs from person to person.


Yeeup.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
People are allowed to enjoy the hobby as much as they want to in it's different aspects. If you want to judge people for how they prioritize differently from you, that's own prerogative and right. If you don't want to play armies that aren't painted because you have a desire for a more immersive experience, good for you. If you don't want to paint your army, good for you. Politely decline and talk about something else. Be adults, there is a line that must be respected.


I'm always surprised that it's always an either-or, but you're right. Everybody has their own priorities and reasons, and regardless of whether we think they're valid or not, what matters is that it's valid to them.

JohnnyHell wrote:Everyone should stop telling each other how they’re allowed to have fun. ;-)


You're not my supervisor!

Aelyn wrote:
You think four to six hours is enough to paint an army, even to basic tabletop standard? I guess it might just about be possible to paint a 1000 point Necron army in that timeframe...


Oh man, I wish it took me 4-6 hours to paint 1000 points of Necrons. I might be able to get 50 points done reasonably in that time frame... maybe.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Here is what I think this conversation should be.

I want people who put an effort into the game. I want to play people that want to play as much as I do, or more. I want them to want to play a better stronger game, and to learn and be effective, and who have shown a desire to have painted miniatures.
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

I'm of the opinion that you should play with fully painted armies. Case in point:
I recently attended an Age of Sigmar 2,000 point tournament with no painting requirement. I had 2,000 points of fully painted Iron Jawz. One of my opponents had Daughters of Khane. His army was about 50/50 glued and blu-tack. All the smaller models were glued, but all the characters, his cauldron, and the larger, more complex models were blu-tack'ed "so I can paint them later". My reply: "Maybe you should have painted them before the tournament?" As an aside, he was a total WAAC and cheater on top of that.

I realize not everyone has the talent, or that painting may be difficult for a variety of reasons. But painting is a part of this game, and it's kind of a slap to the face when I have a fully painted army, and my opponent shows up with a grey plastic army, and 50% of it is held together with blu-tack. I'd never show up to a GW tournament with an army like that.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






While I understand the "I don't want to paint because I don't find it enjoyable" sentiments, and I am not enforcing or forcing 'you have to paint it or don't play the game' policy upon anyone, but I have to ask why exactly you're interested in 40k at all?

Let's face it - 40k does not support or sport a very good game system/mechanics, and there are better miniature based wargames out there most of which forego great models for great system.

What really draws/drew people into 40k is the modelling and painting aspect of the kits because 40k has one of the best line of miniatures, and it just happens so that there are loose set of rules where you can play with your little figurines.

I just feel like, and this is purely my opinion which you are more than welcomed to disagree with, painting and modelling is one of the biggest parts of the hobby and I just don't seem to understand the 0/100 painting/gaming camp's attraction to the game. What exactly is it that draws you into the hobby if you don't like the hands on aspect of it?
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sometimes it's the only game in town.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I would find that strange, that you would buy in to a miniature came because it's the only one in town to play, instead of buying in to a miniature game for the lore, for the gameplay or for the entire modelling package.

"You" used in an unspecific manner, not directed at anyone in particular.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

 Tamwulf wrote:
I'm of the opinion that you should play with fully painted armies. Case in point:
I recently attended an Age of Sigmar 2,000 point tournament with no painting requirement. I had 2,000 points of fully painted Iron Jawz. One of my opponents had Daughters of Khane. His army was about 50/50 glued and blu-tack. All the smaller models were glued, but all the characters, his cauldron, and the larger, more complex models were blu-tack'ed "so I can paint them later".

There is a difference between unpainted and unbuilt.

 Tamwulf wrote:

As an aside, he was a total WAAC and cheater on top of that.

Irrelevent to this discussion.

 Tamwulf wrote:

I realize not everyone has the talent, or that painting may be difficult for a variety of reasons. But painting is a part of this game, and it's kind of a slap to the face when I have a fully painted army, and my opponent shows up with a grey plastic army, and 50% of it is held together with blu-tack. I'd never show up to a GW tournament with an army like that.

It is a tournament with no paint requirement there was always going to be at least 1 unpainted army, if you dont want to face it don't attend that event.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
 
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