Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

I'm thinking those are 'sniper rifles' and not bolters, so maybe they will work like "Sniper Rifles with SIA" rather than having their own variety.

I think you're right. Though I hope these guys can deal with HQs with higher than T3 though

 Kanluwen wrote:
And here's where I think the problem lies. You're thinking of this as a Dark Imperium analogue--it's not. I really don't expect there to be ETB kits releasing alongside of it.

I wasn't really thinking of it as a analogue starter kit, but just using the similarities between models in DI and the ETB as precedence.
If Shadow Spear only contains 3 Eliminators, then I would expect those same CAD sculpts to be the ETB Eliminators, if they have them at all.

The same could be true for the Chaos Marines. The 3 previewed could be used for the (hopefully inevitable) ETB set, with any other Chaos Marines, such as a Melta carrier, being exclusive to the Shadow Spear or eventual updated Chaos Marine full kit.

At any rate, I will only be getting the Eliminators if they are ETB and units of 3. If they end up being units of 5 minimum, I'll pass

-

Good catch on the Lieutenant's icon--the most interesting part is that I don't see anyone else with the 'vanes' from Grav-Chutes other than him! He also doesn't have the 'antennae' that the other infantry have.
Same with clocking the Eliminator up above 'Telion'.

I wonder if maybe these guys will have some kind of 'sabotage' ability like Lias Issodon used to have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And here's where I think the problem lies. You're thinking of this as a Dark Imperium analogue--it's not. I really don't expect there to be ETB kits releasing alongside of it.

I wasn't really thinking of it as a analogue starter kit, but just using the similarities between models in DI and the ETB as precedence.
If Shadow Spear only contains 3 Eliminators, then I would expect those same CAD sculpts to be the ETB Eliminators, if they have them at all.

The same could be true for the Chaos Marines. The 3 previewed could be used for the (hopefully inevitable) ETB set, with any other Chaos Marines, such as a Melta carrier, being exclusive to the Shadow Spear or eventual updated Chaos Marine full kit.

At any rate, I will only be getting the Eliminators if they are ETB and units of 3. If they end up being units of 5 minimum, I'll pass
-

But WHY would you expect any of this?

They flatout clocked it as full kits from the outset. They're not ETBs.

A deep striking Lieutenant would be quite welcome for Successor Chapter armies that are 100% Primaris for fluff reasons so those Grave-Chute vanes give me hope.

Since they specifically said "Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead," all of which are 100% full kit releases, I was surprised when people here said they thought these would be easy to build kits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

But WHY would you expect any of this?

I only expect it for the Chaos Marines. It's getting tiresome that all the awesome new CSM are in large boxes and not in a kit of their own. So for sure they need a full kit, but than the ETB needs to be updated accordingly. It would be weird to have these new scale Marines that look very different to the Chaos ETB Marines around at the same time.

I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

-

yeah I don't expect these to be ETB unless they come with an updated rulebook. What people are forgetting about the recent AoS release is that it coincided with 2nd Edition release, and came with a rulebook.

This just seems like a really nice battle box. Can't wait to see the rest of the models!

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Sterling191 wrote:
Teaser fluff aint rules.

Occam's Razor.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

No one said anything about actual rules. This is all we currently have. You can assume as much as you want from it or you can ignore it completely if that suits you better.

 Darkseid wrote:
Why do some players want Oldmarines to be gone so badly?

Given the different aesthetics and battlefield roles, I think there is space for both Oldmarines and Primaris to co-exist.

The whole debate sounds more like a case of 'I told you that evil GeeDubz is screwing you over', than actually support for either of the marines.

I think in a lot of cases it's less "I want old marines to go away" and more "if old marines are going away I want to know it sooner rather than later" or failing that "I want to know that when old marines go away I'll still be able to use my Landraiders/Predators/Storm Ravens".

Blastaar wrote:

Voss wrote:
Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

Yes, they are. Anything purchased that then just sits around in one's home or garage is a waste of natural resources that were not put to any purpose. Not to preach, but all humans must dramatically reduce their consumption. Recycling doesn't solve everything, either. The process still requires energy, does not have a %100 conversion rate from used plastic to a new product, and can only be done so many times before the plastic has to be thrown away.

The purpose is to look nice. You think I'm ever going to play with the Gundam models I built? Nope.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Then they are a hard pass for me. If I want 5-man SM snipers, I'll get Scouts. The box is undoubtedly cheaper than whatever price 5 Primaris will be.

-

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

And yet reivers were called terror troops and have a rule that affects morale....

Hope they are not better than Vindicare's or they boost them in the new mini dex.

On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

 Mr Morden wrote:
Hope they are not better than Vindicare's or they boost them in the new mini dex.

I know this probably ain't the place to ask, but do we actually know anything about this mini-dex yet?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

Needle sniper rifles still exist (such as the Ratling snipers IIRC), but some are definitely not, like the long-las used by most Imperial Guard snipers.

Space Marine Scout snipers appear to be a laser weapon of some kind too, although they may be a needle rifle. Obviously Stalker snipers are bolt weapons.

In the far future, there are many forms of sniper

 Haighus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

Needle sniper rifles still exist (such as the Ratling snipers IIRC), but some are definitely not, like the long-las used by most Imperial Guard snipers.

Space Marine Scout snipers appear to be a laser weapon of some kind too, although they may be a needle rifle. Obviously Stalker snipers are bolt weapons.

In the far future, there are many forms of sniper

Needle sniper rifles actually used a laser to punch small holes in armor and then project the toxins. Used by Eldar, Marines, and Ratlings according to the 2nd ed wargear book.

 Nevelon wrote:


Needle sniper rifles actually used a laser to punch small holes in armor and then project the toxins. Used by Eldar, Marines, and Ratlings according to the 2nd ed wargear book.

Which is why I thought the Marine snipers may be needle rifles- they have a power feed, but no obvious ammo feed. However, the power feed may be powering the laser part of a needle rifle, rather than a pure laser, and the needle ammo feed may just be subtle or something. IG uses long-lases, which are definitely pure laser- they are modified lasguns- excepting Ratlings, who don't use the long-las- their rifles are definitely needle rifles.

Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

If I was a betting man, I’d guess Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

That is rampant speculation based on nothing but the twisted ravings of the voices in my head. YMMV. Don’t quote me on that (unless I’m right, of course )

 Galef wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Then they are a hard pass for me. If I want 5-man SM snipers, I'll get Scouts. The box is undoubtedly cheaper than whatever price 5 Primaris will be.

-

So far GW's been pretty good about giving us new units that occupy a similer niche to old marines well not outright replacing the old units. I expect this will continue and the primaris snipers will fill a similer niche to scout snipers well having their own place as well. that said there's been demand for power armor snipers for awhile so..

as for damage I'm expecting them to be Stalker bolt rifles with specialty ammo. this is the minimum, and might be alright depending on the speciality ammo and the points cost of the unit

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Agreed. They same base rifle body is there with a new barrel, scope, magazine, and stock. I look at the bolt rifle as the same sort of thing as the M16/AR-15 family of rifles. There are sniper variants, carbines, and the like. The upper and lower receivers are largely unchanged, much like on the bolt rifle.

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Most of the weapons that Belisarius Cawl designed are very standardized. The difference between Bolt Rifles is often tiny, with a swap in magazine or scope. The difference in the Plasma Incinerators are similarly small, save for the Heavy option that has a backpack attachment. The bolt pistols that the Primaris range uses all share themes and styles that all seems to be based a short hop from the regular Bolt Rifle.

So, that said, I'd expect other variations that the Primaris use to be similarly standardized. I just hope we also get a few other types of weapons. There's a marine in the background that looks to be wielding some sort of heavy weapon with a big round barrel discharging some energy. I hope that it's either a Flamer or Melta equivalent, something to give the Primaris some extra punch against the things they struggle with.

Either way, I'm sure this will help shore up some of the weaknesses of All-Primaris armies. Would be great if the rumors are true and we finally get a light transport with them too.

 Nevelon wrote:
Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

Seems pretty underwhelming, so it's in line with how sniper weapons have been statted historically.

I won't bet against it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

Seems pretty underwhelming, so it's in line with how sniper weapons have been statted historically.

I won't bet against it.

It will probably be longer range and have better AP than that. The Stalker Bolt Rifle is AP-2, I would bet the new bolt sniper rifle will have a -2. Especially if these guys are elites. I don't know if the wounding on 2+ is necessary either. That is the point of the mortal wounds.