Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines

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**Gir Spirit Bane**

Latro_ wrote:
Whack Weaver of fates and cursed earth on a unit of tzeentch obilts or warp talons 3++ inv woo

Hey if loyalists get 2 point storm shields, why the hell shouldn't we join in on the fun?

**Annirak**

Asherian Command wrote:

You articulated my biggest gripe I had with the primaris range!

Thank you (yoinks).

To expand on this...

The Exaggeration as you say is missing from these miniatures which is a key part of 40k. Because thats what we have now with the Suppressors and Aggressors they just look silly, not really fitting in the grim dark universe. I give gak to the dreadknight, or dreadnought, or the centurion but at least they make sense, they are still based on something, and use a similar design. These new primaris units don't and they are missing the exaggeration on the whole image. Go all out if you want to exaggerate, if the suppressors had a giant jumppack and huge arms to heave the gun go ahead. But right now it looks silly and as id4chan puts it eloquently grimderpy.

Abaddon's model is fascintating because it is designed and exaggerated, the model has interesting body parts but who cares the model is stellar, its like people who say they love picasso's early work compared to his later work. Even though artistically and with originality people love Picasso's later works because they are exaggerations of the human form.

Getting the human form right is the hardest thing to do. So don't. Unless you want to measure everything in the golden ratio then the model will just look awkward without it.

I like the idea of giving Supperssors Inceptor backpacks, and Centurion arms (especially those pistons). I wonder if it would be possible to move the autocannon to a shoulder mount, but without a bigger torso and pauldrons, I don't think it works.

**Latro_**

FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine

he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.

**His Master's Voice**

Asherian Command wrote:
The Exaggeration as you say is missing from these miniatures which is a key part of 40k.

I'm sorry, but unintentionally hilarious crippling deformity does not count as exaggeration.

**topaxygouroun i**

If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

**Sunny Side Up**

Latro_ wrote:
FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine

he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.

Weak. Just go 3 Lord of Skulls and a Master of Possession.

**Latro_**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine

he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.

Weak. Just go 3 Lord of Skulls and a Master of Possession.

or a kytan with a 4+ inv healing an average of 6 wounds back a turn

**DaveC**

Hanskrampf wrote:
Do we have confirmed retailer prices yet?

£105 GBP
€135
$175 USD

**Eldenfirefly**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

Nah, How is that OP. Then your defiler wiffs because if its 4+ WS and you just spent a warpsmith, a possessed sorceror plus how many psychic powers just to buff it. Stack so many psychic/strategms on any killy unit and it becomes OP. Its not new. Like a Slam Captain can take down a knight if you stack psychic and strategems on him.

Combos are always good. CSM could do with more neat combos. But they are no more game breaking than say a Castellan warlod with a 4++ save going down to 3++ who can use Order of companies and on a Cawl's wrath to do obscene damage. There is no way CSM can get a 2++ save, its in the rules. Even getting a 4++ isn't easy and getting a 3++ probably needs some kind of inventive stacking, and yet, all the loyalists have to do to get 3++ all the time is to take a storm shield.

**topaxygouroun i**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

Nah, How is that OP. Then your defiler wiffs because if its 4+ WS and you just spent a warpsmith, a possessed sorceror plus how many psychic powers just to buff it. Stack so many psychic/strategms on any killy unit and it becomes OP. Its not new. Like a Slam Captain can take down a knight if you stack psychic and strategems on him.

Combos are always good. CSM could do with more neat combos. But they are no more game breaking than say a Castellan warlod with a 4++ save going down to 3++ who can use Order of companies and on a Cawl's wrath to do obscene damage. There is no way CSM can get a 2++ save, its in the rules. Even getting a 4++ isn't easy and getting a 3++ probably needs some kind of inventive stacking, and yet, all the loyalists have to do to get 3++ all the time is to take a storm shield.

Defiler in this setup has 8 attacks on 4+ rerolling 1's, and you can pay for daemonforge if you don't feel like that's enough for a 145 pt model. Said attacks are also str 18 (str 14 with the scourge) dealing d6 damage each, so with a death hex you can quite nicely completely kill said Castellan in a single turn with your 145 pt model. Thousand Sons have 10-12 spell casts in their core lists anyways. You really don't invest much more than what you already would in any other list, and a hth defiler clocks really really cheap. It also has a huge base - with two of them you can probably block whole quarters on the table and is a prime target for niche stuff like warpflame gargoyles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.

I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.

**Brometheus**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild.

Yes please, I would like a -3 AP Black Staff

**topaxygouroun i**

Brometheus wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild.

Yes please, I would like a -3 AP Black Staff

I don't think Sons characters will unlock Malefic, that would be too much (4 disciplines to pick from) even for Thousand Sons. But maybe the Master of Possession can be a THOUSAND SONS character.

If it's what you suggested... oh my god. Daemon Prince with diabolic strength and possession. 8 attacks, Ws2+ rerollable, str 9, ap-4, D2. Dude will be carrying lascannon hands.

**AduroT**

So I honestly don’t recall, and it doesn’t effect me since I’m Loyalist Marines, but does 40k make you pay points in advance for summoned models or are those Spawn and Greater Possessed from the psychic powers totally free?

**topaxygouroun i**

AduroT wrote:
So I honestly don’t recall, and it doesn’t effect me since I’m Loyalist Marines, but does 40k make you pay points in advance for summoned models or are those Spawn and Greater Possessed from the psychic powers totally free?

99% chance that you will have to reserve points for them in matched play. Which would make possession completely useless on the MoP itself, but maybe useful (for the -2ap) on a stronger hth caster like a Daemon Prince.

In a narrative play if Magnus could cast possession he could make two spawns for everything he kills in hth.

**Latro_**

story so far warhammer post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/shadowspear-focus-the-story-so-fargw-homepage-post-3/

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.

An army with a 3++ save would definitely have a lot going for it.

**topaxygouroun i**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.

Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?

Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.

How would you manage that? Rubrics, Tzaangors, Enlighened, all the sorcerers apart from Ahriman, scarab occult, the daemon engines, they all have a 5++ only. You could get cursed earth for 4++ only on the daemon engines and the enlighened and then you could have one unit only with a 3++ after you cast both your spells successfully.. Which I don't really see the problem with, given that GW apparently believes 3++ is worth 2 points a model.

I think people have the wrong idea about what a Thousand Sons list actually is.

**Tiberius501**

As a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'm saddened by the likelyhood of no new possessed other than the Greater possessed. But everything else so far for chaos looks mint af.

As a side note that's probably a terrible focus for the thread, anyone got any possessed conversion ideas?

**BrotherGecko**

Tiberius501 wrote:
As a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'm saddened by the likelyhood of no new possessed other than the Greater possessed. But everything else so far for chaos looks mint af.

As a side note that's probably a terrible focus for the thread, anyone got any possessed conversion ideas?

In the last Voxcaster podcast Jes Goodwin expressed "lesser" possessed being either something that they are working on, have done or want updated. I don't remember specifically what he said but it gave me the impression that you can reasonably expect possessed.

**Slayer-Fan123**

H wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.

I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.

Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.

It's more fun than anything.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
H wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.

I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.

Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.

It's more fun than anything.

Well it's actually quite good. You can summon A Herald and a unit of pink horrors. And casting cursed earth means we they all have a 3+ invul save. Not a bad unit.

**Sunny Side Up**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Well it's actually quite good. You can summon A Herald and a unit of pink horrors. And casting cursed earth means we they all have a 3+ invul save. Not a bad unit.

I don't think there are Pink Horrors with a Legion Keyword. They won't benefit from Cursed Earth.

**Latro_**

they could make normal chaos space marines less crap by making possessed a model upgrade e.g. 1 in 3 can be possessed. i might email GW

yea no cursed earth on normal daemons very clear on the <legion> bit on the powers and pure daemons even from the actual CSM codex don't have a legion keyword.

What i'm wondering if the incursion power allows you to move in the movement phase and summon? because you could do some interesting stuff if you don't have to of stayed still.

**Redemption**

Article up with the Daemonkin rules:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

**Mandragola**

Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

**ceorron**

Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

**stormcraft**

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

**Daedalus81**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Getting a guaranteed 3 Wounds back has to worth shanking a Warpsmith, surely?

Unless Warpsmiths are generally pretty pants, and this is not in fact reason enough to field one?

problems with that, A a warpsmith still is 55pts has a repair ability and a damage ability, he is versatile, the engine that you heal, not so much.

B: daemonengines are not really good enough in an allready more meh then good codex. Mostly due to bs 4 + degrading and bad pricing.

C: daemonengines also can self heal+ warpsmith, if you really want to keep it alive i will concede the point but still feels like a too high price.
Also only daemons engines not hellbrutes, etc.

Duuude. Venomcrawlers are nice.

Warpsmith, MoP, Greater Possessed, 3 Venoms - ~650 points.

30 T7 3+/4++ wounds. A VC in melee can heal D3 + 3 + 2 in one turn.

They kick off 6D3 S9 AP2 D3 shots - all assault so no move penalty while you work them toward combat. WS & BS do not degrade. Likely 4 / 3 / 2 on attacks, which means 12 S9 AP3 D3 plus 6 S7 AP2 D2.

Stick Abaddon, cultists, and maulerfiends in the mix and watch them slice and dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ceorron wrote:
Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

I will die if we get bikes, too.