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Maybe as a community we are not vocal enough with GW about tac marines and CSM... like they faq and sort a lot of stuff now... they must see from their tournament monitoring they go to the LVO FFS... no one takes these two units anymore... they're rubbish. perhaps they just dont know hoe to fix em.

fingers cross the new vig book has a nice detachment in it which does some CSM buffing like the last one did to centurions. Its sad but you can see why they down play tac marines with the new primrisi poster boys but CSM... you are releasing new sculpts of this unit that is at best a display shelf or modelling unit

Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

Y'know, that Abaddon sculpt is so good it almost de-legitimizes making any kind of positive argument for Guilliman being any kind of good. Side by side, Guilliman looks almost like he's from a different company.

 Elbows wrote:
Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.

Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.

 Elbows wrote:
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

The easy way to boost Chaos Space Marine effectiveness is to simply give them some sort of empowered by the dark gods ability that boosts their playability.

 Elbows wrote:
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.

I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...

That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.

If it actually did happen, of course.

And all of it hinges on if they fix the basic marine statline....which they almost certainly will not :(

You know, I don't think it does.

Statlines and game power fluctuates with the editions. A good model range can last you for 10-15 years. A real solid, flexible kit, with a good aesthetic, can set up a range for multiple editions to come.

If Chaos Marines got something as aesthetically solid as the 5th edition era ork stuff, that'd be jaw droppingly awesome.

I"m not saying they will, but there's enough being teased to have me excited about the possibilities for them.

Sotahullu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.

I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.

The game really favors units who do one thing exceptionally well over units who are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Tactical Squads and normal CSM guys are basically jacks of all trades. At least you can kit the CSM for melee and they are pretty ok at it, or give them two heavy/special weapons, which narrows their focus a little. The only way to make normal CSM better - aside from completely reworking the unit's purpose - is to lower their points cost. If you lower their points cost enough, they will find an equilibrium with Cultists.

 Darkseid wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.

Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.

Give them back meaningful Marks of Chaos that provide persistent stat boosts and/or rules. Outside of 1 or 2 stratagems/powers, Marks of Chaos at the moment may as well not exist

 Red_Five wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.

I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.

The game really favors units who do one thing exceptionally well over units who are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Tactical Squads and normal CSM guys are basically jacks of all trades. At least you can kit the CSM for melee and they are pretty ok at it, or give them two heavy/special weapons, which narrows their focus a little. The only way to make normal CSM better - aside from completely reworking the unit's purpose - is to lower their points cost. If you lower their points cost enough, they will find an equilibrium with Cultists.

The point you search is 10 ppm, because troops serve as mainly cp Provider for csm armies.
And no gw wont drop them down to that, which i am also not in favour off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.

Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.

Give them back meaningful Marks of Chaos that provide persistent stat boosts and/or rules. Outside of 1 or 2 stratagems/powers, Marks of Chaos at the moment may as well not exist

This would be the good Alternative.
But considering the streamlining i don't think will happen.

As a personal preference I always thought 40k CSM should be more elite than regular Space Marines. It bums me out that GW seems to be going the opposite direction, but like I said that's just my personal preference.

(I think I got that idea in my head when I first started in 3rd and was under the impression that most CSM were holdouts from the Horus Heresy and their corrupted geneseed was useless for making new Marines. I'm not sure if I was mistaken at the time or if the lore has changed over the last twenty years.)

One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.

Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.

So, why not spitball on this:

CSM: Marines Benefits

Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.

Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:

Gifts of the Dark Gods:

If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:

Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill

The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.

Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

Agreed. Cultists are not chaos space marines. They are not members of the Legions. Treating them as if they are messes things up really badly.

Cultists should exist, obviously. They should work a lot like GSC - in fact perhaps too much like them - making the two lists kind of dull. What they shouldn't do is make up 100% of all troops in CSM armies, while providing CPs and HQ slots to fill with daemon princes and special characters.

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

I agree with this, Cultists should basically come as they are, with maybe one inbuilt ability unique to them and any affect an Apostle adds. Otherwise, army traits shouldn't apply, they're not astartes.

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

Because a nerf ontop of a weak list is needed. Also you still have not solved the issue that players still won't field regular csm at their pricepoint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

Agreed. Cultists are not chaos space marines. They are not members of the Legions. Treating them as if they are messes things up really badly.

Cultists should exist, obviously. They should work a lot like GSC - in fact perhaps too much like them - making the two lists kind of dull. What they shouldn't do is make up 100% of all troops in CSM armies, while providing CPs and HQ slots to fill with daemon princes and special characters.

IW, WB and AL would vehemently disagree but sure.

 Togusa wrote:
One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.

Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.

So, why not spitball on this:

CSM: Marines Benefits

Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.

Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:

Gifts of the Dark Gods:

If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:

Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill

The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.

Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.

GW's counterpoint: there are newer CSM, and not just the Renegade Chapters either. Almost every legion at one time or another has received a major infusion of new space marines. That is what a basic CSM represent.

I agree with the sentiment the most typical CSM squad should be a veteran squad of sorts. You have CSM that have sold their souls to the ruinous powers, and have served and fought for them for 10,000 years... and yet they aren't even as capable as the loyalist marines that are lucky if they survive 100 years.

I don't think we need crazy rules for CSM squads to be worthwhile. With a few tweaks make them more like the Chosen.The veterans of 1000 battlefields with the flexibility that and picking up any weapon from the battlefield you want brings. It makes CSM a more elite army, as the legion forces should be.

If I was GW I would bring back marks of chaos and make them free upgrades. So CSM would get two sets of upgrades to buff them for free (MoC/LT). But I would require Troops to match warlord.

I would keep cultists out of both and daemon engines would only get the MoC.

I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.

On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.

Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.

One issue, where do you get the required cp from?
If you don't pull a GSC and f.e lower cp cost for specific csm stratagems if you target csm, you will be forced even more into cultists to get cp.

I think the basic CSM squad might just need to be replaced with the Chosen Squad.

 Red_Five wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).

Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.

However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.

The easy way to boost Chaos Space Marine effectiveness is to simply give them some sort of empowered by the dark gods ability that boosts their playability.

Or we remove the basic Chaos Marine entry and replace it with Chosen like it should've been already. Everyone should have minimum of Vet stats.

The Melific psychic list strongly indicates new mutilators (keynword cult of destruction and refers to fleshmetal weapons) and talks about a warpsmith. Not sure if there is a model for that now, but I am willing to be there will be a new one. No way GW would have new spells emphasizing old models.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.

On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.

Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.

And Cult Marines should have Vet stats minimum too. Plague Marines being in combat forever and then being scared is silly.

Kendo wrote:
The Melific psychic list strongly indicates new mutilators (keynword cult of destruction and refers to fleshmetal weapons) and talks about a warpsmith. Not sure if there is a model for that now, but I am willing to be there will be a new one. No way GW would have new spells emphasizing old models.

There are OLD OLD OLD models for each. I almost expect the official parts-built Obliterator to be able to be built as a Mutilator. Probably one per box (ouch!). Warpsmith has a finecast model, but they are a likely candidate for a new model. I am actually hoping for a new Chaos Lord miniature, to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.

Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.

I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.

On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.

Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.

And Cult Marines should have Vet stats minimum too. Plague Marines being in combat forever and then being scared is silly.

No argument there. I think you would see more Rubrics that way, though the Beta Bolter Discipline rule likely will help with that if it becomes a full-fledged rule.

 Togusa wrote:
One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.

The 3.5 'Dex did this with Veteran Skills. It was great.

That's what makes Chosen seem like a good option for Troops in the Chaos Undivided armies. They are the CSM that are the equivalent to the Tactical Marines in terms of experience. The bog-standard CSM Squad? That's your Scout alternatives. Sort of like how Space Wolves have two PA squads, the Blood Claws (who are the equivalent to the CSM Squad) and the Grey Hunters (who are the equivalent to Chosen).

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.

Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.

So, why not spitball on this:

CSM: Marines Benefits

Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.

Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:

Gifts of the Dark Gods:

If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:

Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill

The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.

Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.

GW's counterpoint: there are newer CSM, and not just the Renegade Chapters either. Almost every legion at one time or another has received a major infusion of new space marines. That is what a basic CSM represent.

I agree with the sentiment the most typical CSM squad should be a veteran squad of sorts. You have CSM that have sold their souls to the ruinous powers, and have served and fought for them for 10,000 years... and yet they aren't even as capable as the loyalist marines that are lucky if they survive 100 years.

I don't think we need crazy rules for CSM squads to be worthwhile. With a few tweaks make them more like the Chosen.The veterans of 1000 battlefields with the flexibility that and picking up any weapon from the battlefield you want brings. It makes CSM a more elite army, as the legion forces should be.

Do you like the table idea though for buffs? I really feel like the balance is good there, it lets you choose how you want each squad to function at the start of each game.

Can we skip on filling the news and rumor threads with house rule suggestions? They aren't really relevant.

This entire page is full of nothing about Vigilius and a lot of contradictory and random 'fixes'