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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to them moving to something more along the lines of the AoS chart and allies system and ditching the idea of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support and the Detachment system (with them going back to certain conditions moving units to Troops/Battle Line).

Was part of the problem in the past with units becoming Troops that it gave some armies Troops that were leaps and bounds better than others? (I'm thinking bikes with their 4++ in 7th.) Some armies will always have Troops that are better than some other armies, but I can see situations where that's not a very big deal and others where it makes for a bad game.

In 5th there was a lot of cases of Elites/Fast becoming troops. I don't remember it ever being something people complained about. Nob Bikerz and Paladins got complained about, but that was because of wound allocation, not because they could be made troops. It was a good mechanic and they ought to bring it back (or reform the CP system so that it doesn't need to.)

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to them moving to something more along the lines of the AoS chart and allies system and ditching the idea of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support and the Detachment system (with them going back to certain conditions moving units to Troops/Battle Line).

Was part of the problem in the past with units becoming Troops that it gave some armies Troops that were leaps and bounds better than others? (I'm thinking bikes with their 4++ in 7th.) Some armies will always have Troops that are better than some other armies, but I can see situations where that's not a very big deal and others where it makes for a bad game.

In 5th there was a lot of cases of Elites/Fast becoming troops. I don't remember it ever being something people complained about. Nob Bikerz and Paladins got complained about, but that was because of wound allocation, not because they could be made troops. It was a good mechanic and they ought to bring it back (or reform the CP system so that it doesn't need to.)

I agree with that sentiment.

For example you could take an entire army of bikes. Why? Cause you could.

Do you want sternguard as scoring units? go ahead just pick up a kantor!

Lots of great options in 5th.

Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/

 Virules wrote:
Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/

Lol yeah. But seriously, it's because given sufficient length, any discussion is going to converge back to the same few issues, because those are, well, the issues! All of this stuff is downstream of rules systems, so everything will always come back to that.

That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?

To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.

 Virules wrote:
Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/

Conversations develop as they go on. And who died and made you mod?

You want to talk about Shadow Spear some more? Ok then:

Having a psychic power discipline that limits casting to specific versions of Power Armour is stupid.

Discuss.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/

Conversations develop as they do on. And who died and made you mod?

You want to talk about Shadow Spear some more? Ok then:

Having a psychic power discipline that limits casting to specific versions of Power Armour is stupid.

Discuss.

I agree. Especially since there are several units that it would make sense to work on that it can't (Reivers, for example). I get that it is supposed to represent lighter armored Marines, but seriously, that limitation is dumb.

Also, looking at the Marines here, I don't see a good reason why the only Phobos units that can benefit from the Liberator Strike Force are the characters.

I don't get the course of this conversation... People ask for better CSM so they have reasons to play them and two posts later they are asking for a mechanic from 5th edition where you could use elite/FA units as troops to return

I like the actual sistem where troops are valuable and you feel compelled to use them. Maybe limit who can use the CP if you want (CP genererated by a codex can only be used by units of that codex or something similar) because that is the issue, and not all the CP sistem wich I like.

To me, the whole point of the CP boost to Battalions & Brigades was to encourage people to bring fluffy, troop based armies; previous editions tended to end up with two min sized squads of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the FOC tax and then let them take whatever meta death star was flavour of the month.

Problem is, as is widely known, people just use soup to take min sized detachments of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the CP tax and then let them take whatever meta death star is flavour of the month.

The only real option is to stop cross detachment sharing of CP. Or find a way to stop people being WAAC dicks

I know you put a smiley faces are the WAAC comment, but I don't think it's entirely the competitive mindset.

I hate the idea of an "Imperial" army that is Knights, the Loyal 32, and for some inexplicable reason 3 Custodes HQs running around smashing things, or two Blood Angel Captains with some minimal Scouts. I understand that the fluff and the rules often run contrary to one another (a major failing of 40K that has been around since its inception yet they seem oblivious too or just simply unwilling to try and fix), but as someone who has existed in both the competitive and fluff-bunny worlds, such armies just annoy me because the rules allow it to exist in the first place. They just don't make sense conceptually.

As for Shadow Spear, I think that we'll get a new Marine Codex (or Primaris Codex, or just a Vanguard Codex eventually) that includes Reivers and the like, gives them a Phobos Keyword, and lets the power affect them. It's still stupid, but at least it won't be quite as weirdly arbitrary.

zinch wrote:
I don't get the course of this conversation... People ask for better CSM so they have reasons to play them and two posts later they are asking for a mechanic from 5th edition where you could use elite/FA units as troops to return

It's almost as if people are brainstorming lots of different solutions to the same problem in collaborative effort.

How diabolical of them.

 Jadenim wrote:
To me, the whole point of the CP boost to Battalions & Brigades was to encourage people to bring fluffy, troop based armies; previous editions tended to end up with two min sized squads of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the FOC tax and then let them take whatever meta death star was flavour of the month.

Problem is, as is widely known, people just use soup to take min sized detachments of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the CP tax and then let them take whatever meta death star is flavour of the month.

The only real option is to stop cross detachment sharing of CP. Or find a way to stop people being WAAC dicks

Or just make Troops great again?

Remember the time were the common Space Wolves list took as many Troop choices as possible because they were the backbone of the army and worth taking?

GW wants Troops to be the bad tax people have to take to access the good stuff.
But those armies don't look like armies so they just tried to increase the minimum amount of units people need to take (and wrote the rules in a way that the minimum core tax doesn't look like a core tax is mandatory so people don't feel being forced to take it)

The whole problem would be solved if Troop choices were a real option to take and no additional rule would be needed to force people into them

People will always take the best units available as long as list building effects the outcome of the game, the same as TCG people will use the best cards available to build a deck.


Another solution would be to go back to smaller armies in general
Yes, reducing point will just make other options better and shift the meta in a different direction, but using an army size were choices don't matter as you can take one of everything make the problem just worse.
Using the cheap Brigade/Bataillone to get as much CP as possible to boost other stuff only works if there are enough points left to take something else.

Also points per model are way to low to really distinguish between options which is a known problem at the low end

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

As for Shadow Spear, I think that we'll get a new Marine Codex (or Primaris Codex, or just a Vanguard Codex eventually) that includes Reivers and the like, gives them a Phobos Keyword, and lets the power affect them. It's still stupid, but at least it won't be quite as weirdly arbitrary.

Well, I could seen them doing a full Vanguard release accompanied by an add-on book. Probably with some form of a vehicle. And then next year, we get a Gravis add-on book. I don't really see them doing an all new codex yet. Not when they can nickel and dime us on add-on codexes and THEN release an all new, full-blown codex.

Is there a release date for Abaddon at all (that is known to someone who comes here and that will share)?

There have been rumblings of his pre-order (alongside vigilus 2) going up on the 16th of this month. This is from a few FLGs in different parts of the world if I remember correctly so it seems pretty likely.

It would also mean that we should get a preview of that release this Sunday

PiñaColada wrote:
There have been rumblings of his pre-order (alongside vigilus 2) going up on the 16th of this month. This is from a few FLGs in different parts of the world if I remember correctly so it seems pretty likely.

It would also mean that we should get a preview of that release this Sunday

Thank you! I'd have much preferred a surprise pre-order this weekend but i'll take a March release (as I can only guess Vigilus will then be April's WD).

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only... tennis?



People are having a lot of fun with these releases.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only... tennis?



People are having a lot of fun with these releases.

A friendly grudge match between half brothers i guess.

It is a little on topic when it looks (still power armored models to come) for chaos like GW are committed to basic power armored CSM being rubbish and no new morsels of info have come out in a day or so to suggest otherwise. Its natural for people to have ideas. If ye after rumours/leaks consult the first post, which hasn't been updated in over a week XD.

The psypower for one make of power armour does seem odd, lazy almost. Like they'v got them selves in this kinda short release make new rules bubble.which will burst and become unmanageable like factions did in 7th.

maybe its all leading to 'end times 40k' can you imagine.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only... tennis?

People are having a lot of fun with these releases.

A friendly grudge match between half brothers i guess.

more like between weird uncle and his weirder nephew.

How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Spoiler:

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only... tennis?



People are having a lot of fun with these releases.

That is brilliant!

 Tiberius501 wrote:
How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.

It went about 12 months ago in the UK.

I remember a rumour about the price hike of cultists being more tied to an upcoming release than trying to achieve some sort of balance with other factions' cheap troops.

Don't know if that was pure speculation because of the weird gap created between cultists and guardsmen post CA or if CSM will get some sort of new cultist datasheet (and presumably models)

phillv85 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.

It went about 12 months ago in the UK.

That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.

Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.

It went about 12 months ago in the UK.

That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.

Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.

Possiably, one can hope although I suspect not. I kinda suspect we'll see cultists removed and rolled into a lost and damned codex

 alleus wrote:
That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?

To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.

I do not think we really know about CSM balance until we see the new CSM codex which appears to be coming.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.

It went about 12 months ago in the UK.

That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.

Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.

Look for alternatives, kitbash some gsc neophytes f.e. IG et all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Spoiler:

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only... tennis?



People are having a lot of fun with these releases.

12 times Billy you had one Job, 12 times not to switch abbad - on Billy! This is the 13 th time!

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 alleus wrote:
That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?

To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.

I do not think we really know about CSM balance until we see the new CSM codex which appears to be coming.

Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?

Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.

 Virules wrote:
Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/

Here’s the priority list for most 40k topics

1. Bitching about everything related to 40k
2. Fighting with other users over petty gak
2 1/2. Having to be “right” in every discussion, even over the most pedantic of things
3. Turning every topic into competitive tactics topics, then loopback to number 1 if something isn’t going to be viable (90% of the time)
....


..???. Actual topic


Anyways, I want to see Vanguard integrated into Killteam. I’d suck up my distaste for Primaris armor if the Space Marines can use Infiltrators instead of the ancient scout models.

 Geifer wrote:


Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?

Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.

Ah, right. I posted the exact wording over on B&C rather than here but the gist is that the CSM box and codex are both looking to be replaced.

"Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Squad are now removed from the B200b range and are no longer subject to compulsory re-order"