Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.
And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.
Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......
In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.
And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.
Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.
I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.
Well, an actual R&H book is our fetish buffet. The Hereticus Militarium thing gives a modicum of hope, but nothing I'm counting on.
I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.
No, my problem is twofold,
A: CSM are still not good enough to build a core.
Basically if you need to give out bonus cp up to guardstandards and a tide stratagems for people to maybee start considering running more then msu marines then the unit is just bad.
B: you don't fix the bad unit by making the decent Alternative worse to force people into taking the bad unit that now has a subfaction that might makes them competitively speaking playable.
As for traitor guard, no traitor guard do not fix the issue i have with the bad cultists atm.
My solution would've been to either lower the price back down to 4 ppm apply Mere Mortals and split AL agents out of the Cultists or would've left it at the Status quo.
Also R&H rules are written by the gw rules Team and if they would've wanted they could've easily fixed the issues they have and make them playable. They didn't, ergo i don't tust them to write the rules propperly enough for the army.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
The basic CSM squads have a fundamental problem with how they relate to Loyalist SM. You need 14-15 CSM to meet the statistical performance of tactical SM over the course of the game, but there is no way we'd ever get 11pt CSM. That price inefficiency makes Cultists that much more important. Now I'm sure the new rules help but I haven't run the numbers on the new rules, but I find it hard to imagine a drastic enough improvement. I think Red Corsairs giving CP, stands to be the best improvement of basic CSM, but that's a rather round about way to justify basic CSM. I hope the way it all plays out on the table top surprises me.
Don't be so ready to downplay CSM just because they are merely chaos marines. Having a CSM squad with a combi bolter (champion) and 1 guy using a reaper chain cannon kind changes things.
Now, at 24 inches and standing still, the squad is throwing out 8 shots of Str 5, AP -1 and 10 shots of Str 4. Such a squad costs 86 points. It doesn't seem that bad really, for a basic CSM squad.
On average each Marine is shooting 2 shots Str 4 and 1.6 shots of Str 5, AP -1. Not bad for mere marines huh. And they need to get though 4 marines to reach your reaper chain cannon.
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
I hated that part of the movie so much. Marine vs Marine and somehow the bad guys die in droves....just use cultists if you want cheap movie canon-fodder.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or I can use 6 Chosen with 5 Combi-Bolters and a Reaper for better effect.
As long as you're OK with your MEQ bodies being 17ppm instead of 13ppm with identical defenses and not having obsec.
Having obsec and providing CPs makes Troop slot units slightly less combat-effective than similar non-troop units at the same role.
If vets provided the same CPs that infantry provided it would be a complete no-brainer to run just vets, even just as lasgun mooks - they deal a significant amount more damage with their BS3 and only cost 1 point more.
More at 11.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 15:05:00
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or I can use 6 Chosen with 5 Combi-Bolters and a Reaper for better effect.
As long as you're OK with your MEQ bodies being 17ppm instead of 13ppm with identical defenses and not having obsec.
Having obsec and providing CPs makes Troop slot units slightly less combat-effective than similar non-troop units at the same role.
If vets provided the same CPs that infantry provided it would be a complete no-brainer to run just vets, even just as lasgun mooks - they deal a significant amount more damage with their BS3 and only cost 1 point more.
More at 11.
Chosen are 14 points. So that's 16 points when you add the Combi-Bolter. Otherwise known as 3 points for double the firepower and double the attacks (technically triple because free chainswords).
For CP, you can just use Renegades and Heretics for more durable bodies. Red Corsairs detachments already grant +1CP anyway, so it isn't like this is a grand bonus like you're making it out to be. 2 more CP for a statistically worse unit when I have other means to produce it? Nah.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either. And berserkers are obviously so good when they can advance and charge.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/26 15:39:31
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
VotLW, is basically the reason alone why CSM armies still are somewhat playable, so even the discussion about using Red Corsair CSM with a tide equivalent is for naught beyond the 15 little raidy CSM.
Objectives may become increasingly important, issue is if you can table your opponent beofre the objectives matter well yeah , i guess you can see where i am going with that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
VotLW, is basically the reason alone why CSM armies still are somewhat playable, so even the discussion about using Red Corsair CSM with a tide equivalent is for naught beyond the 15 little raidy CSM.
Objectives may become increasingly important, issue is if you can table your opponent beofre the objectives matter well yeah , i guess you can see where i am going with that.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Well, the tactics thread has been alive with tons of new combos, how old/new units can be used, etc etc. And I am excited about all the new potential new stuff that CSM gets. So, shrugs. I will just stick to enjoying all the new stuff coming out.
Feel free to be unhappy instead if that works for you.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions: No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army. . There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 16:12:21
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions:
No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army.
.
There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
I already stated they would need to be used like Conscripts and current Cultists. They're not good, but the best of a bad situation.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions:
No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army.
.
There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
I already stated they would need to be used like Conscripts and current Cultists. They're not good, but the best of a bad situation.
Then go for the 50 man mutant blob with enforcer back up. just "230" pts for one such combo.
maybee even pick a Psyker coven for a nigh guaranteed denial and unnatural vigour and a commander, that would be 815 pts.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
No, my problem is twofold,
A: CSM are still not good enough to build a core.
Basically if you need to give out bonus cp up to guardstandards and a tide stratagems for people to maybee start considering running more then msu marines then the unit is just bad.
B: you don't fix the bad unit by making the decent Alternative worse to force people into taking the bad unit that now has a subfaction that might makes them competitively speaking playable.
As for traitor guard, no traitor guard do not fix the issue i have with the bad cultists atm.
My solution would've been to either lower the price back down to 4 ppm apply Mere Mortals and split AL agents out of the Cultists or would've left it at the Status quo.
Also R&H rules are written by the gw rules Team and if they would've wanted they could've easily fixed the issues they have and make them playable. They didn't, ergo i don't tust them to write the rules propperly enough for the army.
100% in agreement. CSM are still unfortunate in this environment, and wrecking cultists is a terrible way to fix them. (I suspect it's because they're locked in to statting Marines the same across SM, CSM, and various specialists on the Marine side. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they realize but can't fix that issue, so are just working at internal corrections in CSM, and not that they don't see the power armor problem in the 8th competitive meta.)
I think that Mere Mortals and 4ppm is a definite step in the right direction, and there's precedent in factions for unevenly tagging units, like Iron Hands giving vehicles a buff.
And yeah, the R&H rules are just awful. It's the only reason I'm glad FW didn't try to make chapter tactics for theirs. They've attempted to balance some vehicles, but their army and character support has been just weak.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 18:02:35
Idk. I'm starting to think the normal 10-man CSM squad with 2 plasma guns might not be the worst thing in the world. Or give them two lascannons and park them next to a noctilith shrine and take alpha legion. They get the extra survivability that they need and lascannons pack a punch. With the new beta bolter rules, they can reach out and touch infantry too, and VotLW can help at least one squad wound.
The main issue for me was the lack of heavy weapon bits available to chaos marines, but now we will have those in the havoc box. I think its worth trying. Those squads will have a lot more offensive punch than any cultist squad at range at least.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!
It is certainly an option, problem is though, chosen ain't that great either.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Bharring wrote: Can't the same be said of Loyalists? When they're the protagonists, they're all highly qualified and capable. When they're not, they die like flies.
it's 40k bolter porn, everyone dies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 18:15:47
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Which happens for (almost) every faction. With a few key exceptions, the same force is either a powerful force to be reckoned with, or some comically outmatched shlub. Depending on the whim of the writer.
Have we had any price leaks on the Havocs or Terminators yet? I am guessing £25 for the Havocs and £30 for the Terminators but in light of recent price increases I am not sure.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Have we had any price leaks on the Havocs or Terminators yet? I am guessing £25 for the Havocs and £30 for the Terminators but in light of recent price increases I am not sure.
DaveC wrote:Price list is out
Terminators $60, £35, €45
Havocs $55, £32.50
USD and GBP prices are confirmed Havocs are either €40 or €42 depending on what rate they pick.
posted on the previous page this morning
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 18:34:17
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.
For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.
I don't think it would have made any sense to make these new Chaos Marines Primaris-sized, lots of people say things like "Primaris are just true-scale Marines!" but that idea has some pretty strange implications. Space Marine kits aren't quite accurate to their proper scale in relation to other models so yes, Primaris marines are closer to the scale they should have, but the problem with saying they're meant to be true-scale Marines is that they're just meant to be bigger than standard Space Marines. They have a lore reason for being a larger model as they have increased height compared to normal Space Marines. So at the moment Primaris Models are the right scale to represent Primaris marines, if Chaos Marines had been suddenly bought up to that scale then you'd just move the problem around and have wrongly scaled Primaris marines and recent models like in Blackstone Fortress still wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 19:52:17
